I have a small backyard (18' by 30') and the lawn is several kinds of
grass and has been overrun by crabgrass and clover. There are also
hard bald patches where I can't get grass to grow. It's mostly sun and
the soil is fairly clayish. New York City area.

The local Garden World place suggested ripping it up with a tiller and
putting down lime, starter fertilizer, and seeding. I should then
cover it with some soil so the birds don't eat all the seed. I can
rent a light or medium duty tiller at the local Home Depot and I'll
likely do it this Saturday.

I've read that the existing lawn should be killed with Roundup or
another broadleaf herbicide, but I let my cats go into the yard and
don't want to put down anything that will harm them. They eat the
grass.

So my plan is to till it and try to remove as much of the existing
foliage as possible. It's really only around 400 sq feet of lawn so it
shouldn't be too backbreaking to get the stuff into bags once I rip it
up.

Actually my plan is to do it twice. The first time I get out the old
stuff, then put down the fertilizer and lime and such, and then till
it again to get it all mixed up well. Then seed.

Am I just wasting my time to try this without using Roundup? Should I
be mixing in peat moss?

Any comments greatly appreciated. Thanks.

On Apr 17, 8:04 am, dgk wrote:
I have a small backyard (18' by 30') and the lawn is several kinds of
grass and has been overrun by crabgrass and clover. There are also
hard bald patches where I can't get grass to grow. It's mostly sun and
the soil is fairly clayish. New York City area.

The local Garden World place suggested ripping it up with a tiller and
putting down lime, starter fertilizer, and seeding. I should then
cover it with some soil so the birds don't eat all the seed. I can
rent a light or medium duty tiller at the local Home Depot and I'll
likely do it this Saturday.

I've read that the existing lawn should be killed with Roundup or
another broadleaf herbicide, but I let my cats go into the yard and
don't want to put down anything that will harm them. They eat the
grass.

So my plan is to till it and try to remove as much of the existing
foliage as possible. It's really only around 400 sq feet of lawn so it
shouldn't be too backbreaking to get the stuff into bags once I rip it
up.

Actually my plan is to do it twice. The first time I get out the old
stuff, then put down the fertilizer and lime and such, and then till
it again to get it all mixed up well. Then seed.

Am I just wasting my time to try this without using Roundup? Should I
be mixing in peat moss?

Any comments greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I live in a completely different part oif the country than you
(Florida) but have just gone thru the
same procedure that you are planning...twice.

The first time (a year ago i did it without putting any roundup on the
lawn) I tilled the lawn and
laid down sod on top of our good soil here. withing a few months the
weeds were choking out the grass
and I had to do it all over again.

This time I put roundup on the lawn and killed off all the weeds and
existing grass. I just finished
tilling it and have raked off all of the dead weed and roots and
stuff. All I have is nice black dirt waiting
for the sod which will be delivered tomorrow.

Keep the cats inside for awhile while the roundup does its thing,

On Apr 17, 1:19 pm, Capri wrote:
On Apr 17, 8:04 am, dgk wrote:





I have a small backyard (18' by 30') and the lawn is several kinds of
grass and has been overrun by crabgrass and clover. There are also
hard bald patches where I can't get grass to grow. It's mostly sun and
the soil is fairly clayish. New York City area.

The local Garden World place suggested ripping it up with a tiller and
putting down lime, starter fertilizer, and seeding. I should then
cover it with some soil so the birds don't eat all the seed. I can
rent a light or medium duty tiller at the local Home Depot and I'll
likely do it this Saturday.

I've read that the existing lawn should be killed with Roundup or
another broadleaf herbicide, but I let my cats go into the yard and
don't want to put down anything that will harm them. They eat the
grass.

So my plan is to till it and try to remove as much of the existing
foliage as possible. It's really only around 400 sq feet of lawn so it
shouldn't be too backbreaking to get the stuff into bags once I rip it
up.

Actually my plan is to do it twice. The first time I get out the old
stuff, then put down the fertilizer and lime and such, and then till
it again to get it all mixed up well. Then seed.

Am I just wasting my time to try this without using Roundup? Should I
be mixing in peat moss?

Any comments greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I live in a completely different part oif the country than you
(Florida) but have just gone thru the
same procedure that you are planning...twice.

The first time (a year ago i did it without putting any roundup on the
lawn) I tilled the lawn and
laid down sod on top of our good soil here. withing a few months the
weeds were choking out the grass
and I had to do it all over again.

This time I put roundup on the lawn and killed off all the weeds and
existing grass. I just finished
tilling it and have raked off all of the dead weed and roots and
stuff. All I have is nice black dirt waiting
for the sod which will be delivered tomorrow.

Keep the cats inside for awhile while the roundup does its thing,- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'd also suggest going the Roundup route. Roundup breaks down
quickly, so you can seed as soon as the existing grass and weeds are
dead, which is about a week to 10 days. I'd just keep the cats off
it till it's been tilled.

I'd also suggest putting this off till Fall, which is by far the best
time to do this. You will have less competition from weeds, won't
have to worry about crabgrass, and with declining temps and Fall rain,
nature is on your side. If you do it now, you need to be able to
keep it well watered, including during the coming summer, when the new
grass won't have deep roots. If you do this in Sept, the grass has a
lot more time to establish in cool season Fall/Spring, which is what
it wants to do.

You can do it now, but be prepared to deliver a lot of water and to
deal with weeds.

Mixing in peat moss or similar organic matter is always a good thing.
It's just a trade off as to what you have available and how much it
costs vs what soil you have and how much it needs to be improved.

I would not cover the seed with soil, unless you have some method to
do that very evenly and lightly. Just raking the seed in lightly
should do the trick. Make sure you use the right type and best
quality seed.

On 17 Apr 2007 10:19:07 -0700, Capri wrote:

....

I live in a completely different part oif the country than you
(Florida) but have just gone thru the
same procedure that you are planning...twice.

The first time (a year ago i did it without putting any roundup on the
lawn) I tilled the lawn and
laid down sod on top of our good soil here. withing a few months the
weeds were choking out the grass
and I had to do it all over again.

This time I put roundup on the lawn and killed off all the weeds and
existing grass. I just finished
tilling it and have raked off all of the dead weed and roots and
stuff. All I have is nice black dirt waiting
for the sod which will be delivered tomorrow.

Keep the cats inside for awhile while the roundup does its thing,



Thanks, I was sort of afraid of that. But I just looked around for the
toxicity of Roundup and came across this:

http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/c...site/round.htm

Doesn't look too promising. Without the cats I might be willing to do
it but with the cats? No, I don't think so. There seem to be some safe
crabgrass killers such as this:

http://www.crabgrassalert.com/safe_herbicides.html

but I how do I really know that it's safe? Arrgh.

On 17 Apr 2007 10:49:20 -0700, wrote:

....

I'd also suggest going the Roundup route. Roundup breaks down
quickly, so you can seed as soon as the existing grass and weeds are
dead, which is about a week to 10 days. I'd just keep the cats off
it till it's been tilled.

I'd also suggest putting this off till Fall, which is by far the best
time to do this. You will have less competition from weeds, won't
have to worry about crabgrass, and with declining temps and Fall rain,
nature is on your side. If you do it now, you need to be able to
keep it well watered, including during the coming summer, when the new
grass won't have deep roots. If you do this in Sept, the grass has a
lot more time to establish in cool season Fall/Spring, which is what
it wants to do.

You can do it now, but be prepared to deliver a lot of water and to
deal with weeds.

Mixing in peat moss or similar organic matter is always a good thing.
It's just a trade off as to what you have available and how much it
costs vs what soil you have and how much it needs to be improved.

I would not cover the seed with soil, unless you have some method to
do that very evenly and lightly. Just raking the seed in lightly
should do the trick. Make sure you use the right type and best
quality seed.

Thanks, I've read that the best time is the fall so maybe I'll wait.
Another summer of bad grass won't kill me. But that Roundup looks
grim. A long half-life apparently.

dgk wrote:
I just looked around for the
toxicity of Roundup and came across this:

http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/c...site/round.htm


Not to worry at lawn kill dilution rate. Your mouthwash is -many- times
more toxic.

--
http://NewsReader.Com/

All I know is the TV new in the Austin, TX area said herbicide runoff like
roundup are killing invertebrates and fish in and near the local water hole
(Barton Springs).

The purpose of peat moss is to loosen up the soil and breaking down to feed
bacteria, which in turn makes the soil more nutritious to the foliage. I
don't know if your soil needs this or not. You said clay soil. Consider
some sandy soil added, and some peat moss or other organic to feed long
term. Use the tilller to mix it in.

--
Dave

Apathy and denial are close cousins
"dgk" wrote in message
...
I have a small backyard (18' by 30') and the lawn is several kinds of
grass and has been overrun by crabgrass and clover. There are also
hard bald patches where I can't get grass to grow. It's mostly sun and
the soil is fairly clayish. New York City area.

The local Garden World place suggested ripping it up with a tiller and
putting down lime, starter fertilizer, and seeding. I should then
cover it with some soil so the birds don't eat all the seed. I can
rent a light or medium duty tiller at the local Home Depot and I'll
likely do it this Saturday.

I've read that the existing lawn should be killed with Roundup or
another broadleaf herbicide, but I let my cats go into the yard and
don't want to put down anything that will harm them. They eat the
grass.

So my plan is to till it and try to remove as much of the existing
foliage as possible. It's really only around 400 sq feet of lawn so it
shouldn't be too backbreaking to get the stuff into bags once I rip it
up.

Actually my plan is to do it twice. The first time I get out the old
stuff, then put down the fertilizer and lime and such, and then till
it again to get it all mixed up well. Then seed.

Am I just wasting my time to try this without using Roundup? Should I
be mixing in peat moss?

Any comments greatly appreciated. Thanks.

On 18 Apr 2007 01:33:11 GMT, Steveo wrote:

dgk wrote:
I just looked around for the
toxicity of Roundup and came across this:

http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/c...site/round.htm


Not to worry at lawn kill dilution rate. Your mouthwash is -many- times
more toxic.

That may be, but I don't let the cats drink mouthwash. I don't drink
it either. But they would eat RoundUp if it's on the grass.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:39:10 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

All I know is the TV new in the Austin, TX area said herbicide runoff like
roundup are killing invertebrates and fish in and near the local water hole
(Barton Springs).

The purpose of peat moss is to loosen up the soil and breaking down to feed
bacteria, which in turn makes the soil more nutritious to the foliage. I
don't know if your soil needs this or not. You said clay soil. Consider
some sandy soil added, and some peat moss or other organic to feed long
term. Use the tilller to mix it in.

Thanks. Even if I don't manage to get rid of all the crabgrass and
clover, at least the soil will be stirred up. Before I do this I'll
try to get the soil analyzed to find out what I really need to do.

dgk wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 01:33:11 GMT, Steveo wrote:

dgk wrote:
I just looked around for the
toxicity of Roundup and came across this:

http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/c...site/round.htm


Not to worry at lawn kill dilution rate. Your mouthwash is -many- times
more toxic.

That may be, but I don't let the cats drink mouthwash. I don't drink
it either. But they would eat RoundUp if it's on the grass.

You put it in -your- mouth. I'd like to see a cat or dog die from eating
weeds that were sprayed with round-up. Never happens in 100 years.

--
http://NewsReader.Com/

I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway.

Eggsactly.

--
http://NewsReader.Com/

dgk said:

On 18 Apr 2007 01:33:11 GMT, Steveo wrote:

dgk wrote:
I just looked around for the
toxicity of Roundup and came across this:

http://www.alternatives2toxics.org/c...site/round.htm


Not to worry at lawn kill dilution rate. Your mouthwash is -many- times
more toxic.

That may be, but I don't let the cats drink mouthwash. I don't drink
it either. But they would eat RoundUp if it's on the grass.

And, since they're not made of plant material, they'll be fine. It may make
them puke, but the grass would do that anyway. The minute dose they would
receive from the few blades they'd eat would do nothing to them. You're
fsking clooless.

--

Eggs

-I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through...

wrote:
Steveo said:

I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway.

Eggsactly.

Ain't it funny how sometimes "random" becomes quite opportunistic? =)

Turn-about and something to do with fair play.

--
http://NewsReader.Com/

Steveo said:

I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway.

Eggsactly.

Ain't it funny how sometimes "random" becomes quite opportunistic? =)

--

Eggs

A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Roundup does have a half life, but a cat isn't a grazing animal. If you were
re-seeding a pasture where you were raising cattle, that would be one thing,
but for cats? Not a problem.

One option you do have is solarizing the grass by laying plastic sheeting on
one section at a time. Late this summer, you could buy some large plastic
drop cloths and cover (say) 1/3 of your yard at a time for a week or so,
then move the drop cloth to another area. That'll kill the grass and weeks,
then you can till without having to resort to round-up.

KB


"dgk" wrote in message
...
On 17 Apr 2007 10:49:20 -0700, wrote:

...

I'd also suggest going the Roundup route. Roundup breaks down
quickly, so you can seed as soon as the existing grass and weeds are
dead, which is about a week to 10 days. I'd just keep the cats off
it till it's been tilled.

I'd also suggest putting this off till Fall, which is by far the best
time to do this. You will have less competition from weeds, won't
have to worry about crabgrass, and with declining temps and Fall rain,
nature is on your side. If you do it now, you need to be able to
keep it well watered, including during the coming summer, when the new
grass won't have deep roots. If you do this in Sept, the grass has a
lot more time to establish in cool season Fall/Spring, which is what
it wants to do.

You can do it now, but be prepared to deliver a lot of water and to
deal with weeds.

Mixing in peat moss or similar organic matter is always a good thing.
It's just a trade off as to what you have available and how much it
costs vs what soil you have and how much it needs to be improved.

I would not cover the seed with soil, unless you have some method to
do that very evenly and lightly. Just raking the seed in lightly
should do the trick. Make sure you use the right type and best
quality seed.

Thanks, I've read that the best time is the fall so maybe I'll wait.
Another summer of bad grass won't kill me. But that Roundup looks
grim. A long half-life apparently.