Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

Oscar_Lives wrote:

"Rodney Rash" wrote in message
news:3yEFd.4580$OF5.1806@attbi_s52...

USENET READER wrote:


Rodney Rash wrote:


USENET READER wrote:


I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that
few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and
Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave
labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you
an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy
them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the
EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime
the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose
always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good
deal. How can American companies compete with that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made
tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools
as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because
they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any
more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?







Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!




I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and
hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead
to the destruction of the middle class.





You don't love America. I'll bet you are on public assistance or are
a fag with an agenda against everything that this country was founded
upon and you are mad at God for making you queer.



Actualy I love America. But it is interesting how you ****ing fascist
assholes proclaim your love for America yet you hate everyone who
disagrees with you who has the balls to use their First Ammendment
rights of free speech.


And we'll get to those, so called first amendment rights as soon as the
right wing court is seated.
Long live King George II W.
And I pray you are a Christian.

Not if I get to you and your fascist asshole friends first! Do you
really want that little pip GW Bush to install a theoracy in this
country telling you that everythign you do has to hav a moral basis?
How moral is it to cut Social Security to steal money and transfer it to
the rich Wall Street bankers, as well as all the rest of the immoral
crap that Bush is pulling?

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that
few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and
Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave
labor).







Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.






And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it
is still owned by those who run the government.





Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite
a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough
to know this.




No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the
private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these
factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but
with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has
changed in shape, the end result isn't really different?



Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.


Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed
to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock?
that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign
investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party
bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They
could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging
- what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them?

You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about.
The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are
clueless about this subject.








Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you
an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy
them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the
EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime
the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose
always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good
deal. How can American companies compete with that?







They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in
business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll
survive.






It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation,
so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other
choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can
afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business.
It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going
overseas in the first place.





The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard
for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came
on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few
bucks cheaper than someone like Delta.




Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars
he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care
payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc -
they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's
needs. They can do that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which
some of them qualify for even if they work fulll time) and if they
put off regular health care and use the emergency room for chronic
health care needs.



I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap
import over better quality.




And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as
you can.





Yes, you do.




WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and
bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing
illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?



No argument from me.



If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested
employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the
border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be
cut through or climbed over.





No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to
help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me
off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals,
and that so many people look the other way so they can take
advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent.




But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?







There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are
you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?






Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.



One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.







That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.






If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.





It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases,
the American products were overpriced junk.




Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file
worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what
the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build
the crap because there wasn't anything else available?



Some of it was the workers, some was the management.


Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap and
then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of the most
productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets their heads
out of their asses!

Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to place
the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.




Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away -
you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught
up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or
other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies
couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on
investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy
investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too!



I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame than
business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame investors and
business only.


Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft for
years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who has not
gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take less money,
from having to make the difficult choice to buy some cheaper goods in
order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs, etc. After all - the
cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the consumer to buy had the
business owners not made them first.

Again, you are trying to blame the business instead of the individual.
There are many factors at work, not just the business trying to sell
cheap products. Many people have chosen cheap, low quality, not for the
reasons you state, but just because it's cheaper and they can have more
toys than if they had bought a better quality item.





The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.







That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican
laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say
the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen.






They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done,
or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and
cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard
workers.





That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have
the said line marked, than the workers.




You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I
had to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted
them marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for
weeks to start a project - you work without.



I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from them.
And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute before
calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then call
weeks ahead. A good contractor understands these things and schedules
appropriately.


You don't know the situation and it is nothing like you say it is.

I know the difference between a good contractor and a bad one. I also
know the locating company has always responded to my requests.




On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where
the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not
break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and
more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want
to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house
has cable or not.



It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done
sloppy, it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that the
crews will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If they're
told to be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire illegals
are most likely looking for fast, not careful.


That is the whole problem with hiring illegals and buying foreign crap -
everyone up and down the chain doesn't seem to understand that it's all
a race to the bottom!




Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either
because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or
use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because
they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard,
work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there
self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their
insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they
can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals.





Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will
continue.




Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made
tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools
as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because
they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any
more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?







They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't
try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is
choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in
the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like
Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay
Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made
product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up
in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling
crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often.




I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored
in to some extent, rather than by country of origin.




Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then
again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not
at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting
off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the
variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.



Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc.


I don't buy my food there either. Wal Mart already controls too much of
the retail business as it is, and I won't give them one more dime!

Talk about believing lies, a few posts back, you claimed it was the
Republicans
who were responsible for allowing illegal aliens into the US. That's a
whopper!
Any time the issue of illegal immigration comes up, everyone knows it's
the
Democrats that pander to the illegals and routinely try to paint
Republicans who try
to do anything to stop it as some kind of uncaring racist. The
conservatives rule
the Republican party today, and if they had their way, the would take
measures
to stop illegal immigration.

How many bills to deal with illegal immigration have been introduced by
Democrats?
Clinton had 8 years to deal with it, did he do anything? Which party
was running
around California a year ago trying to change the law so illegal
alliens could get drivers
licenses? As I recall, the Terminator put the kabosh on that, didn't
he?

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?

I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Rodney Rash wrote:
USENET READER wrote:

Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



Rodney Rash wrote:

USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few
power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red
China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where
the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor).

Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned
DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually
dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with
extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the
time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an
extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them -
even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you
can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the
older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always
gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal.
How can American companies compete with that?

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up
to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.

The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades
(electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber
(who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are
mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they
almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the
job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually
stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and
gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools,
or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they
might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they
might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more
money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?








Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal
whacko!!!!





I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist
assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big
corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and
hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead
to the destruction of the middle class.





Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know
how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart
my friend. Smart.
5 years ago I was a factory slob.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.
Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.




Right - why are you on USENET when you should be out forclosing on
widows and orphans? You bought fareast stock - know what that makes you?

Here's a hint.....

Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.
Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.

When comes the revolution - which side of the gun barrel are you gonna
be on? Chances are - when the masses come looking for you, your
$7/hour rent a cop will desert his post and leave you to stew in your
own juices.



Ah, the patriotism is touching but you know what? The US of A is toast.
Has been for 25 years. Why do you think the jobs are going overseas? Can
you say, "One world government"? And who says I'm from the US of A?


Well, since you are posting from a Comcast/Mediacom account you are
pretty much guaranteed to be in the "US of A". As far as your
investments in "fareast stocks" are concerned your message has poser
written all over it.

Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:38:15 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:

Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was
from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German
at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages?

I don't know. The few remaining scraps from his diary are written in
German. There is a Chateau D'Isque in Alsace-Lorraine, however. It
seems they got chased out of France into Germany in the 1200s by the
peasants. I dunno if there is any connection between them and my
great-great grandfather.

I dunno if I'd make claims to being French, Tom. I lived
just across the border from Lorraine for a few years; crossing
the border was like walking into a trash dump. They had
huge amounts of common litter everywhere in the streets and
on the sidewalks. The best one-word description I can give it
would be "seedy" or "unkempt".

FYI - many of the local Germans spoke quite a bit of French,
too - and they all used a French pronunciation for the town
of Bitburg ("bit-bourgh" - which is why the GIs called it
"bit-bush").
Just a few miles north, the Luxembourgers concocted a strange
language out of it: Luxembourgish, which is just about half
German and half old French.

Susan Hogarth wrote:

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:


Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it
was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this
quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the
stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit
margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range,
and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an
inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80%
of the excellent-quality high-end version price.
Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a
widget buy it.

Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior
Chinese model is available?

Here's one: a wheel or gear puller. Try buying one in a
Triangle retail business that isn't made in China.
A non-Chinese anvil, or heavy vise. Want some more?
Trot on down to a local computer store and try to buy a
PC with an American-made motherboard. Even IBM's are made
in China... Same deal for a VCR or TV set. (Probably DVD
players, too...)

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:

Tom Disque wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:38:15 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:

Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was
from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German
at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages?

I don't know. The few remaining scraps from his diary are written in
German. There is a Chateau D'Isque in Alsace-Lorraine, however. It
seems they got chased out of France into Germany in the 1200s by the
peasants. I dunno if there is any connection between them and my
great-great grandfather.

I dunno if I'd make claims to being French, Tom. I lived
just across the border from Lorraine for a few years; crossing
the border was like walking into a trash dump. They had
huge amounts of common litter everywhere in the streets and
on the sidewalks. The best one-word description I can give it
would be "seedy" or "unkempt".

This strongly reminds me of my commute 26-28 years ago when I taught
in Durham County and occupied an old farmhouse in Chatham County.
Crossing the county line the *pavement* disappeared and my route led
past a half-dozen informal trash dumps along the rutted washboard dirt
and gravel road. "Seedy" summed it up.

Gregor

C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that
few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and
Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with
slave labor).


Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.

And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected
members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it
is still owned by those who run the government.

Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite
a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed
enough to know this.

No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns
the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized
these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers,
but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has
changed in shape, the end result isn't really different?

Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.

Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is
supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can
own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to
attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to
reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than
free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave
their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do
that? Sue them?

You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about.
The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are
clueless about this subject.

The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the
per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5
billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that
the average chinese citizen owns stock??

According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a cite!


Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the
reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage
and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and
drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost
always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF
always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most
people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and
purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and
swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So
other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange
tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American
companies compete with that?

They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product
they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in
business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll
survive.

It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with
inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no
other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no
one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in
business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for
going overseas in the first place.

The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard
for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came
on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a
few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta.

Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the
cars he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent,
make care payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica
insurance, etc - they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all
their family's needs. They can do that if they go on the dole -
food stamps (which some of them qualify for even if they work fulll
time) and if they put off regular health care and use the emergency
room for chronic health care needs.

I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap
import over better quality.

And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much
as you can.

Yes, you do.

WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and
bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be
competing illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of
someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen
property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen
goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other
employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?

No argument from me.

If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or
arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back
over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that
couldn't be cut through or climbed over.

No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to
help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me
off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals,
and that so many people look the other way so they can take
advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent.

But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?

There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are
you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?

Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.

One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores.
The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold
up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts
unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or
cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.

That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.

If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.

It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their
money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases,
the American products were overpriced junk.

Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and
file worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of
what the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them
build the crap because there wasn't anything else available?

Some of it was the workers, some was the management.

Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap and
then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of the most
productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets their heads
out of their asses!


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to place
the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.

Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.


Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away -
you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught
up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or
other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies
couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on
investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy
investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too!

I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame
than business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame
investors and business only.

Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft
for years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who
has not gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take less
money, from having to make the difficult choice to buy some cheaper
goods in order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs, etc. After
all - the cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the consumer to
buy had the business owners not made them first.


Again, you are trying to blame the business instead of the individual.
There are many factors at work, not just the business trying to sell
cheap products. Many people have chosen cheap, low quality, not for the
reasons you state, but just because it's cheaper and they can have more
toys than if they had bought a better quality item.

Many didn't have a choice.


The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to
construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed
trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the
plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers
(who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican
and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual
supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out
for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone,
looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy.

That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican
laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't
say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen.

They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything
done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut
phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done
by this hard workers.

That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to
have the said line marked, than the workers.

You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I
had to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted
them marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for
weeks to start a project - you work without.

I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from
them. And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute
before calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then
call weeks ahead. A good contractor understands these things and
schedules appropriately.

You don't know the situation and it is nothing like you say it is.


I know the difference between a good contractor and a bad one. I also
know the locating company has always responded to my requests.

On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where
the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not
break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and
more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want
to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house
has cable or not.

It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done
sloppy, it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that
the crews will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If
they're told to be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire
illegals are most likely looking for fast, not careful.

That is the whole problem with hiring illegals and buying foreign crap
- everyone up and down the chain doesn't seem to understand that it's
all a race to the bottom!

Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either
because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment
or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or
because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work
hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They
pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay
their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools
when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that
hire illegals.

Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will
continue.

Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal
immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made
tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools
as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because
they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any
more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary?

They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't
try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer
is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made
in the US.


The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product -
sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like
Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay
Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made
product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied
up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money
selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often.

I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality
factored in to some extent, rather than by country of origin.

Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then
again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not
at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting
off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the
variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store.


Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc.

I don't buy my food there either. Wal Mart already controls too much
of the retail business as it is, and I won't give them one more dime!

Tom Disque wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]



And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle
productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for
every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names
because you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged
into that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in
a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old
wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is
plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is
responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the
building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure
it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them
from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how
to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs
to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to
be switched on and off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in
China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep
a Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging
in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and
grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you?

wrote:

Talk about believing lies, a few posts back, you claimed it was the
Republicans
who were responsible for allowing illegal aliens into the US. That's a
whopper!
Any time the issue of illegal immigration comes up, everyone knows it's
the
Democrats that pander to the illegals and routinely try to paint
Republicans who try
to do anything to stop it as some kind of uncaring racist. The
conservatives rule
the Republican party today, and if they had their way, the would take
measures
to stop illegal immigration.

Actually I blame both sides, but since the rich business owners give 8
to 10 times more money to the GOP, then doesn't it make sense that the
GOP is the party responsible for this stuff?

Since 9/11, Bush has been trying to get everyone to support his policies
based on FEAR! Yet, we have these open borders to the south and anyone
can and does cross them. We should close them down and we have the
tehnology to do so - but we won't. Why? Because bg business is paying
off whatever politicians will take their money - and this includes Dems
too - wants to keep the supply of workers high and therefore the prices
for labor low.

How many bills to deal with illegal immigration have been introduced by
Democrats?
Clinton had 8 years to deal with it, did he do anything? Which party
was running
around California a year ago trying to change the law so illegal
alliens could get drivers
licenses? As I recall, the Terminator put the kabosh on that, didn't
he?

Actually - there were more restrictions on illegal immigrants during the
CLinton years than under Bush - in the last 4 years the problem has
gotten worse. In NC, there are now 500,000 illegal immigrants in the
state and they are pushing down wages, and using up services that they
don't pay taxes for. That is one of the problems that governents have
all over the country!

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to place
the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.

Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.

It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.

Gregor

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...
Tom Disque wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:


On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]


And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5
shovel-leaners for every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because
you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into
that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a
Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall
outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged
in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible
for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or
theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna
blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a
show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He
knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or
perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and
off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China
electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a
Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in
some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's
O2 generator goes out - would you?


You are a ****ing joke.

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that
few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and
Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with
slave labor).



Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.


And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is
well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents
and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government.


Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for
quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be
informed enough to know this.


No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns
the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized
these factories and now they split the profits not with the
workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how
while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different?


Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.


Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is
supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can
own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to
attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to
reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than
free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave
their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do
that? Sue them?


You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking
about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously
are clueless about this subject.


The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the
per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5
billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that
the average chinese citizen owns stock??

You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.


According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a cite!

Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.




Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the
reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is
garbage and usually dies after a short period of time.
Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes
which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and
you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty
program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring
back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to
HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can
American companies compete with that?


They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest
product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be
in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll
survive.


It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with
inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no
other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no
one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in
business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business
for going overseas in the first place.


The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard
for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came
on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a
few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta.


Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the
cars he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent,
make care payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica
insurance, etc - they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all
their family's needs. They can do that if they go on the dole -
food stamps (which some of them qualify for even if they work fulll
time) and if they put off regular health care and use the emergency
room for chronic health care needs.


I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap
import over better quality.


And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who
hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much
as you can.


Yes, you do.


WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and
bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be
competing illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent
of someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying
stolen property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or
buys stolen goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist
that other employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws?


No argument from me.


If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or
arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back
over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that
couldn't be cut through or climbed over.


No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to
help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me
off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for
illegals, and that so many people look the other way so they can
take advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent.


But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder if
any more tools are going to be made in the USA?


There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them?
Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?


Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.


One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the
stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made,
don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop,
everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good
for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.


That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.


If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.


It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with
their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many
cases, the American products were overpriced junk.


Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and
file worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of
what the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had
them build the crap because there wasn't anything else available?


Some of it was the workers, some was the management.


Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap and
then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of the
most productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets their
heads out of their asses!



Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to
place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.


Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.

Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.




Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away
- you got more value for your money. Then when American goods
caught up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to
Thailand or other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan
companies couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on
the return on investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only
- greedy investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame
too!


I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame
than business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame
investors and business only.


Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft
for years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who
has not gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take less
money, from having to make the difficult choice to buy some cheaper
goods in order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs, etc. After
all - the cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the consumer to
buy had the business owners not made them first.



Again, you are trying to blame the business instead of the individual.
There are many factors at work, not just the business trying to sell
cheap products. Many people have chosen cheap, low quality, not for
the reasons you state, but just because it's cheaper and they can have
more toys than if they had bought a better quality item.


Many didn't have a choice.

And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to place
the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.

Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.

Exactly the kinds of things I was trying to get usenet to understand.
Unfortunately, it seems he either can't or won't. I think he's actually
just trolling.