"Richard" expounded:

You sound bitter.

Not in the least.

I would never want anyone in my family to have an abortion but I am
pro-choice.

Where did I say that? You aren't going to win any argument with me by
twisting and inventing. Just because I'm not singing the praises of
abortion? It's a horrible, sometimes necessary thing. I've made sure
I've never had to deal with it in my life by being responsible for
myself and not relying on anyone else. That's all I would want for
anyone in my family. I'm no judge or jury, neither are you.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

"Ann" wrote in message
...
Janet Baraclough.. expounded:


I've never met any woman who loved abortion.

Unfortunately I've met some who don't seem to mind it.

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen



--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

The mantra of most pro-choice people I've ever heard, is to make abortion
safe, legal, and RARE. As far as I can ascertain, the mantra of
anti-abortion people is to make abortion unsafe, illegal, and (in the
absence of effective birth control measures, which they don't support), one
can only suppose, common.......
As a man, I will never be faced with this difficult and wrenching choice. I
think it's incredible that legislatures and courts which are predominantly
male are making these choices for women........

"Helen Crames" wrote in message
newsgBUc.276159$%_6.32608@attbi_s01...

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen

Not if the government pays for it.

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Wil" wrote in message
...
Homosexuals are not married. They are partners of a different kind,
like
room mates, or other kind of sex partner but can not legally enter
into
the
marriage contract. They have rights as individual but not as a
couple
who
is
in a marriage contract between a man and a woman. It has to do with
a
legal
contract. The contract says between a man and a woman.


I don't think that is being questioned. The issue is that same-sex
couples
SHOULD have the right to enter into the same contract. It's simply a
legal
matter. If churches don't want to "marry" same-sex couples, that's
their
business. Remember, at one time marriage was only open to two white
people
of opposite genders. People in mixed race marriages were criminals in
many
states. People saw that as a partnership of a different kind. Things
change.



It's appalling that on the spectrum of things which truly threaten this
country, some people think someone else's sexuality is more important
than
the fact that most shipping containers entering our ports could be
filled
with nuclear weapons and we'd be none the wiser. But, I guess they're
right.
I had a gay neighbor. He forgot to mow his lawn once before he left on
vacation. Years later, the children in the neighborhood are still in
therapy, some unable to speak or function in school.


Some of our neighbors are going to be in therapy soon. The fundamentalist
Christian family four doors up just sold their house to a lesbian couple.
I
heard about it from a neighbor who heard about it from someone on another
street! The women haven't even moved in yet. God only knows what they
say
about me. I sort of hope that it pushes some of them over-the-edge and
they
move. I wonder what they say about the unmarried heterosexual couples of
the serially divorced people who live on our street. If they only focused
that energy on their kids. Most of them don't have a clue where their
pre-school kids are much of the day. You can't leave your garage open
while
you do yard work or they are in there exploring.



Yeah...I've seen those kids. Last week, our electric company was digging up
front lawns for some reason in my ex wife's neighborhood. It was her turn
when I stopped to pick up my son. There was an 8 ft deep 10x10 hole in the
ground, covered by boards. My son (15) pointed out to me that a board had
been moved. In the trench were two 10 yr old kids, "exploring". They'd tied
a rope to the fire hydrant and lowered themselves in. We returned them to
their homes. One parent wasn't there. The other said "boys will be boys!".
Since I don't live there any more, I don't care what they think of me, so I
whispered the truth in her ear. If there weren't laws against assault, I
think she would've assaulted me. :-)

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Some of our neighbors are going to be in therapy soon. The
fundamentalist
Christian family four doors up just sold their house to a lesbian
couple.
I
heard about it from a neighbor who heard about it from someone on
another
street! The women haven't even moved in yet. God only knows what they
say
about me. I sort of hope that it pushes some of them over-the-edge and
they
move. I wonder what they say about the unmarried heterosexual couples
of
the serially divorced people who live on our street. If they only
focused
that energy on their kids. Most of them don't have a clue where their
pre-school kids are much of the day. You can't leave your garage open
while
you do yard work or they are in there exploring.



Yeah...I've seen those kids. Last week, our electric company was digging
up
front lawns for some reason in my ex wife's neighborhood. It was her turn
when I stopped to pick up my son. There was an 8 ft deep 10x10 hole in the
ground, covered by boards. My son (15) pointed out to me that a board had
been moved. In the trench were two 10 yr old kids, "exploring". They'd
tied
a rope to the fire hydrant and lowered themselves in. We returned them to
their homes. One parent wasn't there. The other said "boys will be boys!".
Since I don't live there any more, I don't care what they think of me, so
I
whispered the truth in her ear. If there weren't laws against assault, I
think she would've assaulted me. :-)


The popular toys this year seem to be motorized cars and scooters. The
fundamentalist, who don't watch their kids, got their 4 year old an electric
Jeep. Last night around dusk, he slammed it into the neighbors mailbox
post, breaking the post. It was a hit-and-run. Another neighbor saw it and
let our neighbor know what happened. When they approached the boy's father
to tell him what happened, the man didn't even express any concern or
apologize. I guess he said that the post was most likely rotted anyway and
after looking at it he just walked away. After a few steps, he turned
around and said if it didn't "cost too much" he would help pay for the
damage! I wonder if they teach that in the Old Testament or the New
Testament?

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from "Vox Humana" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in
message
...

Maybe if people didn't turn a medical procedure into a moralist,
judgmental
battle it wouldn't be so traumatic.

In the UK, contraception and abortion are available from both the
National Health Service (free) and private clinics. There's a nationwide
educational policy of teaching sex-education including contraception in
schools. Abortion isn't a political-party issue at government
level.(Though of course, there are many objectors at grass roots level).
It might not involve a moralist judgemental battle here to the extent
you suggest in the USA, but I suspect to most women abortion is still
more of an emotional and personal trauma than other "medical
procedures". All women seeking an abortion are supposedly counselled
first.

I don't think abortion should be used
as a contraceptive method, but only because there are far less invasive
methods available. Unfortunately, the very same people who have made
the
prohibition of abortion their raison d'être also want to ban any
discussion
of birth control methods, particularly if that discussion takes place in
a
school. Thank to idiots like George Bush, people are being subjected to
the
ridiculous "abstinence only" approach to sexuality.

Is that called the silver-ring pledge or some such? They've been on a
mission over here fairly recently but I don't know what reception they
got.

I don't know about "silver-ring" but I can assure you that it is George
Bush's "silver lining" when it comes to generating votes among his
fundamentalist base. There are only two issues that concern the religious
right - sex, and sex.

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from "Vox Humana" contains these words:

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in
message
...

Is that called the silver-ring pledge or some such? They've been on
a
mission over here fairly recently but I don't know what reception they
got.

I don't know about "silver-ring" but I can assure you that it is George
Bush's "silver lining" when it comes to generating votes among his
fundamentalist base. There are only two issues that concern the
religious
right - sex, and sex.

It's hard to imagine here. ISTR 10 % or less of the UK population
attend Christian church.


Yes, your part of the globe is always used as an example of what could
happen here if we let the evil secularist have their way!

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Some of our neighbors are going to be in therapy soon. The
fundamentalist
Christian family four doors up just sold their house to a lesbian
couple.
I
heard about it from a neighbor who heard about it from someone on
another
street! The women haven't even moved in yet. God only knows what
they
say
about me. I sort of hope that it pushes some of them over-the-edge
and
they
move. I wonder what they say about the unmarried heterosexual couples
of
the serially divorced people who live on our street. If they only
focused
that energy on their kids. Most of them don't have a clue where their
pre-school kids are much of the day. You can't leave your garage open
while
you do yard work or they are in there exploring.



Yeah...I've seen those kids. Last week, our electric company was digging
up
front lawns for some reason in my ex wife's neighborhood. It was her
turn
when I stopped to pick up my son. There was an 8 ft deep 10x10 hole in
the
ground, covered by boards. My son (15) pointed out to me that a board
had
been moved. In the trench were two 10 yr old kids, "exploring". They'd
tied
a rope to the fire hydrant and lowered themselves in. We returned them
to
their homes. One parent wasn't there. The other said "boys will be
boys!".
Since I don't live there any more, I don't care what they think of me,
so
I
whispered the truth in her ear. If there weren't laws against assault, I
think she would've assaulted me. :-)


The popular toys this year seem to be motorized cars and scooters. The
fundamentalist, who don't watch their kids, got their 4 year old an
electric
Jeep. Last night around dusk, he slammed it into the neighbors mailbox
post, breaking the post. It was a hit-and-run. Another neighbor saw it
and
let our neighbor know what happened. When they approached the boy's
father
to tell him what happened, the man didn't even express any concern or
apologize. I guess he said that the post was most likely rotted anyway
and
after looking at it he just walked away. After a few steps, he turned
around and said if it didn't "cost too much" he would help pay for the
damage! I wonder if they teach that in the Old Testament or the New
Testament?



Why didn't someone call the police?

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in message
...
The message
from "Vox Humana" contains these words:

"Janet Baraclough.." wrote in
message
...

Is that called the silver-ring pledge or some such? They've been on
a
mission over here fairly recently but I don't know what reception they
got.

I don't know about "silver-ring" but I can assure you that it is George
Bush's "silver lining" when it comes to generating votes among his
fundamentalist base. There are only two issues that concern the
religious
right - sex, and sex.

It's hard to imagine here. ISTR 10 % or less of the UK population
attend Christian church.

Janet.

In 1968, my parents took my sisters and I on a trip to Europe, which
included (as I recall) 45 minutes in England. My mother was a bit concerned
because television showed quite a bit more skin than was considered proper
here in the states. My conclusion: Your civilization is quite advanced. You
also gave the world Monty Python.

Ann wrote in
:

"Cindy" expounded:

mothers seeking abortions

Now there's an oxymoron for you. Women seeking abortions
are not mothers.

not necessarily true. accidental pregnancies occur in married
couples with children too, not just unmarried childless single
women
if one has one or more children & can't afford another either
financially or emotionally, well, what they do is thier
business, no one elses. i don't see how a very personal
decision is *anyone's* business but the person making it (&
thier spouse/partner). i suspect that it's wiser to know you
can't handle/afford 2 or more kids born within 12-16 months
apart, than to have them & end up like what's-her-name in
Texas...
lee

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..
Ann wrote in
:

"Cindy" expounded:

mothers seeking abortions

Now there's an oxymoron for you. Women seeking abortions
are not mothers.

not necessarily true. accidental pregnancies occur in married
couples with children too, not just unmarried childless single
women
if one has one or more children & can't afford another either
financially or emotionally, well, what they do is thier
business, no one elses. i don't see how a very personal
decision is *anyone's* business but the person making it (&
thier spouse/partner). i suspect that it's wiser to know you
can't handle/afford 2 or more kids born within 12-16 months
apart, than to have them & end up like what's-her-name in
Texas...
lee

Look out. Here comes the "how about adoption" nonsense, as if THAT is a
panacea.

dykerider wrote:

"Helen Crames" wrote in message
newsgBUc.276159$%_6.32608@attbi_s01...

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen

Not if the government pays for it.

Why should the government pay for it?

Sheila

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


dykerider wrote:

"Helen Crames" wrote in message
newsgBUc.276159$%_6.32608@attbi_s01...

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen

Not if the government pays for it.

Why should the government pay for it?


Its a red herring argument. It appeals to people who want to denigrate what
they perceive as a "welfare class." While most people on public assistance
are white, "welfare queen" (i.e., "the government pays for it") is code for
"unmarried, black woman with children." While I know that OP will strongly
protest, that statement has racist as well as classist overtones. It also
tries to assert that the government SHOULDN'T" pay for a legal medical
procedure because it is against a particular religious point of view. The
neo-conservative agenda doesn't accept the role of government in any way
that doesn't involve the defense industry or war. Therefore, this is a
trifecta of insults.

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


dykerider wrote:

"Helen Crames" wrote in message
newsgBUc.276159$%_6.32608@attbi_s01...

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen

Not if the government pays for it.

Why should the government pay for it?


Its a red herring argument. It appeals to people who want to denigrate
what
they perceive as a "welfare class." While most people on public
assistance
are white, "welfare queen" (i.e., "the government pays for it") is code
for
"unmarried, black woman with children." While I know that OP will
strongly
protest, that statement has racist as well as classist overtones. It also
tries to assert that the government SHOULDN'T" pay for a legal medical
procedure because it is against a particular religious point of view. The
neo-conservative agenda doesn't accept the role of government in any way
that doesn't involve the defense industry or war. Therefore, this is a
trifecta of insults.



The NeoCons don't want the government paying for abortion because it
acknowledges the existence of sex for purposes other than procreation. Uh
oh.