I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this into
my garden? What uses would it have

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

Phish, rather than disagree with you, let me ask a question as I am not sure
of the answer. Does the sawdust lose it "Nitrogen stealing" ability as time
goes by (meaning, is the C:N ration no longer 500:1)? Even after a year, if
it did get weaker, wouldnt it still be high in carbon? Still too high to be
placed in soil?

My initial response would have been to use it as a water retaining mulch.

Thanks in advance,
Fito

This sawdust has been weathering for years. I'll give it a try.
Thanks
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"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

Sawdust doesn't rob the soil of nitrogen, sawdust just temporarily reduces
the amount of nitrogen compounds available to the plant. The bacteria and
various other microorganisms that consume the sawdust use the nitrogen in
the soil to live. When these various microorganisms die, they release the
nitrogen back into the soil.

You didn't say if you were going to use this around ornamental plants or
vegetables. Is there a concern that some of the sawdust is from pressure
treated wood? If so there are chemicals in there, that aren't desirable
around food plants.

Sameer

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:11:43 -0400, "Fito"
wrote:


"Phisherman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

Phish, rather than disagree with you, let me ask a question as I am not sure
of the answer. Does the sawdust lose it "Nitrogen stealing" ability as time
goes by (meaning, is the C:N ration no longer 500:1)? Even after a year, if
it did get weaker, wouldnt it still be high in carbon? Still too high to be
placed in soil?

My initial response would have been to use it as a water retaining mulch.

Thanks in advance,
Fito


I can't provide a scientific answer to this, but here's what I know
first hand. I applied some sawdust (aged 2 months) to a blueberry
bush as a mulch, and it weakened the plant with loss of green color.
(Later, I revived the plant using MirAcid fertilizer.) The following
year, I reapplied sawdust which was aged for 14 months and this had no
adverse effects when used as a mulch. My assumption is that sawdust
aged enough declines in its nitrogen robbing properties. I am a
woodworker, so I have a lot of available "time-laddered" heaps that
are decomposing for use with blueberry and azalea bushes. The sawdust
is also good to use in muddy areas, horse stables, walking trails and
under decks. If new sawdust is mixed with grass clippings in a 50:50
mix, it makes an ideal start for a compost heap.

Hi Fito,

let me ask a question as I am not sure
of the answer.

I'm also not sure of the answer. g

Does the sawdust lose it "Nitrogen stealing" ability as time
goes by (meaning, is the C:N ration no longer 500:1)? Even after a
year, if
it did get weaker, wouldnt it still be high in carbon? Still too
high to be
placed in soil?

From what I read, it give me an impression:

All life need carbon as energy, and need nitrogen to grow and
reproduce. Life in the soil normally will be in maximum constrain by
the available carbon. When we mix sawdust to soil, the available
carbon will increase, those life in soil will start to use available
carbon from sawdust as energy to reproduce. When life in soil
reproduce, they get nitrogen they need from soil, so available
nitrogen in soil will reduce. These nitrogen will release to soil when
life in soil die and decompose.

Carbon in available form(sugar, starch...) are plenty in fresh
sawdust, it will lost when time passby. Carbon still remain in old
sawdust are those(cellulose, lignin...) that are not directly usable
by most of the life in the soil, so this will not cause the suddent
increase of soil life.

Adding sawdust to soil will temporary reduce available nitrogen(change
to organic form), but not reduce nitrogen from soil.

So for organic matter add to soil to improve soil structure, I will
prefer lignin than other form, since lignin last longer. And I
believe that clay humus created from clay plus lignin, are the best
humus.

Regards,
Wong

Folks:

1.) Be aware that the starting chemistry of the soil i questions and the
starting chemistry of sawdust both play a role in answering the original
post.
2.) C:N ratio is critical but can be misleading. For example, the C:N ratio
may be the same for raw sawdust added to soil and for highly composted
sawdust added to soil. One critical difference is with the latter a lot of
the C (carbon) will be accounted for in humic acids which are chemically
recalcitrant and do not really figure into the resources needed by soil
microbes. In raw sawdust most of the C is accounted for in long-chain
carbohydrates which are convertible.
3.) The use of sawdust to amended pH in blueberries is well established, but
bear in mind that blueberries are commercially grown only in certain soil
types. Thus, examples from that use may not extrapolate well to other (e.g.
more alkaline) soils
4.) Depending on the sawdust, one may actually make the soil more alkaline.

--
Mike LaMana, MS
Heartwood Consulting Services, LLC
Toms River, NJ
www.HeartwoodConsulting.net



"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:11:43 -0400, "Fito"
wrote:


"Phisherman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 18:30:07 -0400, "kyrustic"
wrote:

I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work
this
into
my garden? What uses would it have


Yes. If the sawdust was left outside for a year, then it can be
worked into the soil without concern about robbing nitrogen. It makes
a good mulch for tender shallow rooted plants such as blueberries and
azaleas.

Phish, rather than disagree with you, let me ask a question as I am not
sure
of the answer. Does the sawdust lose it "Nitrogen stealing" ability as
time
goes by (meaning, is the C:N ration no longer 500:1)? Even after a year,
if
it did get weaker, wouldnt it still be high in carbon? Still too high to
be
placed in soil?

My initial response would have been to use it as a water retaining mulch.

Thanks in advance,
Fito


I can't provide a scientific answer to this, but here's what I know
first hand. I applied some sawdust (aged 2 months) to a blueberry
bush as a mulch, and it weakened the plant with loss of green color.
(Later, I revived the plant using MirAcid fertilizer.) The following
year, I reapplied sawdust which was aged for 14 months and this had no
adverse effects when used as a mulch. My assumption is that sawdust
aged enough declines in its nitrogen robbing properties. I am a
woodworker, so I have a lot of available "time-laddered" heaps that
are decomposing for use with blueberry and azalea bushes. The sawdust
is also good to use in muddy areas, horse stables, walking trails and
under decks. If new sawdust is mixed with grass clippings in a 50:50
mix, it makes an ideal start for a compost heap.

How much of the "tons" are you planning to work into your soil???? How big
is your garden?

Vegetable or ornamental?

What type of soil you you have to start with? What effects are you
expecting from the sawdust application?

Have you done any soil testing?



I do use sawdust as a mulch on my asparagus. 10 years ago I started the bed
in sandy loam amended with rotted horse manure. Rather than "trench" the
bed, I started from seed and transplanted at the soil level. I then built a
low rock wall around the bed, about a foot high. Mulch has been added
rather "at will" over the course of the years and now the bed is full to the
top of the wall. The mulch has been primarily sawdust, leaf-litter, wood
ashes, coffee grounds, compost when available, and an annual sprinkling of
whatever garden fertilizer I have on hand.

The coarse, friable nature of the mulch makes weeding the asparagus bed in
spring a quick, easy job. Any weeds that encroach are shallow rooted and
easily yanked. The asparagus roots are 14+" below the surface, I'd need a
backhoe to get them out now.


--
Breeze ( sue burnham)
"kyrustic" wrote in message
...
I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Support American Families, Buy Made In USA!
Kentucky Rustic Barrels
http://www.KentuckyRustic.com

"kyrustic" wrote in message ...
I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this into
my garden? What uses would it have

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Support American Families, Buy Made In USA!
Kentucky Rustic Barrels
http://www.KentuckyRustic.com

It would be a fair mulch. It would be an awesome ingrediant in
composting things like fish wastes dead animals and chicken manure.
Worked into the soil it would provide organic material (mostly carbon)
but you would need to provide some supplemental nitrogen to the crop.

For the benefit of newbies out there--do NOT do this with pressure-treated
lumber sawdust!

philosopher


"kyrustic" wrote in message
...
I have access to tons of very old saw dust. Would it be ok to work this
into
my garden? What uses would it have

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Support American Families, Buy Made In USA!
Kentucky Rustic Barrels
http://www.KentuckyRustic.com

"Mike LaMana" fake@MikeatHeartwoodConsultingdotnet wrote in message ...
Folks:

1.) Be aware that the starting chemistry of the soil i questions and the
starting chemistry of sawdust both play a role in answering the original
post.
2.) C:N ratio is critical but can be misleading. For example, the C:N ratio
may be the same for raw sawdust added to soil and for highly composted
sawdust added to soil. One critical difference is with the latter a lot of
the C (carbon) will be accounted for in humic acids which are chemically
recalcitrant and do not really figure into the resources needed by soil
microbes. In raw sawdust most of the C is accounted for in long-chain
carbohydrates which are convertible.

This is against my experience. My front flower bed, for example, has
only received one foot of woodchips since 1996, and its N content is
OK, and the plants growing in it show no sign of being N-deficient.
The surrounding soil is extremely N-poor. I must conclude that
decomposing wood absorbs nitrogen from the atmosphere.

3.) The use of sawdust to amended pH in blueberries is well established, but
bear in mind that blueberries are commercially grown only in certain soil
types. Thus, examples from that use may not extrapolate well to other (e.g.
more alkaline) soils
4.) Depending on the sawdust, one may actually make the soil more alkaline.

could you comment on this, as well as point 1)? How is the sawdust
chemically different?


--

Hi simy1,

The surrounding soil is extremely N-poor.

I assume it's a sandly soil and lack of organic matter to buffer
nutrient.

I must conclude that
decomposing wood absorbs nitrogen from the atmosphere.

Some bacteria will fix nitrogen from the air, provided there is carbon
available as energy. The carbon can get from exchange from legume, or
directly from soil. When the bacteria die and decompose, nitrogen will
release and available by plant. Some nitrogen will come from storm.
All this will return to air if there is nothing to hold it.

A lot of nutrient are keep in soil in life form, semi-decompose dead
body, either plant or animal. This act as nutrient bank that buffer
nutrient.

One thing I'm not quite clear, can fungus be group into plant, and
bacteria into animal?

Regards,
Wong

"nswong" wrote in message
...

(snip)

One thing I'm not quite clear, can fungus be group into plant, and
bacteria into animal?

Regards,
Wong


My understanding is that neither fungi nor bacteria fall into the plant or
animal kingdoms in a five kingdoms naming system, (they each would
reside in separate kingdoms). In a three divisions naming system,
plants, animals and fungi would be described as belonging to the same
domain.

Regards.

Hi eclectic,

My understanding is that neither fungi nor bacteria fall into the
plant or
animal kingdoms in a five kingdoms naming system, (they each would
reside in separate kingdoms). In a three divisions naming system,
plants, animals and fungi would be described as belonging to the
same
domain.

Thanks for your clearing. :-)

So my previous sentence should read as:

A lot of nutrient are keep in soil in life form, semi-decompose dead
body, either plant/animal/fungi/bacteria or protozoa. g

Thanks,
Wong