"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...
If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper
for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........
lazy
gardening.

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years
ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with
newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me
not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Well, Wong stated very good reasons and I agree with them, so I won't
repeat them here. I went to totally organic, lasagna gardening two years
ago, and my flower beds have never been better and have few weeds. It's all
in feeding the soil and feeding the earthworms. Plastic landscape fabric
defeats all those good things from happening.
And, I do much less work, since I just throw a new layer of mulch on top
and don't even work it in, just like Nature does. This retains the basic
soil structure and doesn't disturb all the biological organisms.

"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Thanks for the excellent analysis. I couldn't have said it better myself.

wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

-j


"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Almost all newspaper in this country is printed with soy based ink.
Personally, I'm not crazy about the newspaper idea, but you could do much
worse things to yourself than use it as mulch.

"jay" wrote in message
...
wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

-j


"nswong" wrote in message
...
"Jay Chan" wrote in message
om...

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question,
people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't
know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. g So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper
instead
of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using
newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble
of
putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all
the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric
should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason
of
using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to
understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the excellent analysis. I couldn't have said it better
myself.

Thanks for your compliment. :-)

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

"jay" wrote in message
...

wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ?
Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

Nowaday, most ink use for newspaper are soy based. :-)

Look at the Google search result below.

At my impression, for weeds management, mulch are mostly relate to
no-till, organic are heavy tillage with machinary. But there is
something call organic no-till, that is relied on heavy/deep mulch.
But I may be wrong. g

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Google Search: mulch newspaper soy Web Images Groups
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Web Results 1 - 10 of about 592 for mulch newspaper soy. (0.13
seconds)

Newspapers as mulch material
.... June 14, 1998. Editors note: I've asked every newspaper I ever
used
as mulch what they used as ink and they all said soy based. ...
supak.com/mort/newspapers.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Gardening - Five Must-Have Ingredients for the Organic Gardener's ...
.... most newspapers are now printed with soy-based inks ... use this
method is
to place the
newspaper or cardboard ... springtime, the weeds are dead, the mulch
has
degraded ...
www.pioneerthinking.com/tv-organictoolkit2.html - 30k - Cached -
Similar pages

Good Enough to Eat: Using paper as mulch is colored by several ...
.... The PI uses soy-based colored inks; you can call ... Typically,
they're not
printed by
the newspaper, and their ... shredded office paper or newsprint work
as a mulch?
....
seattlepi.nwsource.com/ nwgardens/163035_goodtoeat04.html - 21k -
Cached -
Similar pages

Marvelous Mulches | NRCS
.... organisms. Straw, shredded newspaper (soy-based ink only), and
grass
clippings are popular mulches that decompose easily. Popular ...
www.nrcs.usda.gov/feature/backyard/mrvmulch.html - 12k - Cached -
Similar pages

Newspaper Mulch/add nitrogen? . ...
.... I'd like to mention soy-ink newspaper in an article I'm writing
about mulch
and
weed control, but won't be able to if I can't address the issue of
whether ...
www.ibiblio.org/rge/archive/970828_2970.html - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages

newspaper mulch
... The use of newspaper as a mulch may or may not be "organic"
because
... Most black
ink used in most newspaper is soy based which would probably be OK
....
www.ibiblio.org/rge/archive/980523_9875.html - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages
[ More results from www.ibiblio.org ]

The New Homemaker: Merits of Mulching
.... kind of ink they use. Soy based newspaper inks are nontoxic, and
fine to use for mulching. Because newspaper by itself is light ...
www.newhomemaker.com/hands/garden/mulch.html - 23k - Cached - Similar
pages

Links to General Emergency Preparedness Information presented by ...
.... herb + More cake-in-a-jar recipes + Newspaper Logs + Oil ... y2k
phone tip +
Potatoes
in the mulch + Smells in ... soya grits + Solar water distilling + Soy
cakes +
Soy ...
www.instantknowledgenews.com/P134.HTM - 78k - Cached - Similar pages

How do you recycle newspaper
.... With the advent of soy and other natural inks, papers can be
utilized for
.... Another
way to recycle newspapers is in the garden, using the newspaper as
mulch. ...
utut.essortment.com/newspaperrecycl_piz.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar
pages

The Value of Mulching Plants
.... I would like this to be used. Are you interested in this? "Dear
student,
I do not use newspaper mulch unless the ink is soy ink and safe. ...
http://www.organic-growers.com/forum...Question34.htm - 5k - Cached -
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"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news
Personally, I'm not crazy about the newspaper idea, but you could do
much
worse things to yourself than use it as mulch.

I never try newspaper, but from what I read, I believe it's good for
organic no-till home gardenning. Old newspaper are available to
nearly
each home, using as a mulch are another choice from recycle, and far
better than go to landfill.

I don't using it because I'm going to large scale and sustainable, and
will try to avoid any external input. Instead of buying some old
newspaper, I prefer use plant debris from my land as mulch.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:284943

"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper' (not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate, plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary. However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in 5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

Hi Salty Thumb,

I start learnning agriculture by year 2001, that is after I went back
to my hometown and deal with my land.

In my learnning progress, I do read a lot. Most of the articles I read
are contrary with other articles. And it's hard to test it up who are
correct.

I do read before from some articles that talk about the views bring up
by you. But for going to sustainable and without bring in external
input(landscape fabric), I tend to remember those comment that say bad
words to landscape fabric. g

I'm not reach the level to able to tell which one are correct by now,
but will grad to find it out if it does not cost too much of effort.
Since I will not going to use landscape fabric, if you can share your
personal experience with me(not those you read from), I'm grateful to
this. :-)

I'm going off to my land now, will reply you when I'm back.

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m


"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper'
(not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust
at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the
amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the
weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling
plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much
a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7
worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by
roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause
pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or
else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid
form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old
newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape
fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way
through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the
top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or
look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary.
However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can
be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric
that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there,
add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it
can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this
will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time
for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

Hi Salty Thumb,

After the second pass read though your message, I'm afraid that I can
only reply you in very short form. Due to my bad English, I had
problem in spelling and phasing my words, it do take great effort for
me to write in English. Sorry about that. :-(

"Salty Thumb" wrote in message
...
"nswong" wrote in
:

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment.
Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper'
(not
necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust
at
100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the
amount of
N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the
weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of
N available to a plant. .

It depend on the carbon are in what form. If it's sugar or starch, it
do. If it's lignin or cellulose, the effect should be unnoticeable.
Newspaper are compose mostly by cellulose.

Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed
blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates

Adding N will not always speed up the decompostion. It really depend
on situation.

Mulch supress weeds not just because the physical blocking ability, it
can also leach out some chemical harm weeds. Critters in mulch will
also help to supress weeds.

But to me, I will never add N to the mulch

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited
value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate,
plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated
carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may
have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to
deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects
and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

Yes, here the soil amendment I'm refer to improve soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape
fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate
minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic
effect[3].

I believe N fixed by bacterial using carbon as energy in orgainc mulch
will do a better job.

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric.
To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

For this I do facing problem to explain my view. In bussiness, we talk
about total cost of ownership. In here we talk about in the total life
span of the product, how much cost involve and how much the return
get.

For this, I'm not know enough to provide a view. Sorry about that.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm
[3] http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Thanks for the links, I will look at it later. :-)

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling
plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much
a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7
worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm
[5] http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open
their
covered burrow (quite possibly true)

A few sheet of newspaper will not block earthworm.

But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to
use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share
nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during
extensive rain[5].

I'm quite sure landscape fabric significantly reduce earthworm
population.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by
roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause
pooling
until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be
uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to
both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block
water than the fabric.

Look at all short of filter we use, they all block. Do a test, remove
the mulch on top of your landscape fabric, put some water on top of
it, see how long it will pass through.

Mulch have critters making tunnel in it, except there is little
critter in it.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters.
Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or
else
only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid
form,
but not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

I'm refer to those nutrien that resolve in water as liquid form.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old
newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done!
Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape
fabric on
top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way
through
landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the
top
of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or
look
for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary.
However,
if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can
be
repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the
existing fabric).

No comment. g

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric
that
have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in
5-15
years at least.

From what I read, if landscape fabric are expose to sun, will not last
long.

Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric
is of
minor difficulty.

From what I read, those user of landscape fabric donot take it as
"minor difficulty". g

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there,
add
some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it
can
last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this
will
not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time
for
planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

No comment. g

Sorry, I'm getting a bit impatience. :-(

Sorry,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Thanks for taking the time to explain the benefits of using newspaper.

I didn't know that the landscape fabrics can prevent earthworms from
living under it. This really makes me pause.

I will have to think this through. Honestly, I don't really know what
to do at this point. I am sure I will think of something.

Thanks again.

Jay Chan

Jay, I've asked you a number of times how much work to expect to do on your
garden on a weekly or monthly basis, but you haven't responded. Would you
care to do that now?

"Jay Chan" wrote in message
m...
Thanks for taking the time to explain the benefits of using newspaper.

I didn't know that the landscape fabrics can prevent earthworms from
living under it. This really makes me pause.

I will have to think this through. Honestly, I don't really know what
to do at this point. I am sure I will think of something.

Thanks again.

Jay Chan

Newspaper will decompose gradually, and if you want to add solid
"amendments", like compost, before the newspaper breaks down completely, all
you have to do is poke holes in it with your garden fork.

Seem like a good idea. I assume the earthworm living in the soil will
take care of pulling organic material from the surface to inside the
soil. This means I don't need to actually work the amendments into the
soil. Great!

Jay, I'm curious about two things:

1) In any given week, how many hours of work do you think is appropriate to
keep your garden in shape?

2) During the "special weeks", at the beginning & end of season, how many
hours of work do you expect?

Normally, I really don't have a block of uninterrupted time for
gardening. I can only steal some time here to plant a flower, make
some time there to remove some weeds. I tend to spend only 10 to 15
minutes in the morning to do anything related to gardening and that
includes the time to water the flower boxes and the flower garden, and
walk around the garden to just enjoy the view.

In the special week in the spring, I can convict my wife to let me
spend some time working on the garden, and that is when I get most
things done. Here, I am talking about one afternoon work.

Jay Chan

Jay, I've asked you a number of times how much work to expect to do on your
garden on a weekly or monthly basis, but you haven't responded. Would you
care to do that now?

I already responded that yesterday. Seem like we passed each other in
cyber-space. Please scroll up and view my response to your original
question.

Jay Chan

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:285569

Hello Wong,

"nswong" wrote in news:2kou3bF4ttfeU1@uni-
berlin.de:

Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of
N available to a plant. .

It depend on the carbon are in what form. If it's sugar or starch, it
do. If it's lignin or cellulose, the effect should be unnoticeable.
Newspaper are compose mostly by cellulose.

As I understand it, for optimal decomposition, you should have a C/N
ratio of 30:1. I have read that wood chips and sawdust will reduce
nitrogen availability during decomposition when used as mulch or in a
compost pile, and I assumed that was because of the high carbon content.
Newspaper has approximately between 1/2x and 5x the carbon of sawdust
(both primarily celluose).

[1] http://compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/lignin.html

Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed blocking utility of the
newspaper as decomposition accelerates

Adding N will not always speed up the decompostion. It really depend
on situation.

hmm, according to [1], you are right, at least for lignin decomposition.
A certain quantity of additional nitrogen will speed up anaerobic
decomposition, but excess has little or no effect. It does not say about
cellulose.

Mulch supress weeds not just because the physical blocking ability, it
can also leach out some chemical harm weeds. Critters in mulch will
also help to supress weeds.

Yes and also fungi.

But to me, I will never add N to the mulch

My point is if you wanted to increase nitrogen availability to the soil
to compensate for newspaper decomposition loss (if there actually is any)
you could add to the soil, but actually if you wanted newspaper for
nutrients (as opposed to weed control), you should probably do that in
the compost pile and not in the flower bed.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited value
as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from
atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate, plants
do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated carbon
dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may have
indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to deciduous
leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects and
microbes and enhancing soil structure.

Yes, here the soil amendment I'm refer to improve soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that
landscape fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene)
can fixate minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and
electrostatic effect[3].

I believe N fixed by bacterial using carbon as energy in orgainc mulch
will do a better job.

I agree, the amount of nitrogen fixated (if any) by electrostatic effect
over a surface is probably minor, but I mention it because occasionally
you hear about people growing huge tomatoes with panty hose (nylon) and
the effect may be similar.

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape
fabric. To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent
installations.

For this I do facing problem to explain my view. In bussiness, we talk
about total cost of ownership. In here we talk about in the total life
span of the product, how much cost involve and how much the return
get.

In these terms, landscape fabric is USD$10 / 150 sq. ft (14 sq. meter),
with a life span of 15 years when installed properly, plus the starting
cost of mulch, USD$2-3 / 3 cubic feet (for large pine bark nuggets) at
recommended coverage rate of 4-6 inches (10-15 cm, mine is probably less
than 2 inches) and periodic replacement cost for wind or decomposition
loss. Other factors: labor savings in amount of time spent weeding,
labor increase in adding amendments, productivity comparisons if
relevant, etc. My recommendation is based on use for a home flower bed,
not a large scale or intensive operation.

For this, I'm not know enough to provide a view. Sorry about that.

[1] http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/horticulture/g810.htm "Table I.
Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials"
[2] http://www.co2science.org/subject/r/summaries/roots.htm [3]
http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/02/Spring/chubb.html "Findings"

Thanks for the links, I will look at it later. :-)

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant
debris to their tunnel as their food.
Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm
under the landscape fabric.

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open their
covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much a
barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7
worms per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a
typical fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during extensive rain[5].

[4] http://www.swcs.org/t_pubs_journal_2...acts_water.htm [5]
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-279.html

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open their
covered burrow (quite possibly true)

A few sheet of newspaper will not block earthworm.

In my experience, earthworms (not necessarily nightcrawlers) will
continue to crawl until it finds an existing opening and not attempt to
chew through paper to find an exit. In this way, I assume it is similar
to fabric, although there is no way the earthworm will be able to chew
through landscape fabric. These observations were in daylight, so may
not be representative of normal behaviour.

But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms
per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical
fabric installation such that the population is not impacted
significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose
to use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not
share nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows
during extensive rain[5].

I'm quite sure landscape fabric significantly reduce earthworm
population.

Okay.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they
decompose quickly.
Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause
pooling until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily
be uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous
to both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to
block water than the fabric.

Look at all short of filter we use, they all block. Do a test, remove
the mulch on top of your landscape fabric, put some water on top of
it, see how long it will pass through.

I do not think this is a problem. When it rains, I do not have a problem
with drainage, so the water must go down some where, even if the gutters
are removed (and rain falls directly from the roof to the flower bed).
If you test the fabric by itself, fast moving water (such as from a
faucet) will be deflected from the surface, but slow water (as typical
with mulch impeded flow) will drain. If it weren't porous, you might as
well just you regular black polyethylene sheeting.

Mulch have critters making tunnel in it, except there is little
critter in it.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see macroscopic organisms eating
vertical holes through newspaper to gain surface access.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just
spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...),
eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters. Landscape
fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else only
nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form, but
not much of organic matter.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended
nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

I'm refer to those nutrien that resolve in water as liquid form.

You mean nutrients that are dissolved in water? It is possible that the
fabric (different kinds of fabric vary) will filter the dissolved
nutrients (in the same way a paper coffee filter may filter salt from
seawater). I do not know, so I would not rely on it.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch,
just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done! Landscape
fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on top of
old landscape fabric? ;-)

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way
through landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize
the top of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig
or look for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary.
However, if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want,
it can be repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked
below the existing fabric).

No comment. g

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one.
Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric
that have plant root grow into it.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in 5-15
years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots
attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric is
of minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in 5-15
years at least.

From what I read, if landscape fabric are expose to sun, will not last
long.

Yes, this is printed on the product labeling. However, I have some
exposed pieces (DuPont Weed Control Fabric, rugged spunbonded
polypropylene, UPC 0 83014 20163 2) outside and after more than a year,
visually they all look the same as pieces that were stored in the
original bag in the garage. (I did not look at them under a microscope.)
The degradation rate probably differs in Canada and Singapore. (Not the
same product as used in my front yard, which is similar to but not
EasyGardener Weedblock.)

Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots attempting to penetrate
from below, but the removal of such fabric is of minor difficulty.

From what I read, those user of landscape fabric donot take it as
"minor difficulty". g

haha, perhaps the Green lacking in my Thumb is made up with my Incredible
Hulk strength.

Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft)

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there,
add some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and
it can last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch,
this will not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another
story.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time
for planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

No comment. g

Sorry, I'm getting a bit impatience. :-(

No comment. :-)