"Gregor" wrote

shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and
pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes?

Great insight. I found my American cast axe in a locally owned
hardware store, not part of a chain.

I remember the days when many Americans made their
own damn axes because there wasn't a store for ninety
miles from their homestead. Everyone thought the next
generation was going to hellfire and damnation because
they couldn't make their own tools. Turns out, they made
more valuable things[1] instead. This exact same scenario
is going play out with computers, but never mind. The
old fogeys would rather remain in the years gone by.


1. A service economy does have it's rickity underpinnings.
I'm trying hard to not make a tsunami reference.

--Ted

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:

No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice
to watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame
all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals
for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame
the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money
from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study
market-based solutions to public policy issues.

Do you also blame the customer who looks for the lowest price?

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote:

No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to
watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all
the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less
money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the
politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from
these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study
market-based solutions to public policy issues.


Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they
still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life
than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's
all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do.

My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to
emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was
already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany?

USENET READER wrote:


C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman
brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a
democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the
factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).



Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized.


And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is
still owned by those who run the government.

Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a
while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to
know this.




Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back
the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't
work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange
tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies
compete with that?



They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they
can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as
long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.


It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And
when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy,
they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault,
but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place.

The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American consumers
wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for quality.
Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the scene,
people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks cheaper
than someone like Delta.


And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires
Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can.

Yes, you do.

If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut
through or climbed over.

No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help
someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that
the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so
many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap
labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something
about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools
are going to be made in the USA?



There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you
willing to pay a higher price to buy them?


Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American
made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder
to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The
Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to
continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you
soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's
hoes break after one use, etc.



That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.


If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the
American products were overpriced junk.




The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction
sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians
and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly
older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African
American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak
Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor
- who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on
his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a
white guy.



That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers
I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same
about some of the "American" crews I've seen.


They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or
working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable
lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers.

That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have the
said line marked, than the workers.

Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because
the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe
workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't
work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work
careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA,
state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good
quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting
underbid by companies that hire illegals.

Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or
are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might
either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get
deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested
in tools than absolutely necessary?



They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try
turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's
can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown,
and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for,
they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they
realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and
needs to be repurchased more often.
I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored in
to some extent, rather than by country of origin.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"USENET READER" wrote in message
link.net...



It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.

Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.

If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't
it a shame you don't run the country?

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

C G wrote:


That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.


If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the
American products were overpriced junk.

[ just a quickie observation: ]

Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

C G wrote:



That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.


If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the
American products were overpriced junk.


[ just a quickie observation: ]

Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.
It started way before the "past few years". If we, the consumers, had
not started down the cheap tool path the businesses such as Harbor
Freight, Grizzly, etc would not have survived. Since we did start down
that path, other businesses decided they needed to follow that model.

USENET READER wrote:


C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:
...
Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back
the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't
work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange
tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies
compete with that?

They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they
can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as
long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.

It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. ...

Really? So then why have rates of ownership of items such as cars, TVs,
other consumer electronics, major appliances, and (most likely) power tools
gone *up*? It's not that people are forced to 'settle' for cheaper goods
than they were buying before - it's that whole new classes of people are
now empowered to *be* buyers for things such as dishwashers and jig saws.
Those people are often going to buy their first lathe from Harbor Freight,
just as they will buy their first DVD player from Wal-Mart.

...
If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut
through or climbed over. ...

Were you going somewhere with this sentence? It seems to end abruptly.

... My friends work hard, work smart, work
careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA,
state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good
quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting
underbid by companies that hire illegals.

Maybe if their own government wasn't robbing them blind they could compete
with free labor.

...
The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's
can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown,
and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for,
they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they
realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and
needs to be repurchased more often.

God, what bellyaching! *Cheap* power tools now are better than the
*expensive* power tools of a generation ago - and anyone can easily enough
order power tools at whatever quality level he chooses to afford. And why
would someone want to spend a bunch more for a tool like a drill that will
last 10 years, when in five years the newer drills will probably be vastly
improved and he'll want one of those anyway?

--
Susan Hogarth
"We dissent, secondly, because the powers vested in Congress by this
constitution, must necessarily annihilate and absorb the legislative,
executive, and judicial powers of the several states, and produce from
their ruins one consolidated government, which from the nature of things
will be an iron handed despotism, as nothing short of the supremacy of
despotic sway could connect and govern these United States under one
government."
- Minority opinion on the ratification of US Constitution

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:


Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.

Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior
Chinese model is available?

--
Susan Hogarth
"We dissent, secondly, because the powers vested in Congress by this
constitution, must necessarily annihilate and absorb the legislative,
executive, and judicial powers of the several states, and produce from
their ruins one consolidated government, which from the nature of things
will be an iron handed despotism, as nothing short of the supremacy of
despotic sway could connect and govern these United States under one
government."
- Minority opinion on the ratification of US Constitution

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:39 +0000, Susan Hogarth wrote:

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:


Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the
idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring
buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with
something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el
cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only
one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling
at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the
only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it.

Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior
Chinese model is available?

In fear of agreeing with the Dweezil, there are no longer any options in
the bicycle tire market. I have a friend that worked at a bike shop
and he states that there are no longer any manufactures of bicycle
tires in the us, and all the manufacturing equiptment was sold. The US no
longer have the ablity to manufacture bicycle tires and we exported the
technology to do so.

--
Yard Works Gardening Co.
http://www.ywgc.com

"Rodney Rash" wrote
Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how
I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my
friend. Smart.
5 years ago I was a factory slob.

Not smart enough to hire an accountant. Go figure.

On 1/15/2005 1:40 PM US(ET), Susan Hogarth took fingers to keys, and
typed the following:

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:



Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.



Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior
Chinese model is available?



Thanks for nothing! I was going to write down some items from my Chinese
restaurant menu and all of a sudden, I wanted Chinese food. So did
everyone else in the family. It cost me a trip to the restaurant in
below freezing weather and $51.

--
Bill

Timothy wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote:


No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to
watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all
the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less
money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the
politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from
these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study
market-based solutions to public policy issues.



Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they
still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life
than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's
all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do.

Sorry - it does matter how people got here - legal is better. When you
come here illegally, not only are you breaking the law, but you set
yourself up for getting porly treated in the workplace and elsewhere,
and who are you gonna go to to complain to, without risking getting
tossed out on your ass (as you should be).

You presume too much about me when it comes to politics, I'm a blue dog
Democrat.I grew up in the Ohio Valley, watching my Dad work 16 hours a day
at Weirton Steel, standing with him on the picket lines, collecting cans
so we could eat. STFU! You have no high ground here Sir. I've remember
when it was Japan that was dumping steel on the global market and we just
about starved. Sucks to have to eat goverment cheese.

Yes I am sure it does suck to do that - and what are you doing to take
your government back from the people in power who set the country up for
being outsourced?

All your posts' are doing,(besides one huge F'ing troll for attention) is
blaming everyone around you for the problems of the American economy. You
sure was thinking about buying American when you bought your VW, now
wern't ya. Are you protesting the union breaking that's going on? Are you
shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and
pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes?

Actually the VW is made in Mexico and I didn't buy it - someone owed me
money for work done and I got the car instead of the cash.

Yes I am protesting the breakups of unions. I am shopping locally and
not buying stuff at big box stores. I am bitching about the crap Chinese
tools sold everywhere - even at mom and pop stores.

I too live someplace with a large "immigrant" population. Be it mexican or
korean or russian, going to the grocery store is like going to a different
country due to all the different languages floating in the air. All these
people are doing is to look for a better life. And you damn well get used
to it. You sure as hell not going to do the jobs that these people due for
the wage that they get. The American workers are some of the highest paid
workers in the world, be ready for your pay cut and you can thank the new
corporate modle for that.

I got no problem with people coming here for a better life - it's just
that them coming here for a better life can sometimes have the effect of
lowering the living standards of those of use who were born here or
who came here legally. When you have a boat, you can't have everyone
come to one side otherwise the boat will capsize - that is the effect of
having too many people come here illegally.

Actually - these people do jobs that were done years ago by Americans -
janitorial work, construction work, etc. The business owners want to
hold down costs - or just put more money into their own pockets - by
hiring illegals because they will work cheaper. So are you saying that
we should just open up the borders to anyone who wants to come here and
suffer the consequences of lower wages overall and less workplace health
and safety on the job, or should we cut off the flow of the illegals,
throw out the illegals who are here, and that would drive up the wages?
It's simply supply and demand - you decrease the supply of illegal
workers, and the demand for legal workers goes up as does their pay.
They get paid more, they spend more and their money can be spent here on
American made products because the American worker will have more money
to spend and when you have that increased income - you can afford to buy
better goods.

Remember, even in the worst of times, your standard of living is still far
and above 4 billion other people in this world ... and always will be.
Quit yer bitchin' and start buying American, start by selling your
VW....lol

What's the point of selling my VW - someone else would buy it who would
not be buying American. What would be the point of that? Actually in
my driveway I have three American cars - two GMs and a Ford. I work on
them myself. I drive the VQ simply to have a manual transmission car
that the other people in my family can't drive and screw it up. Are
there any fuel efficient American made cars that get good milage? What
do you drive?

Tom Disque wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy
wrote:


On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote:


No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to
watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all
the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less
money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the
politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from
these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study
market-based solutions to public policy issues.


Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they
still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life
than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's
all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do.


My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to
emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was
already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany?

Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was
from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German
at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages?

Tom Disque wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:


No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice
to watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame
all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals
for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame
the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money

from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study

market-based solutions to public policy issues.


Do you also blame the customer who looks for the lowest price?

It depends on circumstances - who they are and what they are buying?
Lower prices do not always save someone money in the long run. Al
things are not equal. If you buy a lower price good that is a piece of
crap that falls apart and you have to go back and buy another, then you
haven't saved money have you? Had you purchased the higher-priced
quality good, you would still be using it now. You wouldn't have had to
make two trips to the store, burned the gas, etc - to buy the item twice.

When you buy crap at Wal Mart, you end up putting more money into the
pockets of a large corporation that gets tax breaks that aren't given to
smaller businesses that probably take better care of their employees.
Even the Wal Mart distribution center in Henderson gets tax breaks that
were never given to Roses and Roses was home based in Henderson. The
lower prices you pay at Wal Mart and other big box stores comes at the
price of you having to pay higher and higher taxes to make up for what
Wal Mart doesn't pay in taxes as well as the lack of benefits that
causes Wal Mart employees to go to hospital emergency rooms that you end
up having to pay for.

Then there is the issue of your spending the money on the cheaper made
item - even if the quality is the same as a more expensive good. Your
purchases of those goods will eventually lead to more Americans losing
their jobs, and you having to pay higher taxes to make up for what they
don't pay because they aren't working, or are underemployed.

Sometimes paying more for a product from a Mom and Pop store is cheaper
in the long run than paying a lower price with respect to what you have
to make up for in higher taxes.