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George Orwell 28-05-2004 01:03 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Don Phillipson 28-05-2004 01:03 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
"George Orwell" wrote in message
...

Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Human CJD has been attributed to eating
beef contaminated with brain or spinal cord
material (where the harmful prions live.) If
you do not eat garden bone meal, you
need not fear it as a disease vector.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)



William Wagner 28-05-2004 02:02 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
In article ,
George Orwell wrote:

Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Take peak at

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopic...d=HOOGIMOCHNGF

On a rainy day!

Bill

--
"No Progress without contraries" William Blake.

paghat 28-05-2004 09:02 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
In article , George Orwell
wrote:

Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten, but all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal. It is believed they
inhaled the initial prion infection while spreading bone meal in their
gardens.

Agricultural lobby & spin doctors have hired scientific spokespersons to
state pretty much "there is no evidence that BSE can infect humans by
inhaling bone meal." The guys hired to say this usually have five or six
degrees in science, but never did any actual studies, & get paid by
Agribusiness which uses bonemeal.

It remains that the four cases in England have never been explained by any
alternative theory, since those four gardeners had not been exposed to
infected meat.

It is also not being studied to what degree the BSE prions can be
absorbed, unaltered, into edible tubors & plants --thus entering the food
chain even for vegetarians. It is theoretically possible, but it isn't
being studied, so there is no evidence one way or the other.

The prions have reached the bone meal product by several methods. While it
is no longer legal to put infected sheep & cattle meat in feeds for dogs,
cats, pigs, or cattle, it is still legal to make a rendering product from
waste meats that are not to be used as animal feeds. BSE infects game
animals in the United States, especially elk, & these end up at rendering
plants as roadkill. They also render sheep, the most commonly infected
farm animals in the United States. Lastly, while it is widely believed
that chickens cannot be infected, some scientists speculate that chickens
have "safely" eaten prion-infected feeds merely because their lifespans
are too short for the infection to injur them -- but the prions could
nevertheless be in their brainstem & spine, & rendered chicken meal could
also be a source of the prions.

And the rendering plant industry is self-regulating (meaning largely
unregulated). On the rare occasion when anyone ever checked to see if
self-regulation worked, the vats obviously had everything from zoo animals
& roadkill to dog & cat carcasses from animal control & run-over racoons,
with wildlly inadequate methods of monitoring which end-product batch gets
labeled liver meal or chicken meal or beefmeal allegedly suitable to feed
even pets -- & you can bet they care even less what goes into their
garden-grade garbage. Not much in the news was an American recall of
Canadian pet foods found to be contaminated by BSE prions, but if anyone
thinks they're more careful in say Milwaukee than in Alberta, they're
kiddin' themselves.

Because the risks of bone meal in garfdening is not being studied for
publication in peer-review contexts, it is possible to say there is no
definitive evidence of risk, & fail to mention no one is looking for the
evidence because vested parties fund such research & can pick & choose
what suits agribusiness best. And those four British cases remain a
haunting answer to any Agribusiness spin about it all beikng unproven. One
of these victims reportly "never wore a mask & used to grind up the soil
& make a big cloud of dust" when adding bonemeal to his rose garden, & was
exposed to it on many occasions over a great length of time. The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! -- but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers. That fact doesn't qualify as a
"study" so agribusiness dismisses the cases as unproven, & will certainly
never admit how extremely likely it is.

In a garden that is not used for harvested vegetables, & if a gardener
wears a high-end face mask while spreading bonemeal (not one of those
worthless felt paper mouth guards), the possibility of risk would seem
largely to be mitigated. Not that I've ever seen a gardener with even one
of the worthless felt-paper face guards which stop nothing from going up
the snout, let alone an industrial grade real-deal filter mask.

But even if it were reasonable to assume it is safe to breathe in bone
meal while fertilizing the garden, I would not use it. I do not want to
look at my gardens & have to think, "I've sprinkled rendered animals all
over that."

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

escapee 28-05-2004 03:03 PM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 00:21:22 +0200 (CEST), George Orwell
opined:

Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


I don't know that data, but soft rock phosphate is far better for soil than is
bone meal and seaweed is far better for soil than is blood meal.

....as an aside.

V


Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

Janet Baraclough.. 28-05-2004 09:03 PM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , George Orwell
wrote:


Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten, but all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.


Some of the victims were vegetarians. I have not heard that all the
vegetarians were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.

The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! --


Er, for the benefit of others who may not know..Paghat is joking. No
single source of infected meat was identifiable.

but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers.


That theory has not been publicised in Britain afaik, so could you
provide a source for it please?

Janet.

Brian 29-05-2004 12:03 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , George

Orwell
wrote:


Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential

for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a

soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact

with
the stuff.


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten, but

all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.


Some of the victims were vegetarians. I have not heard that all the
vegetarians were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.

The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! --


Er, for the benefit of others who may not know..Paghat is joking. No
single source of infected meat was identifiable.

but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers.


That theory has not been publicised in Britain afaik, so could you
provide a source for it please?

Janet.


The most recent [ West of England Medical School-pub. May2004] research
suggests that eating meat might very well have little or no relevance~~ the
prion being capable of withstanding autoclaving of instruments.
The work has shown that removed tonsils and appendixes from healthy
patients show a significant [but small] proportion having the prion. The
proportion, when extrapolated, means there are several thousand carriers of
vCJD who could have contaminated others, or been contaminated, via contact
with affected, but supposedly sterilised, instruments. It is not known if
these will eventually succumb to vCJD or even if this is 100% related to
BSE.

I suppose I should take precautions when using bone meal but I'm always
too busy to bother.
Others suggest that if I did get 'mad cow disease' they would notice little
difference~~and they are my friends!!
Brian.




paghat 29-05-2004 12:05 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
In article , Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , George Orwell
wrote:


Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten, but all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.


Some of the victims were vegetarians. I have not heard that all the
vegetarians were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.

The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! --


Er, for the benefit of others who may not know..Paghat is joking. No
single source of infected meat was identifiable.


By no means a joke. Deaths from e-coli & mad cow is why they are so often
called McDeath or McDisease, serving Big McBrain & McPoo burgers.

Most or all the UK cases were from meats processed by McKey Food
Corporation under contract to McDonalds. McDeadly was where victims
purchased the greater percentage of beef in their diets. McDonalds became
McLibel trying to sue people into shutting up about it; they didn't care
if they won or lost the suits, which were intended to be costly for their
foes. The suits were defined as "strategic lawsuits to stop public
activism" & succeeded in frightening even news agencies into mentioning
it, because short of a doubleblind independent study (which was never
going to happen) no proof could ever be proof enough, & McLibel would sue
& sue & sue & become the biggest nuisances on earth. Newspapers would
rather have McDonald's advertising dollars rather than be the target of
another of McDonald's Strategic Suits Against Public Activism, so they
won't harp on the connection.

But somehow in their suit-happy mood McDonalds never had the nerve to sue
Eric Schlosser who documented McDonald's role in spreading diseases to
people, because that's stuff that won't help them once it is quoted
thereafter from sworn court testimony.


but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers.


That theory has not been publicised in Britain afaik, so could you
provide a source for it please?


It was reported on Dateline in August 20, 1997, that four victims in UK of
the human form of Mad Cow were not meat eaters, but had been exposed to
bonemeal in their gardening practices. It was also in numerous newspapers
at the time. The Dateline report had the daughter of one of the victim
describing her father in his rose garden stirring up a veritable cloud of
bonemeal dust. Doubtlessly it was in UK newspapers just as commonly at the
time. But public memory is short, & when a new Associated Press article
does appear as a reminder (such as by Rukmini Callimachi this past
December, in the wake of a new mad cow scare) who really reads the
newspapers these days? Callimachi reported that only THREE
non-meat-eating gardeners died, but previous articles always say it was
four; there's always absolute agreement they were gardeners who used
bonemeal, & had no other possible point of exposure to the deadly prions.

In consequence of these facts, the British Royal Horticutural Society
recommen ds that bonemeal users never use bonemeal without a facemask. The
utter uselessness of the sorts of masks you can buy in nearest hardware
store, unfortunately RHS failed to note that.

After the mad cow scare last year here in Washington state (thanks to
infected cows brought in from Canada making it into the human foodchain) a
number of safety measures were put into place that never existed before,
& which even now have no enforcement system. The recalls included bonemeal
products using cowparts, & also soaps. One federal inspector said that
there were so many niche markets for the secondary leavings of diseased
cattle that it was impossible to recall all of it. Several distributors of
this deadly garbage "voluntarily" withdrew bonemeal & tallow products from
the given time-period of BSE known to be in the product chain, but
volunteering was just a trick to guarantee the government would not in the
future harrass anyone with any new laws with teeth or enforcement of any
kind. It remains a self-regulating industry, & cleaning up their act is
strictly a matter of public relations.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl:
http://www.paghat.com

William Wagner 29-05-2004 01:02 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
In article ,
"Brian" wrote:

Others suggest that if I did get 'mad cow disease' they would notice little
difference~~and they are my friends!!
Brian


Bill is too!

--
"No Progress without contraries" William Blake.

Pete 29-05-2004 01:04 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:53:19 +0100, I found this from Janet
Baraclough.. :

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:

In article , George Orwell
wrote:


Does anyone know of any research that has been done on the potential for
contracting mad cow disease from using bone meal or blood meal as a soil
amendment for veggies or herbs. That is, assuming no direct contact with
the stuff.


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten, but all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.


Some of the victims were vegetarians. I have not heard that all the
vegetarians were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.

The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! --


Er, for the benefit of others who may not know..Paghat is joking. No
single source of infected meat was identifiable.

but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers.


That theory has not been publicised in Britain afaik, so could you
provide a source for it please?

Janet.


Once again your head is up your arse.

Will 29-05-2004 03:03 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:38:50 -0700, I found this from
(paghat) :

Most or all the UK cases were from meats processed by McKey Food
Corporation under contract to McDonalds.


According to my son, a medical microbiologist with a keen interest in
BSE, your stuff is spot on. It is worth pointing out that a fairly
tight cluster was discovered in and around a small village in
Leicestershire. Research has been completed there but longitudinal
research is I am told still in progress.

After the first published report of BSE was drawn to my attention, I
think it was in The Veterinary Record in 1987, October 31, I may well
be a bit out here, I stopped using bone meal and blood. Most of my
rose growing buddies haven't used it now for years. The few who do
only apply it in the rain and looking like space men! I did get a bit
of a ribbing at the time, not know. I took quiet satisfaction in
drawing their attention at the time to the case of the gardeners
mentioned by paghat. If I recall rightly it was widely discussed at
the time.

In reply to your question

who really reads the newspapers these days?


I have to ask can we believe the newspapers these days?

Will


Janet Baraclough.. 29-05-2004 05:02 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
The message
from (paghat) contains these words:


Four cases in Great Britain were not traceable to any meat eaten,
but all
four were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.


Some of the victims were vegetarians. I have not heard that all the
vegetarians were inveterate gardeners who used bonemeal.

The majority
of Britain's human cases ate at MacDonalds -- MacDonalds was the sole
source of the contaminated meat! --


Er, for the benefit of others who may not know..Paghat is joking. No
single source of infected meat was identifiable.


By no means a joke. Deaths from e-coli & mad cow is why they are so often
called McDeath or McDisease, serving Big McBrain & McPoo burgers.


Most or all the UK cases were from meats processed by McKey Food
Corporation under contract to McDonalds. McDeadly was where victims
purchased the greater percentage of beef in their diets.


Sorry, that's wrong. No such link has ever been made.

New-variant CJD in people is thought to incubate for years before
showing symptoms. One of the first symptoms is mental deterioration. For
those two reasons it would be impossible to verify in detail the entire
meat-eating history of any victim and conclude that one particular
brandname was the source of "most or all of the UK cases".


but four victims were evidently
exposed only to bone meal fertilizers.


That theory has not been publicised in Britain afaik, so could you
provide a source for it please?


It was reported on Dateline in August 20, 1997, that four victims in UK of
the human form of Mad Cow were not meat eaters, but had been exposed to
bonemeal in their gardening practices.


Doubtlessly it was in UK newspapers just as commonly at the
time.


Not that I recall.

But public memory is short, & when a new Associated Press article
does appear as a reminder (such as by Rukmini Callimachi this past
December, in the wake of a new mad cow scare) who really reads the
newspapers these days? Callimachi reported that only THREE
non-meat-eating gardeners died, but previous articles always say it was
four; there's always absolute agreement they were gardeners who used
bonemeal, & had no other possible point of exposure to the deadly prions.


Surely you do not accept "press reports", or the Associated Press, as
bastions of accredited research? Whose research was s/he quoting from?

IIRC only one person who died from CJD, was claimed to be a lifelong
vegetarian. IOW others who were vegetarians at the time they developed
symptoms, had earlier eaten meat.

I think it unlikely that any creditable scientist would consider that
erstwhile carnivores had "NO other possible exposure" to infected prions
other than bonemeal inhaled in the garden, given that it's now thought
nv-CJd is medically transmissible between people.

Janet.






Dave Gower 29-05-2004 10:02 PM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 

"Will" wrote

According to my son, a medical microbiologist with a keen interest in
BSE, your stuff is spot on.


May I respectfully suggest, Will, that regardless of your son's opinion, a
discussion of a disease acquired by eating at a restaurant is off-topic on a
gardening newsgroup. The original question, whether bonemeal fertilizer is a
threat, is more related, and as usual Paghat's response is fabricated
nonsense.



paghat 29-05-2004 11:05 PM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
In article , "Dave Gower"
wrote:

"Will" wrote

According to my son, a medical microbiologist with a keen interest in
BSE, your stuff is spot on.


May I respectfully suggest, Will, that regardless of your son's opinion, a
discussion of a disease acquired by eating at a restaurant is off-topic on a
gardening newsgroup. The original question, whether bonemeal fertilizer is a
threat, is more related, and as usual Paghat's response is fabricated
nonsense.


Actually it's dead-on on-topic that gardeners should know the evidence of
four out of 50 deaths effected gardeners through use of bonemeal, the rest
through eating at Mcdonalds. Those are FACTS and only
blind-with-head-in-shit-pile fools won't even consider the facts of the
matter. It's also dead-on on-topic that the Royal Horticultural Society
recommends never using bone or blood meal without wearing a mask because
of the risk of BSE exposure. Even the type of head-in-shitpile fool who
won't believe in reality should be able to tell that's on-topic.

Your pal,
paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Janet Baraclough.. 30-05-2004 12:02 AM

Bone/ Blood Meal and Mad Cow Disease
 
The message
from "Brian" contains these words:

The most recent [ West of England Medical School-pub. May2004] research
suggests that eating meat might very well have little or no relevance~~ the
prion being capable of withstanding autoclaving of instruments.


Exactly.

The work has shown that removed tonsils and appendixes from healthy
patients show a significant [but small] proportion having the prion. The
proportion, when extrapolated, means there are several thousand carriers of
vCJD who could have contaminated others, or been contaminated, via contact
with affected, but supposedly sterilised, instruments.


Or via blood donations. In the UK, people who recieved a transfusion
during the early 80s are banned from donating blood. Some countries no
longer import any human blood products from the UK.

Janet








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