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Old 29-12-2007, 07:11 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Dec 28, 2:02*am, Bosco wrote:
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 07:42:51 -0800 (PST), z
wrote:





On Dec 26, 9:48*pm, Art wrote:
z wrote:
On Dec 26, 12:37 pm, Art wrote:
z wrote:
On Dec 19, 9:47 am, "Ryan P."
wrote:
* That's half false. *Obviously, global warming occurs. *However,
nothing approaching a majority of scientists agree that HUMANS are the
*main* factor.
Well, as long as we're talking SCIENCE here, I assume you have
quantitative data. So, what estimated percentage of "scientists agree
that HUMANS are the *main* factor"? (of course, you can just point us
towards the reference for the study which determined the number.)
Just about the same percentage that are getting gov't money to research it.


Yep, just exactly the "rightwing scientific" answer I was looking for..
So, moving on in this direction of rightwing "facts", I'd love to hear
how the grant process goes. I mean, nobody "researches global
warming"; they just research CO2 levels in ice cores, etc. So, how do
you apply for a grant to show global warming? The grant applications
just say you're going to measure CO2 levels in ice cores, they don't
say which direction you're going to find things, do you have to put
that in a separate cover letter? Then, is that legally binding, so
that they sue you to give them money back if you publish results that
don't show global warming? It's important that the public know these
things, don't you think? So you should let us in on the secrets,
rather than keep them to yourself.


Common sense says it's crap. I've been around a while and in just my
lifetime - Nuclear war was gonna destroy the planet; then the ozone hole
was gonna kill us all; now it's global warming. 10 years from now there
will be a new doomsday theory.


There have been people that claim "the end is near" as far back as
recorded history and they all have one thing in common. They were wrong..
Many people just don't believe them anymore and I'm one of them. Has
nothing to do with right or left wing.


Even if man is causing an "unnatural" rise in CO2, nature has an
incredible ability to bring things back into balance. There is little if
anything that man can do to this planet that nature hasn't done on a
much larger scale.


Oh, I'm not worried about the planet. I'm worried about my kids.
They're not nearly as sturdy as the planet.


you brought offspring into this world ?

offspring who will use up more and more resources that can NOT easily
be replaced?

You selfish unthinking *******. *Thanks to YOU Earth will overheat
turning into a HELL planet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Actually I recycled them from some folks who didn't need them any more.
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Old 29-12-2007, 07:12 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Dec 28, 6:25*am, Art wrote:
z wrote:

Oh, I'm not worried about the planet. I'm worried about my kids.
They're not nearly as sturdy as the planet.


Then teach them the lessons from the fable "Chicken Little".


"Once there was a chicken who tried to explain to the other chickens
that the nice guy who came and gave them food every day was going to
kill and eat them, and all the other chickens laughed and said it
couldn't happen"
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Old 29-12-2007, 07:22 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Dec 29, 1:06*am, z wrote:
On Dec 27, 1:48*pm, "Ryan P."
wrote:





z wrote:
On Dec 26, 6:32 pm, Lar wrote:


This is how rightwing urban legends are built; piece by piece. Like
the legend that ""experts were equally convinced that the planet faced
a possible mini ice age from a cooling trend."
Here's a story Time Magazine ran in '74http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944914,00.html


Lar


If you're quoting Time Magazine as your climate "expert", you've
pretty much shot yourself in the mouth right at the start. Who does
that article quote as "scientists"? Well, Reid A. Bryson and Donald
Oilman, both of whom are now widely quoted AGAINST the concept of
global warming, and Kenneth Hare, who is quoted as saying that if the


.
.
* You are making any argument with you impossible. *I could just as
easily say that anybody you cite is FOR the concept of (man-made) global
warming, and therefore can't be trusted.


Hmm. Have to make this simple.

Your argument seems to be something like this:
1) "experts" in the 70s argued that global cooling is coming
2) they were wrong
3) "experts" now argue global warming is coming
4) so you don't put any faith in it.

Whereas, my argument is
3a) the few "experts" in the 70s who argued that global cooling are
coming, are the ones that are now arguing that global warming is NOT
coming; so you logically ought to not believe them, and believe the
folks who did not say global cooling was coming.-


PS: see also "They predicted a big hurricane season last year and it
was minimal, so I don't believe when they predict global warming", vs.
the fact that Dr. Bill Gray, the US' leading hurricane forcaster, who
predicted the big hurricane season that didn't come, is another of the
oft-quoted climate change skeptics.

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Old 29-12-2007, 06:27 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

Ryan P. wrote:
Art wrote:

Are we allowed to tach fables anymore? I would have thought that
they were considered to violoent by today's Politically Correct
educational system?

The Season 1 box set of "Sesame Street" was labeled "Not Suitable
For Children" afterall...


No one has to "allow" me to teach anything to my children. To pass on
values, morals and common sense is the purpose of fables. You should
not count on today's educational system to teach such. It is the
parents' responsibility to fill in in these areas where the schools
fall short.

.
.
I agree 100%. Too bad GOOD parents have to spend so much energy to
unteach the socialist dogma that is drilled into their children by
public schools these days.

But I was actually asking a serious question. I remember reading
Aesop's Fables and discussing the moral lessons in grade school. Have
they been changed and altered the way the lyrics to popular nursery
rhymes have been?


I have a tattered old book that has all the ones I grew up with. I
imagine someone has passed them through a PC filter and re-published
them but I'd bet one could still find the original versions if they
looked. The way the internet is these days one could probably find
dozens of versions on-line. I'm too lazy to go look, I like my old and
tattered copy...

--
Art
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Old 29-12-2007, 06:28 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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z wrote:
On Dec 28, 6:25 am, Art wrote:
z wrote:

Oh, I'm not worried about the planet. I'm worried about my kids.
They're not nearly as sturdy as the planet.

Then teach them the lessons from the fable "Chicken Little".


"Once there was a chicken who tried to explain to the other chickens
that the nice guy who came and gave them food every day was going to
kill and eat them, and all the other chickens laughed and said it
couldn't happen"


Plonk.

--
Art


  #66   Report Post  
Old 30-12-2007, 05:29 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

On Dec 29, 9:48*am, "Ryan P."
wrote:
z wrote:

Whereas, my argument is
3a) the few "experts" in the 70s who argued that global cooling are
coming, are the ones that are now arguing that global warming is NOT
coming; so you logically ought to not believe them, and believe the
folks who did not say global cooling was coming.-


.
.
* No, I personally don't put much faith in ANY hyped "potential" issue.
* Going to school in the 80's, I remember FREQUENT mentions of mini
ice-ages and related issues.
.
.

PS: see also "They predicted a big hurricane season last year and it
was minimal, so I don't believe when they predict global warming", vs.
the fact that Dr. Bill Gray, the US' leading hurricane forcaster, who
predicted the big hurricane season that didn't come, is another of the
oft-quoted climate change skeptics.


.
.
* Which should be proof that ANY climatologist is just guessing at
what's going to happen beyond the 3-day forecast.


Yeah, that's a good one. "The people who agree with me are obvious
idiots, therefore I distrust the people who disagree with me, also".
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Old 30-12-2007, 05:31 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

On Dec 29, 12:28*pm, Art wrote:

Plonk.


I'm sorry, did someone ask about your drinking preferences?

  #68   Report Post  
Old 30-12-2007, 05:32 AM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

On Dec 29, 9:59*am, "Ryan P."
wrote:
z wrote:
On Dec 28, 8:27 pm, Bosco wrote:


You think it's a "debate" with this guy. *It's not. *He couldn't care
less about differring views he's only interested in spreading the
gosple according to Algore.


What is it with you guys and Al Gore? Do you now believe he claims to
have invented global warming, like you believe he claims to have
invented the Internet?


.
.
* It's not that he invented global warming... its the fact that he has
latched onto it in an attempt to build himself a Legacy. *Its the fact
that he uses his (ahem) celebrity status to promote bad science (direct
quote from the British "guide" to the movie when shown in schools:
"...in parts of the film, Gore presents evidence and arguments which do
not accord with mainstream scientific opinion."

* Oh..he happens to be getting rich(er) from promoting alarmist
scenarios instead of scientific studies.


And you figure that he would, of course, latch on to something
erroneous, since there aren't any causes which are correct that he
could latch on to.
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Old 31-12-2007, 05:06 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

On Dec 30, 12:42*am, "Ryan P."
wrote:

* If experts were wrong 25 years ago, they can be wrong today. *Today,
we *have groups of experts saying completely different things. *Hence,
there is debate (despite those of you who like to yell at the top of
your lungs that 'the debate is over.")


No, you got one group of experts who were wrong 25 years ago but with
whom you agree today, and another group who were not wrong 25 years
ago, and with whom you disagree today. There isn't a 50/50 random
distribution; there were folks who were wrong and folks who weren't.
And you've decided the folks who were wrong, are probably the best
predictors of what's really going on. Unless you have some reason
other than to lump them all together as "experts" you're allied with
the wrong side of the "debate".
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Old 31-12-2007, 05:08 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Dec 28, 5:51*pm, Art wrote:

No one has to "allow" me to teach anything to my children. To pass on
values, morals and common sense is the purpose of fables. You should not
count on today's educational system to teach such. It is the parents'
responsibility to fill in in these areas where the schools fall short.


So sad your parents failed to do so.


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Old 31-12-2007, 05:28 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:42:11 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

z wrote:

.
.
Which should be proof that ANY climatologist is just guessing at
what's going to happen beyond the 3-day forecast.


Yeah, that's a good one. "The people who agree with me are obvious
idiots, therefore I distrust the people who disagree with me, also".

.
.
Read for context... This whole discussion is about whether or not
man-made rapid climate change is taking place.

If experts were wrong 25 years ago, they can be wrong today. Today,
we have groups of experts saying completely different things. Hence,
there is debate (despite those of you who like to yell at the top of
your lungs that 'the debate is over.")


More news:

2007 a Year of Weather Records in US
By Seth Borenstein
The Associated Press

Saturday 29 December 2007

Washington - When the calendar turned to 2007, the heat went on
and the weather just got weirder.

January was the warmest first month on record worldwide - 1.53
degrees above normal. It was the first time since record-keeping began
in 1880 that the globe's average temperature has been so far above the
norm for any month of the year.

And as 2007 drew to a close, it was also shaping up to be the
hottest year on record in the Northern Hemisphere.

U.S. weather stations broke or tied 263 all-time high temperature
records, according to an Associated Press analysis of U.S. weather
data. England had the warmest April in 348 years of record-keeping
there, shattering the record set in 1865 by more than 1.1 degrees
Fahrenheit.

It wasn't just the temperature. There were other oddball weather
events. A tornado struck New York City in August, inspiring the
tabloid headline: "This ain't Kansas!"

In the Middle East, an equally rare cyclone spun up in June,
hitting Oman and Iran. Major U.S. lakes shrank; Atlanta had to worry
about its drinking water supply. South Africa got its first
significant snowfall in 25 years. And on Reunion Island, 400 miles
east of Africa, nearly 155 inches of rain fell in three days - a world
record for the most rain in 72 hours.

Individual weather extremes can't be attributed to global warming,
scientists always say. However, "it's the run of them and the
different locations" that have the mark of man-made climate change,
said top European climate expert Phil Jones, director of the climate
research unit at the University of East Anglia in England.

Worst of all - at least according to climate scientists - the
Arctic, which serves as the world's refrigerator, dramatically warmed
in 2007, shattering records for the amount of melting ice.

2007 seemed to be the year that climate change shook the
thermometers, and those who warned that it was beginning to happen
were suddenly honored. Former Vice President Al Gore's documentary "An
Inconvenient Truth" won an Oscar and he shared the Nobel Peace Prize
with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, an international
group of thousands of scientists. The climate panel, organized by the
United Nations, released four major reports in 2007 saying man-made
global warming was incontrovertible and an urgent threat to millions
of lives.

Through the first 10 months, it was the hottest year recorded on
land and the third hottest when ocean temperatures are included.

Smashing records was common, especially in August. At U.S. weather
stations, more than 8,000 new heat records were set or tied for
specific August dates.

More remarkably that same month, more than 100 all-time
temperature records were tied or broken - regardless of the date -
either for the highest reading or the warmest low temperature at
night. By comparison only 14 all-time low temperatures were set or
tied all year long, as of early December, according to records kept by
the National Climatic Data Center.

For example, on Aug. 10, the town of Portland, Tenn., reached 102
degrees, tying a record for the hottest it ever had been. On Aug. 16,
it hit 103 and Portland had a new all-time record. But that record was
broken again the next day when the mercury reached 105.

Daily triple-digit temperatures took a toll on everybody, public
safety director George West recalled. The state had 15 heat-related
deaths in August.

Portland was far from alone. In Idaho, Chilly Barton Flat wasn't
living up to its name. The weather station in central Idaho tied an
all-time high of 100 on July 26, Aug. 7, 14 and 19. During 2007,
weather stations in 35 states, from Washington to Florida, set or tied
all-time heat records in 2007.

Across Europe this past summer, extreme heat waves killed dozens
of people.

And it wasn't just the heat. It was the rain. There was either too
little or too much.

More than 60 percent of the United States was either abnormally
dry or suffering from drought at one point in August. In November,
Atlanta's main water source, Lake Lanier, shrank to an all-time low.
Lake Okeechobee, crucial to south Florida, hit its lowest level in
recorded history in May, exposing muck and debris not seen for
decades. Lake Superior, the biggest and deepest of the Great Lakes,
dropped to its lowest August and September levels in history.

Los Angeles hit its driest year on record. Lakes fed by the
Colorado River and which help supply water for more than 20 million
Westerners, were only half full.

Australia, already a dry continent, suffered its worst drought in
a century, making global warming an election issue. On the other
extreme, record rains fell in China, England and Wales.

Minnesota got the worst of everything: a devastating June and July
drought followed by record August rainfall. In one March day, Southern
California got torrential downpours, hail, snow and fierce winds. Then
in the fall came devastating fires driven by Santa Ana winds.

And yet none of those events worried scientists as much as what
was going on in the Arctic in the summer. Sea ice melted not just to
record levels, but far beyond the previous melt record. The Northwest
Passage was the most navigable it had been in modern times. Russia
planted a flag on the seabed under the North Pole, claiming
sovereignty.

The ice sheets that cover a portion of Greenland retreated to an
all-time low and permafrost in Alaska warmed to record levels.

Meteorologists have chronicled strange weather years for more than
a decade, but nothing like 2007. It was such an extreme weather year
that the World Meteorological Organization put out a news release
chronicling all the records and unusual developments. That was in
August with more than 145 sizzling days to go.

Get used to it, scientists said. As man-made climate change
continues, the world will experience more extreme weather, bursts of
heat, torrential rain and prolonged drought, they said.

"We're having an increasing trend of odd years," said Michael
MacCracken, a former top federal climate scientist, now chief
scientist at the Climate Institute in Washington. "Pretty soon odd
years are going to become the norm."

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Old 31-12-2007, 07:31 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:19:32 -0600, "Ryan P."
wrote:

And the news continues from the other side:

Al Gore says global warming is a planetary emergency. It is difficult to
see how this can be so when record low temperatures are being set all
over the world. In 2007, hundreds of people died, not from global
warming, but from cold weather hazards.

....

Ryan, global warming predicts this. More energy = more odd weather, on
average, warmer but lots colder in places.

I thought you believed the earth was getting warmer but that it wasn't
human action, but now you're throwing in stuff pretending that the
earth is getting cooler. Which is it?
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Old 31-12-2007, 08:05 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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For more information on global warming and to post information about
it please visite:

www.Myclimatechange.net.

++
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Old 31-12-2007, 09:13 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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Default Global warming my ass!

On Dec 31, 1:20*pm, "Ryan P."
wrote:
z wrote:
On Dec 28, 5:51 pm, Art wrote:


No one has to "allow" me to teach anything to my children. To pass on
values, morals and common sense is the purpose of fables. You should not
count on today's educational system to teach such. It is the parents'
responsibility to fill in in these areas where the schools fall short.


So sad your parents failed to do so.


.
.
* So...because he doesn't agree with you, he is a substandard person?


You too.
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Old 31-12-2007, 09:15 PM posted to alt.home.lawn.garden
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On Dec 31, 1:31*pm, dgk wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:19:32 -0600, "Ryan P."

wrote:
*And the news continues from the other side:


Al Gore says global warming is a planetary emergency. It is difficult to
see how this can be so when record low temperatures are being set all
over the world. In 2007, hundreds of people died, not from global
warming, but from cold weather hazards.


...

Ryan, global warming predicts this. More energy = more odd weather, on
average, warmer but lots colder in places.

I thought you believed the earth was getting warmer but that it wasn't
human action, but now you're throwing in stuff pretending that the
earth is getting cooler. Which is it?


As soon as your opponent displays that he believes that "the earth
isn't warming" and, simultaneously, that "the earth is warming, but
it's not manmade", you might as well give up the debate.
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