Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern Indiana)
that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local hardware. The
soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy but a
vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up in clumps
when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass and
*didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I thought I
was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am afraid I have
created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie

No, that is not erosion.

The soil has some sort of toxic property that prevents anything from growing
it it. Take a sample to your local agricultural extension service to have it
tested.


"Danimal" wrote in message
oups.com...
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern Indiana)
that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local hardware. The
soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy but a
vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up in clumps
when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass and
*didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I thought I
was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am afraid I have
created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie

"Danimal" wrote in message
oups.com...
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern Indiana)
that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local hardware. The
soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy but a
vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up in clumps
when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

You can look up the word "erosion" in any dictionary. Here's an online
resource, in case you're at work and don't have one:
http://www.m-w.com
You'll need to explore other versions of the word to get the results you
want.


I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass and
*didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I thought I
was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am afraid I have
created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.

Two things:
1) Most lawnmowers can have their cutting height adjusted. Where is yours
set?

2) If you water the grass, describe exactly how you do it.

3) Grass in shade *can* be harder to grow. Its roots may be shallower, and
it may not grow as thickly. All the *good* grass care habits you need for
growing in sun must be even more closely followed in shade.

Danimal wrote:
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern
Indiana) that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local
hardware. The soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy
but a vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up
in clumps when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass
and *didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I
thought I was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am
afraid I have created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root
deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie

The name "top soil" has no meaning. What ever it is you added should
have been tilled in.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

In article ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07, "Travis"
wrote:

Danimal wrote:
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern
Indiana) that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local
hardware. The soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy
but a vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up
in clumps when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass
and *didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I
thought I was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am
afraid I have created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root
deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie

The name "top soil" has no meaning. What ever it is you added should
have been tilled in.

Topsoil vs subsoil certainly does have meaning. Sand is not topsoil; clay
is not topsoil; organic mucks of peat or manure are not topsoils, but mix
them all together & you get topsoil. Topsoil is both manufactured by
mixing the ingredients, or obtained by stripping. Stripping is sometimes
done illegally, but usually developers will sell the trees & topsoil to
different companies before building houses or roads, & topsoil stripping
becomes a beneficial salvage operation.

Topsoil is defined as that layer of soil with the most organic matter,
usually six or eight inches deep, the layer of maximum microorganism
activity & plant root development. In eroded or recent construction sites
or places where natural topsoil has been stripped for commercial resale
there may be no topsoil whatsoever. Nature can take one to five centuries
to create each inch of organically rich topsoil, & most of us can't wait
that long.

In regional & national landscape associations topsoil with or without
further ammendments is quite defined as comprising of humus, clay
particles, & sand -- whoever sells a non-topsoil as a topsoil is not
adhering to honest practices outlined by professional soil associations.
Good topsoil would not have to be tilled in, though for good drainage it
is nice to till a bit of the unrestored surface before adding topsoil, or
water may literally flow to the bottom of the topsoil then move sideways
without penetrating the subsoil (especially on slopes); roughing, discing,
scarifying, or tilling a bit of the subsoil insures an immediate bond
between subsoil & newly added topsoil.

Topsoil should already be a suitable growth medium for vegetation. Topsoil
is easily distinguished from subsoil by its darker color, the subsoil
lacking an organic component.

Of course not all soil providers adhere to any reasonable standard & what
people purchase as topsoil sometimes turns out to be dirt (of sand and/or
clay particles) with very little organic matter in it -- tilling that into
more sand & clay wouldn't help much either, but some organic matter tilled
into it could turn it into topsoil.

As for those portions of Dannie's lawn that were planted without topsoil,
there is a bad landscape practice of starting instant-lawns on a newly
laid medium of sand. I don't know how that practice got started but I
think it was a cheap way to gussy up new construction to get a quick green
turf going that only needed to last long enough to sell all the houses, as
such lawns will very soon begin to look thin or matted with winter-end
white fungus. The retroactive fix would be to use a mulch mower so as to
not remove even more of the needed nutrients, & twice a year for the next
several years sprinkle organic matter over the surface of the lawn then
leave it to the worms to mix in, this in addition to all the other
high-maintenence BS a lawn requires. Meadows of native grasses &
wildflowers are preferable.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden
people maintaining a free civil government." -Thomas Jefferson

It sounds to me like the grass grows in this area, but is easily pulled
up with a rake. That could be an indication that insects are eating the
roots, particularly in an established lawn.

I suspect, however, that you just strewed the top soil about, and never
compacted it, so the soil is not cohesive enough to hold the new grass
when you rake.

One of the steps that is often skipped when putting in a new lawn from
seed, is to roll the soil. This makes it smooth and sturdy. If you
skip that step, your lawn will be lumpy at best, as the forces of nature
compact it in some areas and not in others. Of course, after your lawn
has been established for a while, the soil will become too compacted,
and you will have to aerate it. The very best lawns are alternatively
rolled (compacted) and aerated over the years.

If I have read your situation accurately, I would suggest you roll the
new soil (rent a roller, or just put some water in a small barrel and
roll it over the area), barely loosen the surface with light raking,
reseed (covered with straw or cheesecloth) and keep the area moist until
you have full germination, remove the cheesecloth (straw can just be
left there; the grass will grow through it), hold off mowing until a dry
day when the grass is at least two inches tall, then mow frequently, but
skip the raking until the grass is very well established. There is
usually no reason for raking unless you have leaf coverage in the fall.
Grass clippings can be left in place to decompose.

Danimal wrote:
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern Indiana)
that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local hardware. The
soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy but a
vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes up in clumps
when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass and
*didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I thought I
was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am afraid I have
created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small incline
(barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie


--
SPAMBLOCK NOTICE! To reply to me, delete the h from apkh.net, if it is
there.

paghat wrote:
In article ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07, "Travis"
wrote:

Danimal wrote:
Two years ago I relandscaped an area of my lawn (in Northern
Indiana) that did not have grass. I added top soil from a local
hardware. The soil looks really dark and loose.

Now two years later I am still having trouble keeping grass in the
area. A few places the grass seems to be well rooted and healthy
but a vast majority of the area is so loose that the grass comes
up in clumps when ever I run a rake over it. Is this called
erosion?

I notice however that other parts of my lawn where I planted grass
and *didn't* put in top soil the grass seems to grow better. I
thought I was doing a good thing by adding "top" soil but I am
afraid I have created a hostile environment to the grass seed.

Can I add something to my soil to make it more hospitable for the
grass? Or can I plant a special kind of grass that will root
deeper.

The only other things to note are that it is on a very small
incline (barely perceptable) and it is mostly shaded.


Thanks for your help,
Dannie

The name "top soil" has no meaning. What ever it is you added
should have been tilled in.

Topsoil vs subsoil certainly does have meaning. Sand is not
topsoil; clay is not topsoil; organic mucks of peat or manure are
not topsoils, but mix them all together & you get topsoil. Topsoil
is both manufactured by mixing the ingredients, or obtained by
stripping. Stripping is sometimes done illegally, but usually
developers will sell the trees & topsoil to different companies
before building houses or roads, & topsoil stripping becomes a
beneficial salvage operation.

With that definition my topsoil may well be very different than your
topsoil.

There is no definition of topsoil other than it is on top.

Topsoil is defined as that layer of soil with the most organic
matter, usually six or eight inches deep, the layer of maximum
microorganism activity & plant root development. In eroded or
recent construction sites or places where natural topsoil has been
stripped for commercial resale there may be no topsoil whatsoever.
Nature can take one to five centuries to create each inch of
organically rich topsoil, & most of us can't wait that long.

In regional & national landscape associations topsoil with or
without further ammendments is quite defined as comprising of
humus, clay particles, & sand -- whoever sells a non-topsoil as a
topsoil is not adhering to honest practices outlined by
professional soil associations. Good topsoil would not have to be
tilled in, though for good drainage it is nice to till a bit of the
unrestored surface before adding topsoil, or water may literally
flow to the bottom of the topsoil then move sideways without
penetrating the subsoil (especially on slopes); roughing, discing,
scarifying, or tilling a bit of the subsoil insures an immediate
bond between subsoil & newly added topsoil.

Topsoil should already be a suitable growth medium for vegetation.
Topsoil is easily distinguished from subsoil by its darker color,
the subsoil lacking an organic component.

Of course not all soil providers adhere to any reasonable standard
& what people purchase as topsoil sometimes turns out to be dirt
(of sand and/or clay particles) with very little organic matter in
it -- tilling that into more sand & clay wouldn't help much either,
but some organic matter tilled into it could turn it into topsoil.

What standard? Who set it? Who enforces it?

As for those portions of Dannie's lawn that were planted without
topsoil, there is a bad landscape practice of starting
instant-lawns on a newly laid medium of sand. I don't know how that
practice got started but I think it was a cheap way to gussy up new
construction to get a quick green turf going that only needed to
last long enough to sell all the houses, as such lawns will very
soon begin to look thin or matted with winter-end white fungus. The
retroactive fix would be to use a mulch mower so as to not remove
even more of the needed nutrients, & twice a year for the next
several years sprinkle organic matter over the surface of the lawn
then leave it to the worms to mix in, this in addition to all the
other high-maintenence BS a lawn requires. Meadows of native
grasses & wildflowers are preferable.

-paghat the ratgirl

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil and does
not have any specific chemical or biological composition. It can be good for
growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top soil" is buying a "pig in a
poke". You may not only be wasting your money but you can actually be doing
damage to your garden by using it.

If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what you are
getting and how to use it.


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains these words:

The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile layer
above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of soil for
horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

In the hands of a beginner, actual "peat" can produce results ranging from
"hmmm...." to "disaster". By "beginner", I'm referring to the
ever-increasing legions of people who don't seem to know what a library is,
and how to plan far enough ahead to have time to read a book or two, or
(heaven forbid) locate a real garden center run by grizzled old people who
actually know what they're talking about.

"Cereus-validus....." wrote in message
m...
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil and
does not have any specific chemical or biological composition. It can be
good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top soil" is buying
a "pig in a poke". You may not only be wasting your money but you can
actually be doing damage to your garden by using it.

If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what you
are getting and how to use it.


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains these words:

The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile layer
above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of soil for
horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

Cereus-validus..... wrote:
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil
and does not have any specific chemical or biological composition.
It can be good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top
soil" is buying a "pig in a poke". You may not only be wasting your
money but you can actually be doing damage to your garden by using
it.
If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what
you are getting and how to use it.

Please define humus and loam. Who sets the standard for them and who
enforces that standard?

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains these
words:
The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile
layer above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of
soil for horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

"Travis" wrote in message
news:d%g0e.23205$oa6.1581@trnddc07...
Cereus-validus..... wrote:
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil
and does not have any specific chemical or biological composition.
It can be good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top
soil" is buying a "pig in a poke". You may not only be wasting your
money but you can actually be doing damage to your garden by using
it.
If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what
you are getting and how to use it.

Please define humus and loam. Who sets the standard for them and who
enforces that standard?

My very loose definition: Put some soil in a tray in the sun for two hours.
If, after that time, it's completely dried out and you can blow it away like
dust, it's neither humus nor loam. If it still smells alive, it *is* one or
both of those two. IMHO, of course. Your nose enforces this definition.

I am not recommending tha anyone use peat nor any other soil additive. My
point is that when you purchase peat you know exactly what you are getting.

If you are foolish enough to buy "top soil", you could be getting anything
under the sun, including something toxic that could do actual damage to your
garden!!!


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
In the hands of a beginner, actual "peat" can produce results ranging from
"hmmm...." to "disaster". By "beginner", I'm referring to the
ever-increasing legions of people who don't seem to know what a library
is, and how to plan far enough ahead to have time to read a book or two,
or (heaven forbid) locate a real garden center run by grizzled old people
who actually know what they're talking about.

"Cereus-validus....." wrote in message
m...
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil and
does not have any specific chemical or biological composition. It can be
good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top soil" is buying
a "pig in a poke". You may not only be wasting your money but you can
actually be doing damage to your garden by using it.

If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what you
are getting and how to use it.


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains these
words:

The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile layer
above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of soil for
horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

Do you know how to do a Google search, Travis?


"Travis" wrote in message
news:d%g0e.23205$oa6.1581@trnddc07...
Cereus-validus..... wrote:
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil
and does not have any specific chemical or biological composition.
It can be good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying "top
soil" is buying a "pig in a poke". You may not only be wasting your
money but you can actually be doing damage to your garden by using
it.
If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly what
you are getting and how to use it.

Please define humus and loam. Who sets the standard for them and who
enforces that standard?

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains these
words:
The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile
layer above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of
soil for horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

Cereus-validus..... wrote:
Do you know how to do a Google search, Travis?

Of course I do. The definitions people are throwing about have no
meaning. If I said I liked cake how much does that tell you?

Your friend Janet Baraclough gave these defanitions:

" Humus is (relatively recently) decayed living material such as
plant/bacterial/animal material, the stuff you get out of a compost heap
or find on the floor surface of woodland, made of decayed leaves,
decayed animal corpses and faeces etc.

Loam is a variable combination of humus plus particles of geological
elements. Geological elements are stuff like sands, chalk, clay, grits;
their origin is far more ancient than humus. "

How precise is that? About as precise as the definition of "topsoil"
given here in this group.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

"Travis" wrote in message
news:d%g0e.23205$oa6.1581@trnddc07...
Cereus-validus..... wrote:
Here we go again.

"Top soil" is ANYTHING that makes up the surface layer of the soil
and does not have any specific chemical or biological composition.
It can be good for growing plants or it could be toxic. Buying
"top soil" is buying a "pig in a poke". You may not only be
wasting your money but you can actually be doing damage to your
garden by using it.
If you instead buy "humus", "loam" or "peat", you know exactly
what you are getting and how to use it.

Please define humus and loam. Who sets the standard for them and
who enforces that standard?

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message ghY%d.22081$oa6.14080@trnddc07
from "Travis" contains
these words:
The name "top soil" has no meaning.

It's a well-known term throughout Europe, meaning the fertile
layer above subsoil. When people here buy/sell a lorry-load of
soil for horticultural use, it's normal to specify topsoil.

Janet.

Travis wrote:
Your friend Janet Baraclough gave these defanitions:

" Humus is (relatively recently) decayed living material such as
plant/bacterial/animal material, the stuff you get out of a compost heap
or find on the floor surface of woodland, made of decayed leaves,
decayed animal corpses and faeces etc.

Loam is a variable combination of humus plus particles of geological
elements. Geological elements are stuff like sands, chalk, clay, grits;
their origin is far more ancient than humus. "

How precise is that? About as precise as the definition of "topsoil" given
here in this group.

If you're looking for some government standard, like how much fruit juice has to
be in a liquid for it to be marketed as "juice", or the maximum amount of fat
that can be in "lean ground beef", there is none.

However, those are more precise than the definition of "topsoil".

"Topsoil" is literally the soil from the top. Not the top soil for your needs,
as in "you're the top", or the best. Nor do we know what the topsoil was on top
of. However many people are likely to misunderstand "top" to mean best, and
others may assume that the topsoil in their area is the natural soil that is on
top of otherwise undisturbed land.

Despite those unrealistic expectations, there are some realistic expectations
that we should have for topsoil. For example, it should be free of rocks, and it
should be relatively loamy. It shouldn't have things like perlite or
vermiculite, and it isn't fortified with any synthetic fertilizer. It should be
a medium that we could grow common plants in, though not necessarily the best
medium for it.

The buyer, however, should exercise due diligence in inspecting the "topsoil"
before accepting it. If it's in branded bags, the buyer has the right to expect
some consistency. And if it's being bought by the truckload, a representative
sample should be provided.

I don't even know if the suppliers I've dealt with even have something called
"topsoil". They have a number of different mixes, readily available descriptions
of what's in those mixes, and are fairly consistent when they put together the
mixes. If someone wants "topsoil", I'm sure there's something they might be
directed to based on their intended use, and their budget.

I know that there are plenty of suppliers out there that will deliver just about
anything to someone who specifies nothing more than "topsoil". And I would hope
that anyone who's hung-out in any gardening forum would know enough to ask for
something more specific than "topsoil", no matter what they do or don't expect
from "topsoil".

And the same goes for "Potting Soil", "Garden Soil", "Lawn Soil", or any other
soil available. Unless you already know the supplier, and know what to expect
from that particular mix, ask. Check it out. Don't assume that "Potting Soil" is
interchangeable between suppliers, either.

You don't go to a paint store, and just ask for red paint. Don't go to a soil
supplier and just ask for "topsoil" (unless you're willing to accept just about
anything.) Descriptive terms have meaning. They may or may not be regulated
standards, and usually aren't.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Your Guide to the Care and Feeding of a Suburban Lawn:
http://www.holzemville.com/community...are/index.html