Years ago I was startled when a Swiss girl of my acquaintance in NYC told me
that she hoped to move to the US. When I asked why, she said, "In
Switzerland, everyone is in your business - it is quite normal for every one
of your neighbors to feel that it is their right and their duty to come over
to your house and tell you that your yard has too many weeds, your front
stoop and sidewalks need sweeping, you have to put flowers in your
flowerboxes, etc..... in America, I don't think people do that". It seems
that in many crowded lands (the Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan) - there is
tremendous social pressure to maintain appearances, and shame is used as a
weapon to keep people in line. However, the US, which was always laissez
faire in the past, partly because of its enormous size and the distance of
one neighbor from another, is rapidly becoming a crowded country too,
especially in certain regions. I think the tremendous energy this thread has
generated is a reflection of a change in attitude. People are recognizing on
a subconcious level that some of the freedoms (e.g. the freedom to be
eccentric) that are possible when people are spread out, start to become
problematic when people are in close proximity. Because we are a legalistic
nation, I imagine that over time zoning regulations will take the place that
shame has in other cultures. But all of that is going to arouse resentment,
because it's a change from the values we were raised with.

Toni wrote:
Found a very interesting webpage regarding various "Green Laws"
enacted around the US...

http://www.greenlaws.lsu.edu/greenlaws.html

And another note on my offending neighbor- since originally posting
I have twice again seen trucks pull up and someone snap a photo of
the remaining stump.
Hmmmm...

Looks like a lot of stuff taken out of context and so it is pretty
worthless. Just MHO.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

"Vox Humana" expounded:

"Oh my god, I haven't been on here for years. I scan down, open a post and
its Ann from Massachusetts.
It must be 4 or 5 years since I stopped by here and you are still at it,
being a nasty, know it all bitch.
I would have thought a house would have fallen on you by now. Must be a very
sad life you have lead."

Figures you'd enjoy a troll post. Find all those bitchy posts from
me. Oh, I guess because you and I have opposite views on politics
that means I'm a bitch. Ok. I can live with it. You are the one
that has to live with your hostility. I could feel sorry for you, but
I won't.

I would just add that for someone who claims that nothing is any of her
business, you sure have a way of getting into everyone's business. Oh, and
look out for falling houses, it's tornado season.

I see. So, you can express your opinions, but I can't. Get over
yourself.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Doug Kanter" expounded:

What if the permit is free, but requires a 5 minute look at the tree and a 5
minute talk with the property owner, just to be sure they're not cutting it
down for stupid reasons? Would that be OK with you?

I guess I just don't see the need (and money has nothing to do with
it). Then again, I wouldn't cut down a beautiful tree for no reason
at all. And I wouldn't cut one down that a neighbor loved (we're
pretty close around here, and many of us are gardeners, or they've
become one living near one ) ) I see lots being cleared around
here and will notice a beautiful oak, and feel bad that it's going to
be cut down to make way for some McMansion. Every once in awhile I'll
notice a tree being left, purposely, it gives me hope someone who
cares is moving onto that lot.

I think Presley has it right. If you live in a metropolitan area,
where trees are a bonus, a premium, then rules are needed II guess) -
there's a brawl going on right now in Boston over a guy who wants to
take down a Norway Maple that the neighbors all love - but it's
wreaking havoc with sewer lines, and he wants to redo his backyard and
gain a parking space. I can't find the reference right now, but he's
the former heahorticultural society or somesuch, he's hardly a slash
and burn guy, and he wants to plant two trees to replace what he's
removing. I think the outcome is in his favor, but it's escalated to
the point where the Boston Globe is covering it. Ok, he's affecting
the aesthetics of lots of people. But out here, we're not.

--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"presley" expounded:

Years ago I was startled when a Swiss girl of my acquaintance in NYC told me
that she hoped to move to the US. When I asked why, she said, "In
Switzerland, everyone is in your business - it is quite normal for every one
of your neighbors to feel that it is their right and their duty to come over
to your house and tell you that your yard has too many weeds, your front
stoop and sidewalks need sweeping, you have to put flowers in your
flowerboxes, etc..... in America, I don't think people do that". It seems
that in many crowded lands (the Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan) - there is
tremendous social pressure to maintain appearances, and shame is used as a
weapon to keep people in line. However, the US, which was always laissez
faire in the past, partly because of its enormous size and the distance of
one neighbor from another, is rapidly becoming a crowded country too,
especially in certain regions. I think the tremendous energy this thread has
generated is a reflection of a change in attitude. People are recognizing on
a subconcious level that some of the freedoms (e.g. the freedom to be
eccentric) that are possible when people are spread out, start to become
problematic when people are in close proximity. Because we are a legalistic
nation, I imagine that over time zoning regulations will take the place that
shame has in other cultures. But all of that is going to arouse resentment,
because it's a change from the values we were raised with.


You're right, Presley, however, there are still plenty of places where
you can live without too much interference from others.

Thing is, the people who want to control move into an area and then
try to enact their controls. VH hopes a pig farm would open near me.
More the point, if I chose to move in next to a pig farm, I wouldn't
start trying to change the laws nearby to outlaw the pig farm. We
have that happen around here all the time. VH would move next door
and spend the rest of her life fighting the pig farm and drive the
farmer out of business.

There's a family who have owned a farm for generations in Scituate,
it's now a retail nursery. Someone bought the land on the hill above
them (it has ocean views) and built several large homes. The people
who moved in directly behind the farm didn't like seeing the nursery
operations while they gazed at their view. They tried their damnedest
to shut them down. Thankfully there are enough people around here to
see their property rights eaten up at town meetings thatthey voted
these idiots down. They bought their $800,000 house knowing full well
the nursery was there. Tough luck for them.

Yes, as things get more crowded some of this will happen. The towns
around here pretty much recognize that people buy here because it's
small-town New England, and with that come farms, animals, etc. The
townies rightfully resent the newcomers who try to change the rules to
citify things. If you don't like what goes on in an area, then don't
move there. Stick to a nice, governed subdivision and leave the rest
of us alone.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

What if the permit is free, but requires a 5 minute look at the tree and a
5
minute talk with the property owner, just to be sure they're not cutting
it
down for stupid reasons? Would that be OK with you?

I guess I just don't see the need (and money has nothing to do with
it). Then again, I wouldn't cut down a beautiful tree for no reason
at all. And I wouldn't cut one down that a neighbor loved (we're
pretty close around here, and many of us are gardeners, or they've
become one living near one ) ) I see lots being cleared around
here and will notice a beautiful oak, and feel bad that it's going to
be cut down to make way for some McMansion. Every once in awhile I'll
notice a tree being left, purposely, it gives me hope someone who
cares is moving onto that lot.

I think Presley has it right. If you live in a metropolitan area,
where trees are a bonus, a premium, then rules are needed II guess) -
there's a brawl going on right now in Boston over a guy who wants to
take down a Norway Maple that the neighbors all love - but it's
wreaking havoc with sewer lines, and he wants to redo his backyard and
gain a parking space. I can't find the reference right now, but he's
the former heahorticultural society or somesuch, he's hardly a slash
and burn guy, and he wants to plant two trees to replace what he's
removing. I think the outcome is in his favor, but it's escalated to
the point where the Boston Globe is covering it. Ok, he's affecting
the aesthetics of lots of people. But out here, we're not.

I understand "out here". A friend of mine has 200+ acres "out there". His
nearest neighbor is 5 minutes away at walking speed. What he does with his
trees affects (pretty much) nobody. But, in a neighborhood like mine, with
1/8 and 1/4 acre lots, that's not always the case.

I think part of the issue here, at least for me, is that I've had direct
experience with a couple of neighbors who are intensely ignorant. I hate to
see a tree or plant ruined out of ignorance.

Ann wrote in
:

You're right, Presley, however, there are still plenty of
places where you can live without too much interference
from others.

fewer & fewer, and mostly in the less temperate areas like
Maine or upstate NY (fortunately i enjoy large quantities of
snowg)

Thing is, the people who want to control move into an area
and then try to enact their controls. VH hopes a pig farm
would open near me. More the point, if I chose to move in
next to a pig farm, I wouldn't start trying to change the
laws nearby to outlaw the pig farm. We have that happen
around here all the time. VH would move next door and
spend the rest of her life fighting the pig farm and drive
the farmer out of business.

which is why "right to farm" laws have had to be enacted.
when i decide to sell & move again, i will specificly be
looking for a town /area with such laws in place.
as Southern NH becomes more crowded with idiot suburbanites,
i have to go through more trouble keeping my livestock... not
that there is anything wrong with what i have for a setup, but
"well-meaning" busybodies like to call animal control because
"there's a dead llama in that yard" (um, no. he's sunbathing.
he's perfectly healthy. if you actually *looked* you see ears
twitching), or "there is no barn, poor animals". true, but
there are 2 three sided shelters on the other side of the
hill, but they can't be arsed to ask *me* about husbandry, oh
no! they need to call SPCA or animal control...
wastes everybody's time (actually, our animal control guy
tends to dislike the idiots as much as i do, so he just gives
a courtesy call & doesn't bother coming out now)

There's a family who have owned a farm for generations in
Scituate, it's now a retail nursery. Someone bought the
land on the hill above them (it has ocean views) and built
several large homes. The people who moved in directly
behind the farm didn't like seeing the nursery operations
while they gazed at their view. They tried their damnedest
to shut them down. Thankfully there are enough people
around here to see their property rights eaten up at town
meetings thatthey voted these idiots down. They bought
their $800,000 house knowing full well the nursery was
there. Tough luck for them.

heh heh. i hate those people with a passion... money doesn't
mean you have the right to get your way.

Yes, as things get more crowded some of this will happen.
The towns around here pretty much recognize that people buy
here because it's small-town New England, and with that
come farms, animals, etc. The townies rightfully resent
the newcomers who try to change the rules to citify things.
If you don't like what goes on in an area, then don't move
there. Stick to a nice, governed subdivision and leave the
rest of us alone.

you might push for your town to look into right to farm laws.
it's really doing a favor to the NIMBYs... most of them have
no clue where thier food comes from.
and go to the town meetings & selectmen's meetings. you have
to be there to vote down the streetlights & sidewalks, the
strip malls & big box stores the suburbanites *have* to have.
if they needed them so bad, they should have stayed in the
city!
lee
BTW, China has surpassed the US in meat production. i dunno
about you, but i don't want to eat any meat raised in China!
i'll keep my own steers.



--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Doug Kanter" expounded:

What if the permit is free, but requires a 5 minute look at the tree and a
5
minute talk with the property owner, just to be sure they're not cutting
it
down for stupid reasons? Would that be OK with you?

I guess I just don't see the need (and money has nothing to do with
it). Then again, I wouldn't cut down a beautiful tree for no reason
at all. And I wouldn't cut one down that a neighbor loved (we're
pretty close around here, and many of us are gardeners, or they've
become one living near one ) ) I see lots being cleared around
here and will notice a beautiful oak, and feel bad that it's going to
be cut down to make way for some McMansion. Every once in awhile I'll
notice a tree being left, purposely, it gives me hope someone who
cares is moving onto that lot.

Hey...I just noticed...you said "McMansion". You don't like developers who
build homes that are as ugly as a fat persons butt in hideous pink sweat
pants two sizes too small? Would it please you to have some sort of
architectural review process before someone could build one of those nasty
homes and clear cut everything in sight?

"presley" wrote in message
...
Years ago I was startled when a Swiss girl of my acquaintance in NYC told
me
that she hoped to move to the US. When I asked why, she said, "In
Switzerland, everyone is in your business - it is quite normal for every
one
of your neighbors to feel that it is their right and their duty to come
over
to your house and tell you that your yard has too many weeds, your front
stoop and sidewalks need sweeping, you have to put flowers in your
flowerboxes, etc..... in America, I don't think people do that". It seems
that in many crowded lands (the Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan) - there
is
tremendous social pressure to maintain appearances, and shame is used as a
weapon to keep people in line. However, the US, which was always laissez
faire in the past, partly because of its enormous size and the distance of
one neighbor from another, is rapidly becoming a crowded country too,
especially in certain regions. I think the tremendous energy this thread
has
generated is a reflection of a change in attitude. People are recognizing
on
a subconcious level that some of the freedoms (e.g. the freedom to be
eccentric) that are possible when people are spread out, start to become
problematic when people are in close proximity. Because we are a
legalistic
nation, I imagine that over time zoning regulations will take the place
that
shame has in other cultures. But all of that is going to arouse
resentment,
because it's a change from the values we were raised with.


That's very interesting. This discussion isn't new. It comes up on a
regular basis. There seem to be two camps. Camp A: If I pay for XYZ then
I have unlimited rights. Camp B: We are all interdependent. What you do
has an impact on me and therefore I have the right to an opinion and in some
cases a right to take action.

I agree with Victoria. The "Camp A" types are just people who haven't had
their buttons pushed yet. Everyone has limits.

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"Vox Humana" expounded:

"Oh my god, I haven't been on here for years. I scan down, open a post
and
its Ann from Massachusetts.
It must be 4 or 5 years since I stopped by here and you are still at it,
being a nasty, know it all bitch.
I would have thought a house would have fallen on you by now. Must be a
very
sad life you have lead."

Figures you'd enjoy a troll post. Find all those bitchy posts from
me. Oh, I guess because you and I have opposite views on politics
that means I'm a bitch. Ok. I can live with it. You are the one
that has to live with your hostility. I could feel sorry for you, but
I won't.

I would just add that for someone who claims that nothing is any of her
business, you sure have a way of getting into everyone's business. Oh,
and
look out for falling houses, it's tornado season.

I see. So, you can express your opinions, but I can't. Get over
yourself.

You might sign-up for one of these weather alert services. That way you
will know when houses are likely to be coming your way.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Stop it. You're being too logical.

In article ,
"Vox Humana" wrote:

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from Ann contains these words:

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner
the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current
custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or
inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its
species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the
neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of
soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something
very rare or special?

Stop it. You're being too logical.

The question is do tree's have standing...as I try to remember
arguments from 30 years ago. Some where John Seed or was it Johnny
wrote eloquent about this . Still 30 years hence and SUV's rule.

Bill

--
Garden Shade Zone 5 in a Japanese Jungle manner.
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material is distributed without profit.

"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Hey...I just noticed...you said "McMansion". You don't like developers who
build homes that are as ugly as a fat persons butt in hideous pink sweat
pants two sizes too small? Would it please you to have some sort of
architectural review process before someone could build one of those nasty
homes and clear cut everything in sight?

Oh, I can't see controlling it any better than what some of the towns
around here are doing, which is at least one acre zoning (although now
some towns have gone to two) with limits on how much land can be eaten
up by foundation - but that's control I really don't like. The
teardowns are pretty sad, too, a perfectly lovely cape over on Powder
Point in Duxbury (we call it Deluxebury) was moved to make room for a
huge palace (that no doubt will block the view of someone who already
lives there).....More people, more rules.

But see, one of my evil dreams is to buy a house on Main Street in
Hingham, paint it orange and black, with a nice loud Harley parked in
the tin shed out front - the apoplexic fits thrown would be worth the
price of admission ;-
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"Ann" wrote in message
...
Bourne Identity expounded:

I don't have bylaws either. No homeowners association. However, set by
the
county I do have deed restrictions and it is a ten thousand dollar fine
for
cutting down an old growth live oak.

Bylaws, county rules, whatever. It's just sad that people have to
have a rule force them to use common sense.


Common sense like you wrote a earlier?

"one of my evil dreams is to buy a house on Main Street in
Hingham, paint it orange and black, with a nice loud Harley parked in
the tin shed out front "

And she wonders why we have laws! Did someone mention that you would be a
hideous neighbor?

"Vox Humana" expounded:

And she wonders why we have laws! Did someone mention that you would be a
hideous neighbor?

A humorous neighbor, anyone but you would know I was joking. But
you're so bent on hating everything about me you're blind to it. Like
I said, get over yourself. Quit proving you are the one who would be
'hideous' to live next to.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************