On Nov 3, 10:26*am, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:
Never indicated in any shape, fashion or form that I subscribe to making of
"teas" for application to the lawn. *Just that its there to try. *A
respondent wanted more information, I said want I knew off the top of my
head. *Then, you jump in and make all these negatives, of which you want
demanding evidence of their actual workability. *See my first sentence
here...


This is exactly what you posted:

"After you mulch the leaves, aid the decompostion with a wetting agent
and
something that aids bacteria in breaking down those leaves. There are
a few
"teas" in combination out there in recipes to put in your hose
sprayer
bottle. "


Now excuse me, but that doesn't sound like "I heard somewhere that
tea, beer, whatever MIGHT work. Any reasonable reader here would
take that statement as recommending teas as a lawn procedure known by
you to work. It's sort of like a guy asking what underlayment he
needs for a new tile floor and you responding with "You can use straw
because that's the extent of your limited familiarity and direct
knowledge of the subject. How useful is that?




I did rent a 2 DVDs from netflix regarding gardening. *Its whole and
entirety was about such "teas". *Did not know that from title of the DVD
prior to renting same. *I did watch both in boredom. *I don't remember the
amounts for dilution. *I do remember this self proclaimed "master gardener"
stating amounts of said product, then in the video showing said "master
gardener" measuring the product in an obviously another amount of said
product. *Sometimes, twice as much as orally stated.

I Googled for "lawn", "beer", and "tea" in same search. *Try it.

Here is the "master gardener" noted above:http://www.dptvmedia.org/home.php?cat=50

In fairness, here's an opposing opinon about the beer thing:http://www.homeabc.net/Garden-Landsc...Landscape.html

Seems to me it would be more prudent economically to incorporate some yeast
prediluted in warm water via hose sprayer, than beer. *That is, if their
premise of the yeast in the beer aiding leaf eating bacteria is real.
--
Dave


You do realize that most yeast in beer dies as the carbs are converted
to alcohol and depleted and the alcohol level rises? And that most
beer is pasteurized? Certainly all the common brands that a person
would likely grab when the recipe just says "beer". So, goodbye
yeast. And you'd have to question the basic knowledge of these
geniuses recommending crap like this, when they obviously don't even
know what beer is.

wrote:

Because in most rural places with folks with lots of
trees and experience, bagging doesn't exist.

And it doesn't apply.

I'm talking about urban properties - not rural.

Here anyone who wants to have their leaves taken away, simply
blows or rakes them into the street. The township comes by
every couple of weeks from Nov thru Dec and vacuums them up.

But even in that case, the leaves are removed. Doesn't matter if it's
by blowing and then vacuuming or by raking and bagging.

If you did a little research, you'd find that there is widespread
agreement that mulching the clippings and leaving them is
beneficial to the lawn. The clippings decay and provide nutrients.

The nutient value of grass is so poor that nobody uses grass to make
compost.

You want a healthy lawn, you use fertilizer. The cut grass from last
season will not nourish your lawn anywhere near what a bag of fertilizer
will do. You want to promote thatch and give a home to bugs, then leave
your clippings on the lawn.

Beneficial to the companies harvesting trees to make those bags,

I highly doubt that paper leaf bags are made from anything other than
recycled paper and cardboard. Not freshly-cut trees. Maybe tree bark.

... I'd say there isn't anything natural or good for the environment
in the whole process.

I don't use paper bags for leaves because you can't pack them without
tearing them. That's why I use plastic garbage bags.

Hmmm, what about on all the streets and roads in a municipality
where there are just trees and no homes? Like in the country?

You don't have curbs and gutters and storm sewers on country roads. You
have paved or soft-shoulders where leaves don't accumulate on the
roads. So it's a non-issue in the country.

In conclusion, I'd like to see some credible reference that agrees
with your premise that mulching lawn grass clippings or mulching a
reasonable amount of leaves in-situ with a mower, is incompatible
with a healthy lawn.

If you already have a thatch buildup (1/2 inch or more) you do NOT want
to leave your cut grass on the lawn. If your grass has certain diseases
(snow mold, powdery mildew, etc) you DO NOT want to leave your cut grass
on the lawn.

If you want a THICK lawn that you don't need to cut every 5 days, then
bag your grass. The alternative being promoted to weed killer is to
regularly overseed your lawn, resulting in a thicker lawn. Again,
leaving the cut grass on the lawn only works if your lawn is relatively
sparse (vs thick) and requires more frequent cutting. The theoretical
BEST that grass cuttings can do when left on the lawn is to provide only
25% of the nutrients required. Water content claims of cut grass
varries wildly from 75% to 90%.

Bagging your grass has been villified in recent years because
municipalities want to desperately keep cut grass out of landfills
because many landfills are reaching capacity. That's why you hear so
much about the benefits of not bagging your grass. They're all
imaginary benefits. Terms like "Grasscycling" are being invented as
part of this propaganda.

If you want a good lawn, you bag your grass, and you deal with the
clippings by doing something other than putting them in your local
municiple landfill.

Many municipalities have yard waste drop-off depots where home owners
can bring various tree and brush cuttings for disposal for no charge.
The depots will grind them up and turn them into a compost or mulch, and
sell it back to the public. What you will find is that they won't
accept cut grass or use cut grass in the mulch, or will charge $1 a bag
and make you dump the grass into it's own dumpster. But why? Why not
take the grass for free? Why keep the grass segregated into it's own
pile? If cut grass is so beneficial and high in nutrients, why
discourage citizens from bringing it to the depots? Why doesn't this
grass get incorporated into the mulch along with tree branches and other
yard waste materials?

Why? Because cut grass is shit and has little to no nutrient value and
is high in carbon. If it's not good enough for municiple compost piles
it's not good enough for your lawn.

Quite the contrary, I've seen plenty of authorities
that say returning either grass clippings or other
organic matter in reasonable amounts is beneficial
to the lawn.

It's all propaganda.

They simply don't want to see the grass occupy valuble space in rapidly
shrinking municiple landfills.

Also, if you have something that supports your claim that
leaf removal is necessary to protect the health of trees
in the yard, I'd like to see that too.

-----------------
http://imfc.cfl.scf.rncan.gc.ca/mala...ng.asp?geID=29

Maple leaf spot

The fungus creates small brown spots on the leaves and, in severe
infections, when most of the foliage is affected, the leaves may be shed
prematurely. Growing leaves are infected in the spring and initially
develop yellowish-green spots. The leaves eventually die and turn a
brownish colour. Black fruiting bodies of the fungus develop in the
infected spots around the end of autumn. The spores produced by these
fruiting bodies over winter in the leaf litter and cause new infections
the following spring.

As with many foliar fungal diseases, cool, wet spring weather greatly
favours the spread of the disease. To protect ornamental trees, the
leaves of affected trees should be carefully collected and destroyed by
burning or composting.
-------------------

That is just one example of a tree disease that is promoted and
propagated year-after-year by not raking, bagging or otherwise removing
leaf litter in the fall.

See also

http://georgegosselin.com/nstsl/program_description.htm

------------------
.... plant disease pathogens form three groups: fungi, bacteria, and
viruses. Of the three the majority are fungi. These pathogens exist
virtually everywhere, but those causing plant diseases are found
primarily in the soil and plant debris such as mulch and leaf litter.
You can help to reduce diseases in you landscape by simply removing old
mulch. leaf litter, etc at the end of the season (mid November -
December) and leaving the soil naked over the winter months.
------------------

Dioclese wrote:

It's my opinion that (most, many, or all) people would like to have
an extra $10 in their pocket right now. Is that an opinion, or
fact?

In my opinion, depends on the cost of getting that $10.00.

Don't side-track the question. The issue of cost was not raised nor was
part of the question.

Can an opinion never be shown to also be a fact?

That question remains unanswered.

On Oct 29, 9:06*am, willshak wrote:
If no scientific study available, which is better in your experience or
opinion?
Raking all the leaves off the lawn before winter, or leaving the leaves
where they fell, and under a blanket of snow (see sig for location). If
left on the lawn where they fell, would the nutrients be better released
by melting snow, and also provide a smidgen of insulation for the ground?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

I wouldn't recommend leaving the leaves under the snow. They tend to
get moldy & its not good for your yard come spring.

On Oct 29, 10:06*am, willshak wrote:
If no scientific study available, which is better in your experience or
opinion?
Raking all the leaves off the lawn before winter, or leaving the leaves
where they fell, and under a blanket of snow (see sig for location). If
left on the lawn where they fell, would the nutrients be better released
by melting snow, and also provide a smidgen of insulation for the ground?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

in addition to those who point out that nonshredded leaves will
smother the lawn, it's not true that you need to protect the grass
from the cold; the other way around. the grass is more tolerant to the
cold than a lot of weeds and insect pests; it's usually recommended
you give the lawn it's shortest haircut just before winter, compared
to summer when you leave it long to keep it cool.

doing the lawn with a good mulching mower will process the leaves
nicely so they decay quickly and feed the lawn.

On Nov 3, 9:19*pm, Lawn Guy wrote:

Can an opinion never be shown to also be a fact?

That question remains unanswered.

this is making my head explode
i feel like that robot on star trek who gets stuck with the paradox by
kirk and spock and burns out.

On Nov 3, 8:28*am, wrote:
On Nov 1, 9:11*am, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:

A typical wetting agent is common dishwashing (manual) liquid detergent..
A typical agent for aiding "good" bacteria that eats lawn refuse like leaves
and grass cuttings is the common beer.

I'd like to see any credible authority that has done any actual
testing or at least offers a scientific explanation for the idea that
spreading beer around a lawn is going to aid good bacteria or make any
difference in the lawn. * What exactly in beer is going to promote
this miracle effect? * *I'm betting this is another urban legend,
often repeated, but without basis. * I'd love to see this tested on
Mythbusters.

The typical nonsense says to mix up a gallon or two of this stuff
using a couple beers, then says to spray it on the lawn. * Hmmm, they
usually fail to mention anything about the application rate, which
immediately brings their knowledge base into serious question.

Teas are not an exact science of mixtures and percentages related to water.

Why am I not surprised?

They are highly biodegradable, so one person's recipe in terms of amount
related to water may differ much from anothers. *So, its difficult to make a
mistake that will genuinely adversely affect the plants and trees.

Lawn cuttings are also highly biodegradable by themselves.





Not related to the issue at hand:
Typical agent to aid nitrogen level is common household ammonia.
Typical agent for fending off insects is chewing tobacco immersed in a nylon
stocking for 24 hours or more in warm area. *The resulting liquid is placed
in the hose sprayer, not the wetted tobbaco itself.

If you don't want to accelerate the process, place leaves and grass cuttings
in a small circular fence area and stack it. *Takes about a year, keep it
moist, not wet. *When its "cooked" put it where you want. *Don't put your
gold at curbside for trash pickup.
--
Dave

If it looks like fish, smells like fish, its not
a cantaloupe."Keith Corwell" wrote in message

...

Tell me more about the "TEAS" I always have just mulched up the leaves and
let them lay.

"Dioclese" NONE wrote in message
om...
"willshak" wrote in message
news:UradncEQJreU4ZXUnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@supernews. com...
If no scientific study available, which is better in your experience or
opinion?
Raking all the leaves off the lawn before winter, or leaving the leaves
where they fell, and under a blanket of snow (see sig for location). If
left on the lawn where they fell, would the nutrients be better
released
by melting snow, and also provide a smidgen of insulation for the
ground?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

After you mulch the leaves, aid the decompostion with a wetting agent and
something that aids bacteria in breaking down those leaves. *There are a
few
"teas" in combination out there in recipes to put in your hose sprayer
bottle.
--
Dave

If it looks like fish, smells like fish, its not
a cantaloupe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i bought a bag of compost starter from gardens alive when i fired up
the first compost pile, although i wasn't absolutely sure i needed it,
but since then i rely on the remains of the former compost to
inoculate the new compost. kind of like sourdough. for one thing, i
figure the mix of organisms will tailor itself to my precise
conditions. (how can you tell i used to be a microbiologist?)

On Nov 3, 11:21*am, wrote:
On Nov 3, 10:26*am, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:

Never indicated in any shape, fashion or form that I subscribe to making of
"teas" for application to the lawn. *Just that its there to try. *A
respondent wanted more information, I said want I knew off the top of my
head. *Then, you jump in and make all these negatives, of which you want
demanding evidence of their actual workability. *See my first sentence
here...

This is exactly what you posted:

"After you mulch the leaves, aid the decompostion with a wetting agent
and
something that aids bacteria in breaking down those leaves. *There are
a few
"teas" in combination out there in recipes to put in your hose
sprayer
bottle. "

Now excuse me, but that doesn't sound like "I heard somewhere that
tea, beer, whatever MIGHT work. * Any reasonable reader here would
take that statement as recommending teas as a lawn procedure known by
you to work. *It's sort of like a guy asking what underlayment he
needs for a new tile floor and you responding with "You can use straw
because that's the extent of your limited familiarity and direct
knowledge of the subject. * How useful is that?







I did rent a 2 DVDs from netflix regarding gardening. *Its whole and
entirety was about such "teas". *Did not know that from title of the DVD
prior to renting same. *I did watch both in boredom. *I don't remember the
amounts for dilution. *I do remember this self proclaimed "master gardener"
stating amounts of said product, then in the video showing said "master
gardener" measuring the product in an obviously another amount of said
product. *Sometimes, twice as much as orally stated.

I Googled for "lawn", "beer", and "tea" in same search. *Try it.

Here is the "master gardener" noted above:http://www.dptvmedia.org/home..php?cat=50

In fairness, here's an opposing opinon about the beer thing:http://www.homeabc.net/Garden-Landsc...Landscape.html

Seems to me it would be more prudent economically to incorporate some yeast
prediluted in warm water via hose sprayer, than beer. *That is, if their
premise of the yeast in the beer aiding leaf eating bacteria is real.
--
Dave

You do realize that most yeast in beer dies as the carbs are converted
to alcohol and depleted and the alcohol level rises? * And that most
beer is pasteurized? * Certainly all the common brands that a person
would likely grab when the recipe just says "beer". * So, goodbye
yeast. *And you'd have to question the basic knowledge of these
geniuses recommending crap like this, when they obviously don't even
know what beer is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i think the assumption would be that the nutrients left by the yeast,
dead or alive, would be helpful to the bacteria, mold, etc. i'm not
entirely sure, though, that that's helpful; after all, the goal is to
get the compost digested by the bacteria, not to raise healthy
bacteria because they don't have to eat the compost.

On Nov 4, 11:43*am, z wrote:
On Nov 3, 11:21*am, wrote:





On Nov 3, 10:26*am, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:

Never indicated in any shape, fashion or form that I subscribe to making of
"teas" for application to the lawn. *Just that its there to try. *A
respondent wanted more information, I said want I knew off the top of my
head. *Then, you jump in and make all these negatives, of which you want
demanding evidence of their actual workability. *See my first sentence
here...

This is exactly what you posted:

"After you mulch the leaves, aid the decompostion with a wetting agent
and
something that aids bacteria in breaking down those leaves. *There are
a few
"teas" in combination out there in recipes to put in your hose
sprayer
bottle. "

Now excuse me, but that doesn't sound like "I heard somewhere that
tea, beer, whatever MIGHT work. * Any reasonable reader here would
take that statement as recommending teas as a lawn procedure known by
you to work. *It's sort of like a guy asking what underlayment he
needs for a new tile floor and you responding with "You can use straw
because that's the extent of your limited familiarity and direct
knowledge of the subject. * How useful is that?

I did rent a 2 DVDs from netflix regarding gardening. *Its whole and
entirety was about such "teas". *Did not know that from title of the DVD
prior to renting same. *I did watch both in boredom. *I don't remember the
amounts for dilution. *I do remember this self proclaimed "master gardener"
stating amounts of said product, then in the video showing said "master
gardener" measuring the product in an obviously another amount of said
product. *Sometimes, twice as much as orally stated.

I Googled for "lawn", "beer", and "tea" in same search. *Try it.

Here is the "master gardener" noted above:http://www.dptvmedia.org/home.php?cat=50

In fairness, here's an opposing opinon about the beer thing:http://www.homeabc.net/Garden-Landsc...Landscape.html

Seems to me it would be more prudent economically to incorporate some yeast
prediluted in warm water via hose sprayer, than beer. *That is, if their
premise of the yeast in the beer aiding leaf eating bacteria is real.
--
Dave

You do realize that most yeast in beer dies as the carbs are converted
to alcohol and depleted and the alcohol level rises? * And that most
beer is pasteurized? * Certainly all the common brands that a person
would likely grab when the recipe just says "beer". * So, goodbye
yeast. *And you'd have to question the basic knowledge of these
geniuses recommending crap like this, when they obviously don't even
know what beer is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i think the assumption would be that the nutrients left *by the yeast,
dead or alive, would be helpful to the bacteria, mold, etc. i'm not
entirely sure, though, that that's helpful; after all, the goal is to
get the compost digested by the bacteria, not to raise healthy
bacteria because they don't have to eat the compost.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And after you take a 6 pack and distribute it across half an acre, how
much of those nutrients are available per square foot? And what
impact does that negligible amount of beer have compared to everything
else that is there? How about the fact that alcohol kills
bacteria? Get a grip.

On Nov 4, 1:10*pm, wrote:
On Nov 4, 11:43*am, z wrote:





On Nov 3, 11:21*am, wrote:

On Nov 3, 10:26*am, "Dioclese" NONE wrote:

Never indicated in any shape, fashion or form that I subscribe to making of
"teas" for application to the lawn. *Just that its there to try. *A
respondent wanted more information, I said want I knew off the top of my
head. *Then, you jump in and make all these negatives, of which you want
demanding evidence of their actual workability. *See my first sentence
here...

This is exactly what you posted:

"After you mulch the leaves, aid the decompostion with a wetting agent
and
something that aids bacteria in breaking down those leaves. *There are
a few
"teas" in combination out there in recipes to put in your hose
sprayer
bottle. "

Now excuse me, but that doesn't sound like "I heard somewhere that
tea, beer, whatever MIGHT work. * Any reasonable reader here would
take that statement as recommending teas as a lawn procedure known by
you to work. *It's sort of like a guy asking what underlayment he
needs for a new tile floor and you responding with "You can use straw
because that's the extent of your limited familiarity and direct
knowledge of the subject. * How useful is that?

I did rent a 2 DVDs from netflix regarding gardening. *Its whole and
entirety was about such "teas". *Did not know that from title of the DVD
prior to renting same. *I did watch both in boredom. *I don't remember the
amounts for dilution. *I do remember this self proclaimed "master gardener"
stating amounts of said product, then in the video showing said "master
gardener" measuring the product in an obviously another amount of said
product. *Sometimes, twice as much as orally stated.

I Googled for "lawn", "beer", and "tea" in same search. *Try it.

Here is the "master gardener" noted above:http://www.dptvmedia.org/home.php?cat=50

In fairness, here's an opposing opinon about the beer thing:http://www.homeabc.net/Garden-Landsc...Landscape.html

Seems to me it would be more prudent economically to incorporate some yeast
prediluted in warm water via hose sprayer, than beer. *That is, if their
premise of the yeast in the beer aiding leaf eating bacteria is real.
--
Dave

You do realize that most yeast in beer dies as the carbs are converted
to alcohol and depleted and the alcohol level rises? * And that most
beer is pasteurized? * Certainly all the common brands that a person
would likely grab when the recipe just says "beer". * So, goodbye
yeast. *And you'd have to question the basic knowledge of these
geniuses recommending crap like this, when they obviously don't even
know what beer is.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i think the assumption would be that the nutrients left *by the yeast,
dead or alive, would be helpful to the bacteria, mold, etc. i'm not
entirely sure, though, that that's helpful; after all, the goal is to
get the compost digested by the bacteria, not to raise healthy
bacteria because they don't have to eat the compost.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And after you take a 6 pack and distribute it across half an acre, how
much of those nutrients are available per square foot? *And what
impact does that negligible amount of beer have compared to everything
else that is there? * *How about the fact that alcohol kills
bacteria? * *Get a grip.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you're probably better off drinking the beer and peeing into the
compost. lots of urea to feed the little beasts.

"Lawn Guy" wrote in message ...

If you did a little research, you'd find that there is widespread
agreement that mulching the clippings and leaving them is
beneficial to the lawn. The clippings decay and provide nutrients.

The nutient value of grass is so poor that nobody uses grass to make
compost.


Is that a fact? Maybe you'd like to educate my compost bin. It thinks otherwise.

"Lawn Guy" wrote in message ...
wrote:

Because in most rural places with folks with lots of
trees and experience, bagging doesn't exist.

And it doesn't apply.

I'm talking about urban properties - not rural.

Here anyone who wants to have their leaves taken away, simply
blows or rakes them into the street. The township comes by
every couple of weeks from Nov thru Dec and vacuums them up.

But even in that case, the leaves are removed. Doesn't matter if it's
by blowing and then vacuuming or by raking and bagging.

If you did a little research, you'd find that there is widespread
agreement that mulching the clippings and leaving them is
beneficial to the lawn. The clippings decay and provide nutrients.

The nutient value of grass is so poor that nobody uses grass to make
compost.

You want a healthy lawn, you use fertilizer. The cut grass from last
season will not nourish your lawn anywhere near what a bag of fertilizer
will do. You want to promote thatch and give a home to bugs, then leave
your clippings on the lawn.

Beneficial to the companies harvesting trees to make those bags,

I highly doubt that paper leaf bags are made from anything other than
recycled paper and cardboard. Not freshly-cut trees. Maybe tree bark.

... I'd say there isn't anything natural or good for the environment
in the whole process.

I don't use paper bags for leaves because you can't pack them without
tearing them. That's why I use plastic garbage bags.

Hmmm, what about on all the streets and roads in a municipality
where there are just trees and no homes? Like in the country?

You don't have curbs and gutters and storm sewers on country roads. You
have paved or soft-shoulders where leaves don't accumulate on the
roads. So it's a non-issue in the country.

In conclusion, I'd like to see some credible reference that agrees
with your premise that mulching lawn grass clippings or mulching a
reasonable amount of leaves in-situ with a mower, is incompatible
with a healthy lawn.

If you already have a thatch buildup (1/2 inch or more) you do NOT want
to leave your cut grass on the lawn. If your grass has certain diseases
(snow mold, powdery mildew, etc) you DO NOT want to leave your cut grass
on the lawn.

If you want a THICK lawn that you don't need to cut every 5 days, then
bag your grass. The alternative being promoted to weed killer is to
regularly overseed your lawn, resulting in a thicker lawn. Again,
leaving the cut grass on the lawn only works if your lawn is relatively
sparse (vs thick) and requires more frequent cutting. The theoretical
BEST that grass cuttings can do when left on the lawn is to provide only
25% of the nutrients required. Water content claims of cut grass
varries wildly from 75% to 90%.

Bagging your grass has been villified in recent years because
municipalities want to desperately keep cut grass out of landfills
because many landfills are reaching capacity. That's why you hear so
much about the benefits of not bagging your grass. They're all
imaginary benefits. Terms like "Grasscycling" are being invented as
part of this propaganda.

If you want a good lawn, you bag your grass, and you deal with the
clippings by doing something other than putting them in your local
municiple landfill.

Many municipalities have yard waste drop-off depots where home owners
can bring various tree and brush cuttings for disposal for no charge.
The depots will grind them up and turn them into a compost or mulch, and
sell it back to the public. What you will find is that they won't
accept cut grass or use cut grass in the mulch, or will charge $1 a bag
and make you dump the grass into it's own dumpster. But why? Why not
take the grass for free? Why keep the grass segregated into it's own
pile? If cut grass is so beneficial and high in nutrients, why
discourage citizens from bringing it to the depots? Why doesn't this
grass get incorporated into the mulch along with tree branches and other
yard waste materials?

Why? Because cut grass is shit and has little to no nutrient value and
is high in carbon. If it's not good enough for municiple compost piles
it's not good enough for your lawn.

Quite the contrary, I've seen plenty of authorities
that say returning either grass clippings or other
organic matter in reasonable amounts is beneficial
to the lawn.

It's all propaganda.

They simply don't want to see the grass occupy valuble space in rapidly
shrinking municiple landfills.

Also, if you have something that supports your claim that
leaf removal is necessary to protect the health of trees
in the yard, I'd like to see that too.

This is one of the worst lawn advise postings I think I've ever seen.

On Nov 3, 9:16*pm, Lawn Guy wrote:
wrote:
Because in most rural places with folks with lots of
trees and experience, bagging doesn't exist. *

And it doesn't apply.

I'm talking about urban properties - not rural.


No, it does apply, because in an urban area, with a lot with few
trees, it's very easy and effective to just use a mulching mower and
grind up the modest amount of leaves on the lawn. I do it. Others
here do it. And contrary to your nonsense, it's not because we're
lazy. It's because it's less work, returns organic matter to the
soil, and is environmentally sound. But go ahead and keep shoving
your leaves in bags if you want. We really don't care. Just don't
go around calling those of us who choose not to lazy or claim that
doing so is incompatible with a healthy lawn.



Here anyone who wants to have their leaves taken away, simply
blows or rakes them into the street. * The township comes by
every couple of weeks from Nov thru Dec and vacuums them up.

But even in that case, the leaves are removed. *Doesn't matter if it's
by blowing and then vacuuming or by raking and bagging.

Well, I would say yes it does. Because for those unfortunate enough
to live somewhere that makes you stuff them in bags, it's an even
bigger pain in the ass, plus a waste of time, money, and resources.




If you did a little research, you'd find that there is widespread
agreement that mulching the clippings and leaving them is
beneficial to the lawn. * The clippings decay and provide nutrients.

The nutient value of grass is so poor that nobody uses grass to make
compost.

You want a healthy lawn, you use fertilizer. *The cut grass from last
season will not nourish your lawn anywhere near what a bag of fertilizer
will do. *You want to promote thatch and give a home to bugs, then leave
your clippings on the lawn.


So says you. No let's see what some qualified and knowledgeable
folks have to say.

From Agri Extension of the Univ of Missouri:

Q What is the "Don't Bag It" lawn care plan?


A This MU Extension educational program involves recycling grass
clippings. Instead of collecting clippings, the "Don't Bag It" plan
encourages people to return them to the lawn.


Q What benefits do grass clippings provide if returned to the lawn?


A Grass clippings returned to the lawn provide up to 25 percent of
your lawn's total fertilizer needs. Clippings contain about 4 percent
nitrogen, 2 percent potassium and 1 percent phosphorus. While
decomposing, they also serve indirectly as a food source for the
bacteria in the soil, which are doing many beneficial things (such as
decomposing thatch) for a healthy turf environment.


From Univ of Virginia, AG Ext:

Valuable Nutrients Lost!
The most unappreciated problem with off-site clipping disposal is that
potentially valuable commodities, plant organic matter and the
nutrients derived from it, are being discarded as a waste material!
When clippings are continually removed from a lawn, natural nutrient
cycling is partially reduced.

Rethinking Clipping Removal
The most prevalent reasons that people give for removing clippings may
reflect misconceptions and habit. Such reasons include:


Bagging may be the accepted practice in the neighborhood.
Clippings can become unsightly when they lay on top of the turf
canopy.
Turf can be smothered due to the inconsistent clipping dispersal of
side discharge rotary mowers.
Some believe clippings enhance turf disease.
Concern over clippings being tracked into a home or swimming pool.
The notion that clippings will accumulate and form a detrimental
thatch layer.



Grasscycling and Thatch Buildup
The idea that grass clippings form a major part of thatch has been
refuted in the literature. Thatch forms when turf roots, stems
(crowns, rhizomes, and stolons), and leaves are sloughed faster than
they can decompose. The negative aspects of thatch layers in excess of
1/2 inch a 1) increased potential for cold, heat or drought-related
injury, 2) more problems with insect pests and fungal diseases, and 3)
additional irrigation required by the turf.


From Ohio Sate Univ:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1189.html

"Don't Bag It-The Lawn Maintenance Plan
The "Don't Bag It" lawn care plan can save the homeowner time, energy,
fertilizers, pesticides, and money, and can reduce the amount of waste
going to our landfills. The principle is simple: return clippings to
your lawn. By leaving your clippings on the lawn and allowing them to
work their way back into soil, you will improve soil health and reduce
pesticide and fertilizer use.

In fact, grass clippings contain valuable nutrients that can generate
up to 25 percent of your lawn's total fertilizer needs. A hundred
pounds of grass clippings can generate and recycle as much as three to
four pounds of nitrogen, one-half to one pound of phosphorus, and two
to three pounds of potassium back to the lawn. These are the three
most important nutrients needed by lawns, and are commonly supplied in
lawn fertilizers. Also, grass clippings do not contribute to thatch
(an organic debris layer between the soil and live grass) since grass
clippings are 75-85 percent water and decompose readily.

Why, then, do many homeowners bag grass clippings? Basically, it is a
personal preference and habit most homeowners have acquired. Proper
lawn care practices will usually eliminate surface clipping debris and
ensure a successful "Don't Bag It" program.

In summary, by composting at home, you can help protect the
environment, save money, and improve your soil at the same time. "




Beneficial to the companies harvesting trees to make those bags,

I highly doubt that paper leaf bags are made from anything other than
recycled paper and cardboard. *Not freshly-cut trees. *Maybe tree bark.

... I'd say there isn't anything natural or good for the environment
in the whole process.

I don't use paper bags for leaves because you can't pack them without
tearing them. *That's why I use plastic garbage bags.

Even worse, using plastics made of oil to stuff full of leaves.
Again, if it makes you happy, go ahead. But don't come around here
giving advice based on ignorance and junk science, then calling others
who use easier methods that make excellent sense, lazy.




Hmmm, what about on all the streets and roads in a municipality
where there are just trees and no homes? * Like in the country?

You don't have curbs and gutters and storm sewers on country roads. *You
have paved or soft-shoulders where leaves don't accumulate on the
roads. *So it's a non-issue in the country.

In conclusion, I'd like to see some credible reference that agrees
with your premise that mulching lawn grass clippings or mulching a
reasonable amount of leaves in-situ with a mower, is incompatible
with a healthy lawn.

If you already have a thatch buildup (1/2 inch or more) you do NOT want
to leave your cut grass on the lawn. *If your grass has certain diseases
(snow mold, powdery mildew, etc) you DO NOT want to leave your cut grass
on the lawn.

Another one of your misinformed opinions is not a credible source.
Normal grass clippings do not create a thatch problem. Here again
from the Univ of Missouri:

Q Do clippings returned to the lawn contribute to thatch problems?


A Thatch is a layer of undecomposed or partially decomposed grass
roots, stems, crowns, runners and lower shoots that accumulate between
the soil surface and actively growing turf. Grass clippings contain 80
to 85 percent water and decompose much more quickly than other grass
plant parts. Research at MU and other universitites indicates that
clippings do not contribute to thatch buildup on any cool- or warm-
season grasses, including zoysiagrass





If you want a THICK lawn that you don't need to cut every 5 days, then
bag your grass.

More nonsense. I have a dense tall fescue/blue grass turf and cut it
once a week. Once again, I'd like to see a credible reference that
using a mulching mower is incompatible with a thick, healthy lawn.



*The alternative being promoted to weed killer is to
regularly overseed your lawn, resulting in a thicker lawn.

More wasted time and money. You overseed a lawn IF it needs it
because the grass has thinned out for some reason.


*Again,
leaving the cut grass on the lawn only works if your lawn is relatively
sparse (vs thick) and requires more frequent cutting.

Nonsense as demonstrated by my years of actual experience maintaining
my own lawn. I mulch, cut it once a week, and it's DENSE, as least
as dense as you.



*The theoretical
BEST that grass cuttings can do when left on the lawn is to provide only
25% of the nutrients required. *Water content claims of cut grass
varries wildly from 75% to 90%.

Well, Duh? First you claim that grass clippings are worthless. Now
it's that they can provide 25% of the nutrients required and are 90%
water. Hmmm, let's think about this. What's better? Wasting
time bagging, emptying bags, dealing with the clippings, and buying
extra fertilizer? Or just leaving the mulched clippings so they
provide 25% of the fertilizer? And which wastes less resources and
is better for the environment?



Bagging your grass has been villified in recent years because
municipalities want to desperately keep cut grass out of landfills
because many landfills are reaching capacity. *That's why you hear so
much about the benefits of not bagging your grass. *They're all
imaginary benefits. *Terms like "Grasscycling" are being invented as
part of this propaganda.

So far, all the propaganda, without any credible references, is coming
from you.



If you want a good lawn, you bag your grass, and you deal with the
clippings by doing something other than putting them in your local
municiple landfill. *

I've left clippings for 13 years and have the nicest lawn in the
neighborhood.



Many municipalities have yard waste drop-off depots where home owners
can bring various tree and brush cuttings for disposal for no charge.
The depots will grind them up and turn them into a compost or mulch, and
sell it back to the public. *What you will find is that they won't
accept cut grass or use cut grass in the mulch, or will charge $1 a bag
and make you dump the grass into it's own dumpster. *But why? *Why not
take the grass for free? *Why keep the grass segregated into it's own
pile? *If cut grass is so beneficial and high in nutrients, why
discourage citizens from bringing it to the depots? *Why doesn't this
grass get incorporated into the mulch along with tree branches and other
yard waste materials? *

Whether it's the ideal material for a great general purpose mulch for
a municipality presented with abundant other options, isn't the
issue. There are some negative qualities specific to clippings that
have nothing to do with it's nutrient value that make it less
desirable to use for compost. And that is that lawn clippings are
more likely to contain herbicides, pesticides, etc, that alternatives,
like leaves. The issue is whether it's a sound practice to leave
clippings on a lawn. And the overwhelming consensus from
authorities, is YES.




Why? *Because cut grass is shit and has little to no nutrient value and
is high in carbon. *If it's not good enough for municiple compost piles
it's not good enough for your lawn.

Now we've gone from clippings can provide 25% of a lawns fertilizer
requirements, back to it has little to no nutrient value. Do you
even read what you post?

I was gonna let it go, but just to show that you don't have a clue,
let's look at your statement that clippings are high in carbon.
That's easily refuted. From Ohio State Univ here's a list of some
compost materials and there carbon content:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1189.html

Table 1. Carbon:Nitrogen Ratio

Food wastes 15:1
Sawdust, wood, paper 400:1
Straw 80:1
Grass clippings 15:1
Leaves 50:1
Fruit wastes 35:1
Rotted manures 20:1
Cornstalks 60:1
Alfalfa hay 12:1

At 15, clippings are clearly near the bottom of the list. Highest on
the list though at a whopping 400, are paper bags, which most people
use to bag leaves.






Quite the contrary, I've seen plenty of authorities
that say returning either grass clippings or other
organic matter in reasonable amounts is beneficial
to the lawn.

It's all propaganda.

They simply don't want to see the grass occupy valuble space in rapidly
shrinking municiple landfills.

Sure, reducing the need to haul clippings and the space they take is a
benefit. But how does that make all the other benefits of clippings
cited by an overwhelming number of credible authorities into
propaganda?



Also, if you have something that supports your claim that
leaf removal is necessary to protect the health of trees
in the yard, I'd like to see that too.

-----------------http://imfc.cfl.scf.rncan.gc.ca/maladie-disease-eng.asp?geID=29

Maple leaf spot

The fungus creates small brown spots on the leaves and, in severe
infections, when most of the foliage is affected, the leaves may be shed
prematurely. Growing leaves are infected in the spring and initially
develop yellowish-green spots. The leaves eventually die and turn a
brownish colour. Black fruiting bodies of the fungus develop in the
infected spots around the end of autumn. The spores produced by these
fruiting bodies over winter in the leaf litter and cause new infections
the following spring.

As with many foliar fungal diseases, cool, wet spring weather greatly
favours the spread of the disease. To protect ornamental trees, the
leaves of affected trees should be carefully collected and destroyed by
burning or composting.
-------------------

That is just one example of a tree disease that is promoted and
propagated year-after-year by not raking, bagging or otherwise removing
leaf litter in the fall.

It doesn't say what you claim, which is that in general leaf removal
is necessary for healthy trees and that if you in situ mulch them it
will cause problems. It says if you have this particular disease,
then you should remove the leaves. It's like the Dr. telling you if
you have a sprained ankle, to keep it immobile. Do you think that
translates into being immobile is a good and necessary practice in
general?





See also

http://georgegosselin.com/nstsl/program_description.htm

------------------
... plant disease pathogens form three groups: *fungi, bacteria, and
viruses. *Of the three the majority are fungi. *These pathogens exist
virtually everywhere, but those causing plant diseases are found
primarily in the soil and plant debris such as mulch and leaf litter.
You can help to reduce diseases in you landscape by simply removing old
mulch. leaf litter, etc at the end of the season (mid November -
December) and leaving the soil naked over the winter months.
------------------

Cool, so now we're supposed to remove mulch over the winter? Now
that's pretty laughable. You do that too? I don't know anyone who
has ever done that and by observation, I've never seen it done. All
the landscape beds around here are mulched year round. And also the
mulch helps protect plants over any extreme cold temps.

And I'd point out that this is just some random guy's opinion, with
an amateur website. Why would you think some random hack has any
qualifications to give advice?

Bob F wrote:

This is one of the worst lawn advise postings I think I've ever seen.

Then why did you full-quote most of it?

And why did you not quote the last part pertaining to tree diseases
propagating from leaf litter? Are you also claiming that that was
innacurate, false or fabricated information?

It's a fact that municipal gov'ts do not want to see cut grass taking up
valuble space in landfills so they invent new propaganda that leaving
clippings on the lawn is better for your lawn.

It's a fact that you will need to mow more frequently if you don't bag
your grass.

It's a fact that you will need to pay more attention to thatch and that
grass cuttings will promote thatch buildup if you don't bag your grass.

It's a fact that grass clippings WILL NOT provide most of the nutrients
required by a healthy lawn, and at best will provide only 25% of the
required nutrients and that commercial fertilizer applications will be
necessary anyways.

It's a fact that the thicker the lawn, the more problematic it is to
leave the grass clippings on the lawn. This becomes important as people
resort to over-seeding as a method of weed control vs using herbicides.

trader4 wrote:

Lawn Guy wrote:
trad... wrote:
Because in most rural places with folks with lots of
trees and experience, bagging doesn't exist.

And it doesn't apply.

I'm talking about urban properties - not rural.

No, it does apply, because in an urban area, with a lot with few
trees, it's very easy and effective to just use a mulching mower and
grind up the modest amount of leaves on the lawn. I do it. Others
here do it. And contrary to your nonsense, it's not because we're
lazy. It's because it's less work, returns organic matter to the
soil, and is environmentally sound. But go ahead and keep shoving
your leaves in bags if you want. We really don't care. Just don't
go around calling those of us who choose not to lazy or claim that
doing so is incompatible with a healthy lawn.


trader4, actually gave good advice on the mulching mower.
however it is important to note how this method is not going
to work for the quadruple chin porker beast who is only going
to mow once a month.

a good high quality mulching mower such as the Snapper 21 inch
walk behind is going to be the best lawn care investment any
person living on a postage stamp size lot could ever make for
the over all health of their lawn.

mowing with a mulching mower once a week and sometimes twice a week
will create a great food supply for the lawn. the increased frequency
of cutting produces smaller clippings. during the fall of the year
when leaves are being mulched the increased frequency of cutting
allows for a better mulching of the leaves.

there are only two ways to have a great lawn. one is to actually
love and enjoy the performing and doing of the various procedures
required. educating ones self by seeking correct information such
as what is available from various universities and agricultural
extension services so as to get the best return from your investment
of time and money will also go a long way towards being able to produce
for yourself your overall desired outcome.

the other method is to contract the service of a lawn care service
who has already established a reputation for being able to deliver
an overall quality product.