In article ,
says...
The point of faith becomes only that "something" (god) existed before the
point of the big bang.

"It's turtles, all the way down!"

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

In article ,
says...
In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

Larry Blanchard wrote in message
...


Bring back Mithras! It's all a bunch of bull anyway :-).

Sorry, couldn't resist that one :-).

Mithras is just another resurrected divinity like Tamuz and Jesus. A rose
by any other name is still just a fertility daemon worshipped as god. so
Mithras worship is still very much with us. Nothing wrong with that, only
whimsical that modern Mithras-Tamuz-Jesus worshippers think there's a
difference.

It was a JOKE! Lighten up!

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:00:56 -0500, Cheryl Isaak
wrote:


There is the "Divine Spark" school of thought - God started it all and stood
back and watched....

Cheryl

And laughed. That's the one I identify with.

zennie

(paghat) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

Larry Blanchard wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
A devottee of a single Christian sect remains so by being blind to &
rejecting the full range of belief. I do not claim to be an authority,
though, just have a deeper interest than dunderheads who blame their
prejudices & sillier observations on their religion, when they obviously
learned only enough about faith to justify hating whatever they already
hated.

Bring back Mithras! It's all a bunch of bull anyway :-).

Sorry, couldn't resist that one :-).

Glad to see someone else can see the possibilities. "Get rid of the
bull, with Mithras"

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Mithras is just another resurrected divinity like Tamuz and Jesus. A rose
by any other name is still just a fertility daemon worshipped as god. so
Mithras worship is still very much with us. Nothing wrong with that, only
whimsical that modern Mithras-Tamuz-Jesus worshippers think there's a
difference.

Your statements about the cult of Mithras are imaginary. Mithras was
not resurrected.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

and who created God?

In article ,
says...
The point of faith becomes only that "something" (god) existed before the
point of the big bang.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

(paghat) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

Larry Blanchard wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
A devottee of a single Christian sect remains so by being blind to &
rejecting the full range of belief. I do not claim to be an authority,
though, just have a deeper interest than dunderheads who blame their
prejudices & sillier observations on their religion, when they
obviously
learned only enough about faith to justify hating whatever they
already
hated.

Bring back Mithras! It's all a bunch of bull anyway :-).

Sorry, couldn't resist that one :-).

Glad to see someone else can see the possibilities. "Get rid of the
bull, with Mithras"

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Mithras is just another resurrected divinity like Tamuz and Jesus. A rose
by any other name is still just a fertility daemon worshipped as god. so
Mithras worship is still very much with us. Nothing wrong with that, only
whimsical that modern Mithras-Tamuz-Jesus worshippers think there's a
difference.

Your statements about the cult of Mithras are imaginary. Mithras was
not resurrected.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

You must have a corrupt perhaps christian reference book that doesn't like
to admit these savior-myths are all pretty much the same myth. Some
Christian references falsely state that Mithraism post-dates Christianity,
to explain the similarities; others leave out the resurrection myth in
order to cloud the similarities. The Christian claims that their
"mysteries" predate Mithras started while Mithraism was still spreading
out of Persia along Roman roads, & continues to this day, but it was just
propoganda to pretend Christian rituals were novel, when the reason
Christianity spread so easily throughout the pagan world was because the
rites & the idea for this savior was already well known (and failed to
take hold in Jerusalem because it was so well known to be a gentilic faith
exclusively).

A trick of some Christian scholars is to insist the Vedic, Persian, &
Roman Mithras are actually three divinities only coincidentally with the
same name, so any portion of the Mithras myth they don't like because too
similar to Christian mystery-rites they can discarded or alleged not to
predate Jesus, thus making Mithras rather than Jesus the imitation. So
Plutarch's statement that Roman Mithraism was introduced by soldiers
returning from Persia is dismissed because that religion did not thrive in
Rome (but it did), therefore the thriving Roman Mithras who so closely
resembled Jesus did not appear until at least 90 years into the Christian
Era. Or, all information about Mithraism from India or Arabia is dismissed
as allegedly anti-christian & therefore baseless (two unfounded premises
in a row in order to get rid of Mithras as a precursor to Jesus). This
leaves mainly the anti-Mithras statements of the early Church fathers as
acceptable "witnesses" of Mithraic mythology -- anti-Mithras testimony,
good; all other testimony, dismissable. The Mithraists themselves did not
reveal their mysteries except in a very few fragments of verse which fit
the archeological evidence (the temples including dark central initiate
chambers of death & rebirth). All kinds of silly antic methods of getting
rid of Mithras are tried, so that specifically christian scholarship on
Mithras tends even today merely to continue that ancient anti-Mithras
tradition that began when two PAGAN mystery cults of very similar
character (Mithraism & Christianity) competed vigorously for the soul of
Rome.

The arguments that Christianity "did to" or "did not" imitate Mithras are
all silly because the cultic pattern was almost universal from Sumer
onward, & NEITHER Mithras NOR Jesus-as-God were the least bit novel. But
central to Mithra worship was his descent (into darkness/death) & ascent
(into light/immortality) as a pattern for all Mithraists to imitate
ritually, & this Descent & Ascent myth is the same as for the death &
resurrection of Jesus, Attis, Dionysios, Adonis, Osiris, & especially
Tamuz/Damuzi, though one also finds descent & ascent myths for goddess
figures like Persephone & Inanna which show Light's conquest even of the
depths of the land of the dead.

Mithras was born into the world to experience its sadness & terror, then
was slain & entombed in a cavern underneath Mount Ararat, then restored to
life bringing gifts of a world that was, like Mithras himself, renewed
(much as Christians thought Jesus supplanted a more cruel Jewish god). His
alleged birthday (as for so many sun-divinities) was winter solstice,
today Christmas; & the mother of Mithras was a virgin, his father was the
Sun. During his death his spirit entered the underworld where he conquered
Ahriman's demons of darkness & possibly bound even Ahriman, then sprang
back to life & came out of his cavern tomb bringing the world gifts of
justice, beauty, loyalty, honesty, & bravery, all of which Ahriman had
been hording in order to keep goodness out of the world. A similar
extrabiblical story is told of Jesus who, during his entombment, entered
into the land of darkness to release suffering souls. Mithras served
thereafter as a mediator between the world (Earthmother) & the Sun-god,
which some view as the same as the Christian Trinity, the Holy Ghost being
noted by the earliest Christian gnostics as the Mother. On the day of
judgement Mithras will select which souls will or will not persist
eternally (in an Islamic myth, Mohammed's daughter does this, dividing the
righteous from the unrighteous with her sword of flame). Mithras also had
a parallel myth for the Last Supper, but it occurred upon his resurrection
when he called his twelve disciples to the feast.

Initiates reenacted Mithra's death & resurrection by spending a period of
time in a lightless chamber at the center of a temple, then issuing reborn
into the light. Before entering the Cavern/Tomb the initiate would be
ritualistically tortured (or a kind of mummery acted out in which torture
was pretended), undergoing the same tortures & death as Mithras:
blindfolded, burned, bound in ropes or chains, cut with a sword, tossed
into the tomb, then crowned & given bread upon release). Much the same
ritual existed for one of Demeter's fertility daemons, & was intended to
incite terror of the afterlife as it will be experienced by the unsaved,
followed by salvation.

Other versions have Mithras die seasonally & reborn from the cave each
year. There is some indication that he originated as a god-personification
of a Bull annually sacrififed to the Sun, just as Christians tie the death
& resurrection of Jesus to the sacrificial Red Heifer &/or the Pascal
Lamb. (Some scholars speculate the bull was Ahriman whose blood restored
the stolen beatitudes, but no Roman, Greek, nor even Persian myth
identifies the bull with evil, & it would be much more apt to be
identified with Zeus, Jupiter, or Mithras himself, & with the fertility of
Aphrodite or Europa).

Parallelling Christians' macabre drinking of Jesus's blood & eating of
Jesus's flesh, Mithras (or his father), in the form of a bull, was slain,
his followers were baptized in His blood, & then the Mithras bull was
eaten. In Vedic literature Mithra is a form of the god Varuna who also
received bull or ox as sacrifice -- Varuna rules the night sky, Mithras
the day sky. The Vedic Mithra was called "the first bull." His/their
worship was displaced by or absorbed into the worship of Shiva who
likewise died or dreams eternally in a cavern, trampled by his death-bride
Kali -- and Shiva worshippers do recognize Jesus as an avatar of Shiva.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Exactly.


On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:21:33 GMT, opined:

and who created God?

In article ,
says...
The point of faith becomes only that "something" (god) existed before the
point of the big bang.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.






Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

(paghat) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

(paghat) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Roger Pearse) wrote:

Larry Blanchard wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
A devottee of a single Christian sect remains so by being blind to &
rejecting the full range of belief. I do not claim to be an authority,
though, just have a deeper interest than dunderheads who blame their
prejudices & sillier observations on their religion, when they
obviously
learned only enough about faith to justify hating whatever they
already
hated.

Bring back Mithras! It's all a bunch of bull anyway :-).

Sorry, couldn't resist that one :-).

Glad to see someone else can see the possibilities. "Get rid of the
bull, with Mithras"

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Mithras is just another resurrected divinity like Tamuz and Jesus. A rose
by any other name is still just a fertility daemon worshipped as god. so
Mithras worship is still very much with us. Nothing wrong with that, only
whimsical that modern Mithras-Tamuz-Jesus worshippers think there's a
difference.

Your statements about the cult of Mithras are imaginary. Mithras was
not resurrected.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

You must have a corrupt perhaps christian reference book that doesn't like
to admit these savior-myths are all pretty much the same myth.

Actually I don't trust reference books on matters of controversy. I
always go to the ancient sources directly.

In fact I grew tired of vague statements about Mithras quite some time
ago, and wondered how to find out from primary sources what was known
about him, and what was modern imagination (I'm currently doing the
same for Sol Invictus). So what I did was search out every ancient
mention of him in ancient literature, compile them all onto a website,
and see what they said. I gather there are also a lot of
inscriptions, but these all say things like "Marcus dedicates this
shrine to Mithras".

The collected testimonies are at
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras.

If someone says something, and it isn't in that collection, and there
is no specific reference to an ancient source for the statement, then
it is fairly safe to presume it is bogus.

Some Christian references falsely state that Mithraism
post-dates Christianity,

I learn from Prof. Clauss' book on the subject that there is no
evidence, archaeological or literary, for the worship of Mithras
before around 80AD.

to explain the similarities; others leave out the resurrection myth in
order to cloud the similarities.

There is no ancient evidence of such a myth associated with Mithras,
as far as I know. If you know different, by all means provide the
literary source.

The Christian claims that their
"mysteries" predate Mithras started while Mithraism was still spreading
out of Persia along Roman roads,

The Roman cult of Mithras is not thought to be the same as the ancient
Persian worship of Mithra, not least because of all those subterranean
temples with the image of Mithras in them, the most characteristic
sign of Mithraism. But not a single one of these has been found in
Persia. Therefore it cannot be a cult originating in Persia! All the
earliest inscriptions show a connection with the city of Rome, he
says.

& continues to this day,

Interested that worship in subterranean Mithraea is extant today in
continuous line. But I don't know of this -- what is the source for
this unlikely-sounding idea?

So Plutarch's statement that Roman Mithraism was introduced by soldiers
returning from Persia

Plutarch does not state that Mithraism was introduced into Rome by
Pompey's soldiers:

"There were of these corsairs above one thousand sail, and they had
taken no less than four hundred cities, committing sacrilege upon the
temples of the gods, and enriching themselves with the spoils of many
never violated before, such as were those of Claros, Didyma, and
Samothrace; and the temple of the Earth in Hermione, and that of
Aesculapius in Epidaurus, those of Neptune at the Isthmus, at
Taenarus, and at Calauria; those of Apollo at Actium and Leucas, and
those of Juno in Samos, at Argos, and at Lacinium. They themselves
offered strange sacrifices upon Mount Olympus, and performed certain
secret rites or religious mysteries, among which those of Mithras have
been preserved to our own time having received their previous
institution from them." (Life of Pompey 24:5/632cd).

[long snip of assertions]

Pardon me if I don't comment in detail on these. You see, all the
assertions made are undocumented from ancient sources, and must
therefore be considered dubious.

May I ask what your source is for this? -- it sounds like something
you found in a book? Unfortunately on matters of this sort there are
authors out there who will exploit anti-Christian feeling by selling
fairy-stories of this sort to those who'd like to believe them. "The
Holy blood and the Holy Grail" comes to mind.

The only way to avoid these people is to check every statement and not
state as fact that which one has not checked for oneself. Luckily
more and more of the ancient sources are online in English, so it is
often easier to check than it has ever been. Not all of us have a
huge library on-hand and loads of spare time!

I hope that's helpful.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse wrote: [long snip of assertions]

Pardon me if I don't comment in detail on these. You see, all the
assertions made are undocumented from ancient sources, and must
therefore be considered dubious.

You have just described the Bible.

If you don't read every single article about "upgrades" to the Patriot Act,
worry a lot and write to your representatives about it, you're stupid. If
you do NOT read everything you can get your hands on because you can't
imagine your government doing anything really bad, you are evil, you are a
useless citizen, and you are guilty of treason.

Simple, eh?

You're nuts if you do. If you are writing your representative about
the "upgrades" to the Patriot Act that you don't agree with I imagine
they have a nice little manilla folder out there "somewhere" with your
name on it. Most probably, you just might turn up "missing" one of
these days - gone without a trace - nobody can do a damn thing about
it either.

Save your breath. Take care of yourself and your family. Lay low.
Maybe one day we will have a democracy back. Maybe.

Em
Be careful what you wish for....