Oscar_Lives wrote:

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...


It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.


Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.

Who do you think makes the greedy consumers want all that stuff - the
big companies who advertise them and also make them overseas.



And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires
Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If
the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers
for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed
the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed
over.


Stupid ****. We aren't talking about illegal aliens. We are talking about
damn hard working immigrants doing jobs that fat lazy americans who are used
to living on the dole won't do.

Actually stupiid **** - we are talking about illegal alliens. The damn
hard working immigrants you are referring to are mostly illegals. And
they all drive wages down. If they weren't here, then the bosses would
be forced to offer higher wages to legal workers who wouldn't need to be
on the dole. Nobody on the dole wants to be on the dole - but then
again being on the dole can sometimes pay more than what you make by
working at those slave labor wages that the illegas get paid.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something
about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are
going to be made in the USA?


There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you
willing to pay a higher price to buy them?

Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made
tools.



Yeah, because no-skilled union american workers think they have to be paid
$25 an hour to manufacture these tools.

No - because workers who live in a country that isn't a democracy have
no rights to a decent lliving wage, no right to workplace health and
safety protection and no environmenta protections. Companies locate in
those countries because they can get away with stuff that is illegal
here in the USA. Are you saying that in addition to the lower wages,
you would tolerate increased pollution, and increased risks to your
health and safety on the job? What if, just to keep your job, you had
to accept increased dangers on the workplace just to remain competitive
- and you lost eyes and limbs on the job - it that worth keeping your job?



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to
find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made
crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued
professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in
oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break
after one use, etc.


That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.

If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've
seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some
of the "American" crews I've seen.

They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or
working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable
lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers.
Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the
bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace
practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way
back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do
good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal
taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made
tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that
hire illegals.


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!





Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant
construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they
spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get
them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any
time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than
absolutely necessary?


They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn
this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the
cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can
buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can
sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not
want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they
can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be
repurchased more often.


American consumers are too stupid, lazy, and looking for instant
gratification that they think they are owed by the government. They won't
work hard and save and take care of what they have. They want more more
more disposable shit and they want the government or the corporation or "the
man" to give it to them because they think they "deserve it".

No actually dumb **** - American workers are smart, the most productive
in the world, and willing to work hard and save for the future. But you
can't save for the future if you don't have a job that pays enough for
you to live on now! Actually - I can't think of anyone who wants to
work hard for shit that will fall apart on them, but with greedy
investors expecting a 40% return on their investment, some greedy
manager will find a way to cut corners, move a factory overseas -
whatever it takes to give the "ownership class" what they want at the
expense of working people.

Why do you dumb ****s endorse the kind of class warfare that makes
investment rewarded more than hard work? Are you wone of those pukes
who inherited all their wealth?

Tom Disque wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote:


"USENET READER" wrote in message
hlink.net...

It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when
a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go
with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly
with big business for going overseas in the first place.

Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every
luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game
boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self
control and no brains are to blame for this mess.


If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't
it a shame you don't run the country?


No actually if we lived in a real democracy instead of a fascist state
run by corporations, we could elect leaders who would put the interests
of the majority of Americans ahead of that 1/2 of 1% of rich pukes that
control close to 40% of the real wealth.

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman
brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a
democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the
factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).




Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized.



And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is
still owned by those who run the government.


Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a
while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to
know this.

No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the
private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these
factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with
their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in
shape, the end result isn't really different?




Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even
though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can
bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to
exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American
companies compete with that?




They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business,
but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.



It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And
when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy,
they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's
fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first
place.


The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American consumers
wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for quality.
Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the scene,
people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks cheaper
than someone like Delta.

Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting paid
enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist Henry
Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more, realizing
that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars he was
making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care payments
on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc - they can't
afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's needs. They can do
that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which some of them qualify
for even if they work fulll time) and if they put off regular health
care and use the emergency room for chronic health care needs.


And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as
you can.


Yes, you do.

WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust
the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing
illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?

If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be
cut through or climbed over.


No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help
someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that
the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so
many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap
labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any
more tools are going to be made in the USA?




There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you
willing to pay a higher price to buy them?



Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American
made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The
Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to
continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you
soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's
hoes break after one use, etc.




That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.



If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.


It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the
American products were overpriced junk.

Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file
worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what the
bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build the
crap because there wasn't anything else available?

Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away - you
got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up in
quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other cheaper
countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't compete on
the price of the goods and also on the return on investments. So don't
go blaming the consumers only - greedy investors who want 40% return on
investments are to blame too!




The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction
sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians
and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly
older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African
American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak
Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This
supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around
talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch
- is a white guy.




That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers
I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same
about some of the "American" crews I've seen.



They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or
working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable
lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers.


That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have the
said line marked, than the workers.

You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had
to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them
marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to
start a project - you work without.

On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where the
lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not break the
lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and more carefully,
and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want to. They just don't
give a crap if the family in the nice big house has cable or not.

Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because
the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe
workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't
work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work
careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment
FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy
good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep
getting underbid by companies that hire illegals.


Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might
get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money
invested in tools than absolutely necessary?




They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try
turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's
can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown,
and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for,
they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they
realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart
and needs to be repurchased more often.

I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored in
to some extent, rather than by country of origin.

Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then again
- some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not at a
regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting off
their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the variety
of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.

TVs, VCRs, any sort of stereo stuff other than the very high end techie
stuff. You need a phone - they are only made in China. They suck, they
have poor sound quality, the plastic is cheap, the batteries don't hold
a charge that long - you want me to go on?

I am sure that if it wasn't for the fact that all these greedy MBAs
wanting to get big compensation packages if they can get 40% return for
their stockholders (when they aren't stealing from their stockholders),
and that the Chinese are artificially holding down the value of the yuan
and engaging in all sorts of unfair trade practices (dumping,
intellectual property crimes, etc.), American companies could invest in
employee training, and in machinery and computers to increase
productivity. Then we could have a variety of products that are higher
quality that are made in America that Americans could purchase with
pride and also know that they are helping to keep their economy going.

Last month - there was a $60 billion trade deficit - that is money that
isn't coming back to this country to create jobs. It's being invested
over in China to build more plants to take more jobs away. It's being
used to buy technology to send chinese rockets into space (and
eventually with nuclear warheads), and to buy arms to eventually invade
Taiwan. It's like investing in Germany before WWII - eventually they
are gonna come after us and we are gonna have to fight them - especially
with their excess male population!

Susan Hogarth wrote:

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:


Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.


Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior
Chinese model is available?

Susan Hogarth wrote:

USENET READER wrote:


C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:
...

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back
the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't
work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange
tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies
compete with that?


They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they
can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as
long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.

It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so
they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. ...


Really? So then why have rates of ownership of items such as cars, TVs,
other consumer electronics, major appliances, and (most likely) power tools
gone *up*? It's not that people are forced to 'settle' for cheaper goods
than they were buying before - it's that whole new classes of people are
now empowered to *be* buyers for things such as dishwashers and jig saws.
Those people are often going to buy their first lathe from Harbor Freight,
just as they will buy their first DVD player from Wal-Mart.

They buy the stuff on credit - which is too easy to get and then when
you lose your job you can't pay the debt, so you used to be able to
declare bankruptcy, but the banks bought off Bush so that it was harder
to go bankrupt.


...
If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut
through or climbed over. ...


Were you going somewhere with this sentence? It seems to end abruptly.

That the people who bought and paid for the GOP (mostly) and some token
Democrats don't want to slow down the influx of cheap illegal immigrant
labor, because it holds down the labor costs. The downside to that is
increasing the flow of illegal drugs and potential for terrorist
infintration over the boarder.


... My friends work hard, work smart, work
careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA,
state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good
quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting
underbid by companies that hire illegals.


Maybe if their own government wasn't robbing them blind they could compete
with free labor.

Taxes are the cost of living in a free society. And they are getting
robbed blind because the rich pukes are getting their taxes lowered to
the point that they won't end up paying their fair share.
...
The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's
can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown,
and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for,
they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they
realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and
needs to be repurchased more often.


God, what bellyaching! *Cheap* power tools now are better than the
*expensive* power tools of a generation ago - and anyone can easily enough
order power tools at whatever quality level he chooses to afford. And why
would someone want to spend a bunch more for a tool like a drill that will
last 10 years, when in five years the newer drills will probably be vastly
improved and he'll want one of those anyway?

How are the tools of today better than the tools of yesterday? It's not
llke you need a computer controlled drill. You can't go into many
stores and find good power tools, or even hand tools made in American
anymore. And I don't want to have to order stuff - with identity theft
I would rather go and pay cash for something thank risk my info going
out over the net.

I have a Sears Craftsman drill made in America over 25 years ago. I love
it and I work with it all the time. I paid a lot of money for it when I
bought it in college, and today's cheap drills cost the same but suck in
terms of quality. They feel cheap and they overheat, sound like the
motor is burning out, the blades and bits made overseas burn out or
break quicker than ones made years ago.

Today's wooden axe handles suck, today's picks bend if you strike them
the wrong way against the rocks you are trying to break, today's mason's
hoes break when you mix too stiff a batch of mortan, etc. Today's cheap
tools are not better than

Besides - I rather like buying something in person and making sure it
works before I take it home - whether with a car, a drill, a computer, etc.

Rodney Rash wrote:
USENET READER wrote:



Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman
brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a
democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the
factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even
though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can
bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to
exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American
companies compete with that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any
more tools are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The
Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to
continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you
soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's
hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction
sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians
and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly
older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African
American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak
Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This
supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around
talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch
- is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might
get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money
invested in tools than absolutely necessary?






Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!



I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and
hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to
the destruction of the middle class.



Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how
I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my
friend. Smart.
5 years ago I was a factory slob.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.


Right - why are you on USENET when you should be out forclosing on
widows and orphans? You bought fareast stock - know what that makes you?

Here's a hint.....

Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.

When comes the revolution - which side of the gun barrel are you gonna
be on? Chances are - when the masses come looking for you, your $7/hour
rent a cop will desert his post and leave you to stew in your own juices.

Oscar_Lives wrote:
"Rodney Rash" wrote in message
news:3yEFd.4580$OF5.1806@attbi_s52...

USENET READER wrote:


Rodney Rash wrote:


USENET READER wrote:


I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman
brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy
I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should
call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the
state and staffed with slave labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the
tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So
other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that
does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with
that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something
about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools
are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder
to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The
Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to
continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you
soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's
hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction
sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and
who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older
white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) -
everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a
bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed
out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking
at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant
construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they
spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get
them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any
time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than
absolutely necessary?





Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!


I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour
and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the
destruction of the middle class.



You don't love America. I'll bet you are on public assistance or are a fag
with an agenda against everything that this country was founded upon and you
are mad at God for making you queer.

Actualy I love America. But it is interesting how you ****ing fascist
assholes proclaim your love for America yet you hate everyone who
disagrees with you who has the balls to use their First Ammendment
rights of free speech.

And as far as being a fag - socioogists have found that white men who
are very homophobic (like you) tend to have the greatest tendencies
towards latent homosexuality. In other words, you tend to hate most the
people you secretly want to emulate. Aren't you glad the US Supreme
Court decriminalized consensual sodomy?

JA wrote:
"Rodney Rash" wrote

Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how
I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my
friend. Smart.
5 years ago I was a factory slob.


Not smart enough to hire an accountant. Go figure.

yep - he sounded like a Dittohead to me too!

USENET READER wrote:


C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan
(a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the
factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).





Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.




And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is
still owned by those who run the government.



Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a
while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to
know this.


No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the
private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these
factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with
their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in
shape, the end result isn't really different?

Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.






Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even
though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can
bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to
exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American
companies compete with that?





They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business,
but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.




It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation,
so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice.
And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to
buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's
fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first
place.



The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for
quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the
scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks
cheaper than someone like Delta.


Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting paid
enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist Henry
Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more, realizing
that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars he was
making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care payments
on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc - they can't
afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's needs. They can do
that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which some of them qualify
for even if they work fulll time) and if they put off regular health
care and use the emergency room for chronic health care needs.

I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap import
over better quality.




And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as
you can.



Yes, you do.


WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust
the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing
illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?

No argument from me.



If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be
cut through or climbed over.



No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help
someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that
the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so
many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap
labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any
more tools are going to be made in the USA?





There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are
you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?




Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American
made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless
you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement,
mason's hoes break after one use, etc.





That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.




If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.



It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the
American products were overpriced junk.


Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file
worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what the
bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build the
crap because there wasn't anything else available?

Some of it was the workers, some was the management.


Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away - you
got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up in
quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other cheaper
countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't compete on
the price of the goods and also on the return on investments. So don't
go blaming the consumers only - greedy investors who want 40% return on
investments are to blame too!

I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame than
business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame investors and
business only.






The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.





That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers
I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same
about some of the "American" crews I've seen.




They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done,
or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and
cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard
workers.



That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have
the said line marked, than the workers.


You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had
to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them
marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to
start a project - you work without.

I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from them.
And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute before
calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then call weeks
ahead. A good contractor understands these things and schedules
appropriately.


On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where the
lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not break the
lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and more carefully,
and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want to. They just don't
give a crap if the family in the nice big house has cable or not.

It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done sloppy,
it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that the crews
will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If they're told to
be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire illegals are most
likely looking for fast, not careful.



Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either
because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or
use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because
they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work
smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there
self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their
insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they
can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals.



Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might
get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money
invested in tools than absolutely necessary?





They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try
turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's
can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay
Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made
product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up
in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling
crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often.


I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored
in to some extent, rather than by country of origin.


Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then again
- some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not at a
regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting off
their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the variety
of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.

Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:38:15 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy
wrote:


On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote:


No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports.

And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this
issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to
watch and learn and stick it!

Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all
the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less
money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the
politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from
these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study
market-based solutions to public policy issues.


Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they
still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life
than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's
all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do.


My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to
emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was
already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany?

Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was
from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German
at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages?

I don't know. The few remaining scraps from his diary are written in
German. There is a Chateau D'Isque in Alsace-Lorraine, however. It
seems they got chased out of France into Germany in the 1200s by the
peasants. I dunno if there is any connection between them and my
great-great grandfather.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:
[snip]

And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!
[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.

USENET READER wrote:

Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan
(a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China
(perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the
factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies
after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra
electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you
need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended
warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even
though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can
bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to
exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American
companies compete with that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any
more tools are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless
you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement,
mason's hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might
get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money
invested in tools than absolutely necessary?







Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!




I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and
hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead
to the destruction of the middle class.




Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know
how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my
friend. Smart.
5 years ago I was a factory slob.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.



Right - why are you on USENET when you should be out forclosing on
widows and orphans? You bought fareast stock - know what that makes you?

Here's a hint.....

Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.

When comes the revolution - which side of the gun barrel are you gonna
be on? Chances are - when the masses come looking for you, your $7/hour
rent a cop will desert his post and leave you to stew in your own juices.


Ah, the patriotism is touching but you know what? The US of A is toast.
Has been for 25 years. Why do you think the jobs are going overseas? Can
you say, "One world government"? And who says I'm from the US of A?

USENET READER wrote:

Oscar_Lives wrote:

"Rodney Rash" wrote in message
news:3yEFd.4580$OF5.1806@attbi_s52...

USENET READER wrote:


Rodney Rash wrote:


USENET READER wrote:


I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red
China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where
the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an
extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them -
even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you
can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the
older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always
gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal.
How can American companies compete with that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they
might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more
money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?






Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!



I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and
hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead
to the destruction of the middle class.




You don't love America. I'll bet you are on public assistance or are
a fag with an agenda against everything that this country was founded
upon and you are mad at God for making you queer.


Actualy I love America. But it is interesting how you ****ing fascist
assholes proclaim your love for America yet you hate everyone who
disagrees with you who has the balls to use their First Ammendment
rights of free speech.

And we'll get to those, so called first amendment rights as soon as the
right wing court is seated.
Long live King George II W.
And I pray you are a Christian.

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red
China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where
the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).






Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.





And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is
still owned by those who run the government.




Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a
while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to
know this.



No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the
private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these
factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but
with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has
changed in shape, the end result isn't really different?


Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.

Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed
to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock?
that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign
investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party
bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism.
They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors
hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them?






Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an
extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them -
even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you
can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the
older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always
gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal.
How can American companies compete with that?






They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business,
but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive.





It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation,
so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice.
And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to
buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's
everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in
the first place.




The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for
quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the
scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks
cheaper than someone like Delta.



Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars
he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care
payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc -
they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's
needs. They can do that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which
some of them qualify for even if they work fulll time) and if they put
off regular health care and use the emergency room for chronic health
care needs.


I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap import
over better quality.




And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as
you can.




Yes, you do.



WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust
the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing
illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?


No argument from me.



If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be
cut through or climbed over.




No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help
someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off
that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and
that so many people look the other way so they can take advantage of
the cheap labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?






There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are
you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?





Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.






That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.





If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.




It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases,
the American products were overpriced junk.



Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file
worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what
the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build
the crap because there wasn't anything else available?


Some of it was the workers, some was the management.

Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap and
then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of the most
productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets their heads
out of their asses!


Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away -
you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up
in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other
cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't
compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on
investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy
investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too!


I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame than
business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame investors and
business only.

Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft for
years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who has not
gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take less money,
from having to make the difficult choice to buy some cheaper goods in
order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs, etc. After all - the
cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the consumer to buy had the
business owners not made them first.




The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.






That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican
laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say
the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen.





They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done,
or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and
cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard
workers.




That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have
the said line marked, than the workers.



You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had
to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them
marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to
start a project - you work without.


I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from them.
And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute before
calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then call weeks
ahead. A good contractor understands these things and schedules
appropriately.

You don't know the situation and it is nothing like you say it is.


On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where
the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not
break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and
more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want
to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house
has cable or not.


It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done sloppy,
it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that the crews
will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If they're told to
be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire illegals are most
likely looking for fast, not careful.

That is the whole problem with hiring illegals and buying foreign crap -
everyone up and down the chain doesn't seem to understand that it's all
a race to the bottom!




Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either
because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or
use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because
they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard,
work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there
self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their
insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they
can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals.




Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they
might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more
money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?






They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't
try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the
US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like
Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay
Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made
product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up
in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling
crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often.



I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored
in to some extent, rather than by country of origin.



Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then
again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not
at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting
off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the
variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.


Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc.

I don't buy my food there either. Wal Mart already controls too much of
the retail business as it is, and I won't give them one more dime!

Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?