Oscar_Lives wrote:

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...

Tom Disque wrote:


On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:



Tom Disque wrote:



On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER
wrote:




Oscar_Lives wrote:

[snip]



And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5
shovel-leaners for every one worker.

Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put
their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and
wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime
protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the
protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas.
SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in
some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the
bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up!

[snip]

Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are
not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who
strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules.


What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a
contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of
management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say
other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates
the rules by which the work gets done.

It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact
that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or
jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because
you can't handle it?


I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them
together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people.
Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you
write?

I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in
equipment, though.

Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into
that circuit?

I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a
Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall
outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged
in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible
for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or
theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna
blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a
show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He
knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or
perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and
off for the show.

There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician
to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China
electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a
Broadway show from starting on time?

I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't
plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them
checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in
some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's
O2 generator goes out - would you?



You are a ****ing joke.

Why - because it never occured to you that there might be real practical
or safety concerns behind those so-called rules you make fun of? Take
your head out of Bush's ass and stop laughing at the Bush twin's jokes
and look around - if it wasn't for the unions you'd be working in more
of a ****ing slave-labor corporate work state than you are now!

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to place
the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.

Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.

Gregor

Right - another one of those urban myths - a wrench in the door. Notice
it isn't you that found the wrench. What brand of wrench was it anyway?
Dingleberry - they don't use a regular wrench to build cars on an
assembly line - they use air-powered tools. What are you gonna tell me
now - that the union guys went out and bought boxes of Mac Tools to
leave in the doors of cars?

Actually - it is management's fault when there is a strike or a work
slowdown. That is usually because management wouldn't bargain fairly
with the workers. If management stops treating workers like tools that
can be worked hard until they break then be replaced with illegal
immigrant workers, then workers won't need to strike!

C G wrote:

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to
place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.


Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the
market with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.


Exactly the kinds of things I was trying to get usenet to understand.
Unfortunately, it seems he either can't or won't. I think he's actually
just trolling.


You trying to get me to understand an urban myth and anti-labor
bullshit? Better marshall your facts first moron! Or better yet, show
me a wrench and an affidavit!

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that
few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the
Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in
Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and
Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country
where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with
slave labor).




Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.



And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is
well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents
and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government.



Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for
quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be
informed enough to know this.



No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns
the private companies if not the party elite? They just
privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with
the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me
how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really
different?



Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock
market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have
expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.



Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is
supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can
own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to
attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to
reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than
free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave
their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do
that? Sue them?



You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking
about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously
are clueless about this subject.



The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the
per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5
billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove
that the average chinese citizen owns stock??


You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.

You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the
per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not
like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice.

China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US
investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The
imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US
Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really
can't do anything else with all that money!

Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point
- what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita
income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they
invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people
living and investing in the US market?

And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you
feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer?

Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those
days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man
while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company
Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich
cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna
protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after
you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live
behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich
pukes anyway?



According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a cite!


Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.

Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the
wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live
in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived -
if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an
average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been
living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average
- they were the top of the economic pile in China.




Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the
reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is
garbage and usually dies after a short period of time.
Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes
which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and
you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty
program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though
for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring
back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one
doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to
HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How
can American companies compete with that?



They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest
product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be
in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk,
they'll survive.



It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with
inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no
other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods
no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in
business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business
for going overseas in the first place.



The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American
consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard
for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly
came on the scene, people endorsed their products because they
were a few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta.



Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting
paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist
Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more,
realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the
cars he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent,
make care payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica
insurance, etc - they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all
their family's needs. They can do that if they go on the dole -
food stamps (which some of them qualify for even if they work
fulll time) and if they put off regular health care and use the
emergency room for chronic health care needs.



I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for
many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as
possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap
import over better quality.


And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor
who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as
much as you can.



Yes, you do.



WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and
bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be
competing illegally with you.

A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent
of someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying
stolen property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or
buys stolen goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you
insist that other employers not have an unfair advantage by
obeying the laws?



No argument from me.


If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or
arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals
back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls
that couldn't be cut through or climbed over.



No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to
help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es
me off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for
illegals, and that so many people look the other way so they can
take advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent.


But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned
something about the construction trades which made me wonder
if any more tools are going to be made in the USA?



There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them?
Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them?



Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find
American made tools.


One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and
harder to find American made tools of his trade in the
stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made,
don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop,
everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good
for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc.



That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool.



If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work.



It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with
their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many
cases, the American products were overpriced junk.



Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and
file worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless
of what the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had
them build the crap because there wasn't anything else available?



Some of it was the workers, some was the management.



Sorry - most of it was management trying to do stuff on the cheap
and then cutting their own throats. American workers are some of
the most productive workers in the world, if their managerment gets
their heads out of their asses!




Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to
place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.



Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the market
with management.


Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.

And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that
shit? Management should have but didn't.




Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you
bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away
- you got more value for your money. Then when American goods
caught up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to
Thailand or other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan
companies couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on
the return on investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only
- greedy investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame
too!



I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame
than business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame
investors and business only.



Nope - sorry - in the USA the consumers have been getting the shaft
for years. How do you blame someone who has lost their job, or who
has not gotten a pay raise for years, or in fact has had to take
less money, from having to make the difficult choice to buy some
cheaper goods in order to pay for medicine, a visit to the docs,
etc. After all - the cheaper goods wouldn't have been there for the
consumer to buy had the business owners not made them first.




Again, you are trying to blame the business instead of the
individual. There are many factors at work, not just the business
trying to sell cheap products. Many people have chosen cheap, low
quality, not for the reasons you state, but just because it's cheaper
and they can have more toys than if they had bought a better quality
item.



Many didn't have a choice.


And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.



Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on
what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't
have a say on what goes on the shelves.

Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to
sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for,
and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to
make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied
parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close
to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the
customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially
when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make
their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom.

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...
You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.

You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the
per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not
like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice.

A repressed demofag, aren't you a joy!

China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US
investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The
imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US
Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really
can't do anything else with all that money!

Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point
- what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita
income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they
invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people
living and investing in the US market?

Personal attacks a point don't make.


And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you
feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer?

I doubt you live in squalor, fag boy.


Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those
days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man
while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company
Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich
cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna
protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after
you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live
behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich
pukes anyway?

No, but say hello to my Colt .45

According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a
cite!


Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.

Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the
wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live
in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived -
if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an
average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been
living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average
- they were the top of the economic pile in China.

What's with the class division, fag boy? Are you not only repressed, but
poor, too. Damn, that's what you get for believing the communist lies your
faggot friends were telling you. Be careful, they only want to **** you in
the ass, but then, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, eh,
fag boy?

Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.

And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that
shit? Management should have but didn't.

Sure, point the finger at everyone but yourself. Ever hear of
accountability? No? I guess not, because you want to blame God for making
you a fag. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself., you want everyone
else to be responsible for you. Too bad, fag boy!

And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.



Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on
what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't
have a say on what goes on the shelves.

Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to
sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for,
and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to
make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied
parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close
to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the
customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially
when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make
their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom.

Sorry, but, Wal-Mart gives their customers what they want, whether you like
or not, fag boy! Quit worrying about everybody else, and get a life.

Neill

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...


Gregor wrote:


Right - another one of those urban myths - a wrench in the door. Notice
it isn't you that found the wrench. What brand of wrench was it anyway?
Dingleberry - they don't use a regular wrench to build cars on an
assembly line - they use air-powered tools. What are you gonna tell me
now - that the union guys went out and bought boxes of Mac Tools to
leave in the doors of cars?

Actually - it is management's fault when there is a strike or a work
slowdown. That is usually because management wouldn't bargain fairly
with the workers. If management stops treating workers like tools that
can be worked hard until they break then be replaced with illegal
immigrant workers, then workers won't need to strike!

Right, it's always somebody else's fault. I'm beginning to detect a distinct
theme in you dialogue. You're one ****ed off, repressed demofag, aren't you"

Thanks for sharing with the group. You're the best laugh I've had all day!

Neill

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to
place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.



Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it -
that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the
market with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.



Exactly the kinds of things I was trying to get usenet to understand.
Unfortunately, it seems he either can't or won't. I think he's
actually just trolling.



You trying to get me to understand an urban myth and anti-labor
bullshit? Better marshall your facts first moron! Or better yet, show
me a wrench and an affidavit!

Yup, as I suspected, you're just trolling. Later troll.

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice
that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most
of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are
made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business
with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist
China, a country where the factories are owned by the state
and staffed with slave labor).





Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.




And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is
well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents
and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government.




Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for
quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be
informed enough to know this.




No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns
the private companies if not the party elite? They just
privatized these factories and now they split the profits not
with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell
me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really
different?




Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving
stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't
have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance.




Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is
supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen
can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up
to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to
reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than
free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave
their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do
that? Sue them?




You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking
about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously
are clueless about this subject.




The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the
per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5
billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove
that the average chinese citizen owns stock??



You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.


You know these citizens from where? You go over to China?

I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before
reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I
lived there for several years. I have friends from many different
income levels and from many different places including cities and the
country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few
things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading
skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else.

You got him pegged. Just another queer who is mad at God for making him
that way, and who thinks that his salvation lies in sucking up to the
socialist democrats.


"Neill" wrote in message
. com...

"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...
You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.

You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the
per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not
like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice.

A repressed demofag, aren't you a joy!

China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US
investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The
imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US
Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really
can't do anything else with all that money!

Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point
- what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita
income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they
invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people
living and investing in the US market?

Personal attacks a point don't make.


And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you
feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer?

I doubt you live in squalor, fag boy.


Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those
days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man
while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company
Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich
cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna
protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after
you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live
behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich
pukes anyway?

No, but say hello to my Colt .45

According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a
cite!


Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.

Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the
wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live
in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived -
if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an
average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been
living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average
- they were the top of the economic pile in China.

What's with the class division, fag boy? Are you not only repressed, but
poor, too. Damn, that's what you get for believing the communist lies your
faggot friends were telling you. Be careful, they only want to **** you in
the ass, but then, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know,
eh,
fag boy?

Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.

And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that
shit? Management should have but didn't.

Sure, point the finger at everyone but yourself. Ever hear of
accountability? No? I guess not, because you want to blame God for making
you a fag. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself., you want
everyone
else to be responsible for you. Too bad, fag boy!

And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.



Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on
what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't
have a say on what goes on the shelves.

Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to
sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for,
and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to
make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied
parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close
to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the
customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially
when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make
their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom.

Sorry, but, Wal-Mart gives their customers what they want, whether you
like
or not, fag boy! Quit worrying about everybody else, and get a life.

Neill

Neill wrote:
"USENET READER" wrote in message
ink.net...

You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.

You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the
per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not
like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice.


A repressed demofag, aren't you a joy!

Talking about personal attacks? You don't have any information or cites
to back up your claims, so you call someone a fag. What kind of a
fart-shiffing, crypto-fascists Bush lover are you?

China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US
investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The
imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US
Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really
can't do anything else with all that money!

Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point
- what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita
income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they
invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people
living and investing in the US market?


Personal attacks a point don't make.

Dickhead.



And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you
feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer?


I doubt you live in squalor, fag boy.




Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those
days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man
while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company
Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich
cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna
protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after
you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live
behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich
pukes anyway?


No, but say hello to my Colt .45


According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a

cite!


Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.

Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the
wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live
in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived -
if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an
average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been
living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average
- they were the top of the economic pile in China.


What's with the class division, fag boy? Are you not only repressed, but
poor, too. Damn, that's what you get for believing the communist lies your
faggot friends were telling you. Be careful, they only want to **** you in
the ass, but then, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, eh,
fag boy?

When asked for a cite, all you can do is cal me a fag - that means you
don't have a ****ing clue.

I on the other hand can show cites that Chinese labor doesn't own stock
and that companies like Wal Mart actually hurt American workers more
than they help them:


From http://cecd.aers.psu.edu/pubs/PovertyResearchWM.pdf

Wal-Mart and County-Wide Poverty
October 18, 2004
AERS STAFF PAPER No. 371

Conclusion
After carefully and comprehensively accounting for other local
determinants of poverty, we find that the presence of Wal-Mart
unequivocally raised family poverty rates in US counties
during the 1990s relative to places that had no such stores. This was
true not only as a consequence of existing stores in a county in 1987,
but it was also an independent outcome of the location of new stores
between 1987 and 1998. The question whether the cost of relatively
higher poverty in a county is offset by the benefits of lower prices and
wider choices available to consumers associated with a Wal-Mart store
cannot be answered here.

However, if Wal-Mart does contribute to a higher poverty rate, then it
is not bearing the full economic and social costs of its business
practices. Instead, Wal-Mart transfers income from the working poor and
from taxpayers though welfare-programs directed at the poor to
stockholders and the heirs of the Wal-Mart fortune, as well as to
consumers. These transfers are in addition to the public infrastructure
subsidies often provided by local communities. Regardless of the
distributional effects, the Wal-Mart business model appears to extract
cumulative rents that exceed those earned by owners of other
corporations, including Microsoft.

From http://edworkforce.house.gov/democra...MARTREPORT.pdf

EVERYDAY LOW WAGES:
THE HIDDEN PRICE WE ALL PAY FOR WAL-MART
A REPORT BY THE DEMOCRATIC STAFF OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
REPRESENTATIVE GEORGE MILLER (D-CA), SENIOR DEMOCRAT
FEBRUARY 16, 2004

Wal-Mart maintains an extensive global network of 10,000 suppliers.74
Whether American, Bangladeshi, Chinese, or Honduran, Wal-Mart plays
these producers against one another in search of lower and lower prices.
American suppliers have been forced to relocate their businesses
overseas to maintain Wal-Mart contracts.75 Overseas manufacturers are
forced to engage in cutthroat competition that further erodes wages and
working conditions of what often already are sweatshops. To keep up with
the pressure to produce ever cheaper goods, factories force employees to
work overtime or work for weeks without a day off. A Bangladeshi factory
worker told the Los Angeles Times that employees at her factory worked
from 8 a.m. to 3 a.m. for 10 and 15 day stretches just to meet Wal-Mart
price demands. And still, Wal-Mart’sgeneral manager for Bangladesh
complained of his country’s factories, telling the Los Angeles Times, “I
think they need to improve. When I entered a factory in China, it seemed
they are very fast.”76

While low-wage jobs displace higher-paid manufacturing jobs in the
United States, undercutting living standards at home, living standards
abroad are not reaping the benefits one might expect. Reports indicate
that Wal-Mart’s bargaining power is able to maintain low wages and poor
working conditions among its foreign suppliers. The Washington Post has
explained: “As capital scours the globe for cheaper and more malleable
workers, and as poor countries seek multinational companies to provide
jobs, lift production, and open export markets, Wal-Mart and China have
forged themselves into the ultimate joint venture, their symbiosis
influencing the terms of labor and consumption the world over.”77 Thanks
to a ban on independent trade unions and a lack of other basic human
rights, China offers Wal-Mart a highly-disciplined and cheap workforce.
A Chinese labor official who asked to remain anonymous for fear of
punishment told the Washington Post that “Wal-Mart pressures the factory
to cut its price, and the factory responds with longer hours or lower
pay. And the workers have no options.”78

One employee of a Chinese supplier described the difficulties of
surviving on $75 per month. She could rarely afford to buy meat, and her
family largely subsisted on vegetables. Over four years, she had not
received a single salary increase.79

Wal-Mart has countered that it insists that its suppliers enforce labor
standards and comply with Chinese law. One-hundred Wal-Mart auditors
inspect Chinese plants, and the company has suspended contracts with
about 400 suppliers, mainly for violating overtime limits. An additional
72 factories were permanently blacklisted in 2003 for violating child
labor standards. Still, critics point out that the Wal-Mart does not
regularly inspect smaller factories that use middlemen to sell to the
company. Nor does it inspect the factories of subcontractors. A Chinese
labor organizer explained that the inspections are “ineffective,” since
Wal-Mart usually notifies the factories in advance. The factories “often
prepare by cleaning up, creating fake time sheets and briefing workers
on what to say.”80

The factories themselves complain that, because Wal-Mart demands such
low prices, they have slim profit margins – if any. A manager of one
Chinese supplier told the Washington Post, “In the beginning, we made
money … But when Wal-Mart started to launch nationwide distribution,
they pressured us for a special price below our cost. Now, we’re losing
money on every box, while Wal-Mart is making more money.”81 Obviously,
one way to regain a profit for such suppliers would be to begin cutting
back on labor costs.

Finally, as testament to Wal-Mart’s stalwart anti-union policy, none of
its 31 stores in China are unionized, despite the fact that the
Communist Party-controlled official union has told the company that it
would not help workers fight for higher pay.82 Oddly enough, Article 10
of China’s Trade Union Law requires that any establishment with 25 or
more workers must have a union. Wal-Mart, however, claims that it has
received assurances from the central government that it need not allow
unions in any of its stores.83 As one reporter has explained, “The
explanation for the apparent contradiction may be that the government’s
desire for foreigninvestment and jobs trumps any concern for workers’
rights. That wouldn’t be surprising in the Chinese environment, where
strikes are forbidden and the official labor grouping actively supports
the government’s efforts to block the rise of independent unions.”84
With China, any company in search of pliant and cheap labor has found a
perfect mix of cooperative government officials and workers made
submissive through fear.

How the **** can anyone who hasn't had a wage increase in years and
can't afford to put food on the table and works from 8 AM until 3 AM
afford to buy stock? When do they find the time to run down to the
stock broker's office to make their purchase? Or do they do it on line?


Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.

And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that
shit? Management should have but didn't.


Sure, point the finger at everyone but yourself. Ever hear of
accountability? No? I guess not, because you want to blame God for making
you a fag. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself., you want everyone
else to be responsible for you. Too bad, fag boy!

Again - what an asshole - when given an example of something that you
can't refute, you call me a fag. Clearly the loser in this thread is
you - you can't even make a logical arguent to support your claims and
cannot offer cites in support of your claims.


And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.



Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on
what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't
have a say on what goes on the shelves.

Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to
sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for,
and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to
make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied
parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close
to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the
customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially
when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make
their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom.


Sorry, but, Wal-Mart gives their customers what they want, whether you like
or not, fag boy! Quit worrying about everybody else, and get a life.



Do people know that when they shop at Wal-Mart, they are shopping
themselves out of jobs?

Quit selling out your birthright and your country you ****ing fascist
asshole - and get ready for the time when we put your ass against the
wall and shoot you with the rest of the pukes. You want a blindfold, or
not? Menthol or regular?

From http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

The Wal-Mart You Don't Know

The giant retailer's low prices often come with a high cost. Wal-Mart's
relentless pressure can crush the companies it does business with and
force them to send jobs overseas. Are we shopping our way straight to
the unemployment line?

Therein lies the basic conundrum of doing business with the world's
largest retailer. By selling a gallon of kosher dills for less than most
grocers sell a quart, Wal-Mart may have provided a ser-vice for its
customers. But what did it do for Vlasic? The pickle maker had spent
decades convincing customers that they should pay a premium for its
brand. Now Wal-Mart was practically giving them away. And the fevered
buying spree that resulted distorted every aspect of Vlasic's
operations, from farm field to factory to financial statement.

Indeed, as Vlasic discovered, the real story of Wal-Mart, the story that
never gets told, is the story of the pressure the biggest retailer
relentlessly applies to its suppliers in the name of bringing us "every
day low prices." It's the story of what that pressure does to the
companies Wal-Mart does business with, to U.S. manufacturing, and to the
economy as a whole. That story can be found floating in a gallon jar of
pickles at Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart wields its power for just one purpose: to bring the lowest
possible prices to its customers. At Wal-Mart, that goal is never
reached. The retailer has a clear policy for suppliers: On basic
products that don't change, the price Wal-Mart will pay, and will charge
shoppers, must drop year after year. But what almost no one outside the
world of Wal-Mart and its 21,000 suppliers knows is the high cost of
those low prices. Wal-Mart has the power to squeeze profit-killing
concessions from vendors. To survive in the face of its pricing demands,
makers of everything from bras to bicycles to blue jeans have had to lay
off employees and close U.S. plants in favor of outsourcing products
from overseas.

One way to think of Wal-Mart is as a vast pipeline that gives non-U.S.
companies direct access to the American market. "One of the things that
limits or slows the growth of imports is the cost of establishing
connections and networks," says Paul Krugman, the Princeton University
economist. "Wal-Mart is so big and so centralized that it can all at
once hook Chinese and other suppliers into its digital system.
So--wham!--you have a large switch to overseas sourcing in a period
quicker than under the old rules of retailing."

Steve Dobbins has been bearing the brunt of that switch. He's president
and CEO of Carolina Mills, a 75-year-old North Carolina company that
supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel makers--half of
which supply Wal-Mart. Carolina Mills grew steadily until 2000. But in
the past three years, as its customers have gone either overseas or out
of business, it has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600
employees to 1,200. Dobbins's customers have begun to face imported
clothing sold so cheaply to Wal-Mart that they could not compete even if
they paid their workers nothing.

"People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S.
cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' Sure, it's
held inflation down, and it's great to have bargains," says Dobbins.
"But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping
ourselves out of jobs."

You sure you aren't Oscar Wilde? You and that other loser who sniff
Dubya's farts for inspiration have no other refuge when you can't argue
logically than to call someone a fag, even though I am a very straight
photographer who shoots pics of naked women and get more pussy in a
month - and hot model pussy - than either of you two fat drunken slobs
get in your wildest wet dreams!

Oscar_Lives wrote:

You got him pegged. Just another queer who is mad at God for making him
that way, and who thinks that his salvation lies in sucking up to the
socialist democrats.


"Neill" wrote in message
. com...

"USENET READER" wrote in message
hlink.net...

You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just
shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock.
The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would
put most Americans to shame.

You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the
per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not
like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice.

A repressed demofag, aren't you a joy!


China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US
investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The
imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US
Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really
can't do anything else with all that money!

Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point
- what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita
income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they
invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people
living and investing in the US market?

Personal attacks a point don't make.



And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you
feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer?

I doubt you live in squalor, fag boy.


Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those
days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man
while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company
Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich
cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna
protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after
you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live
behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich
pukes anyway?

No, but say hello to my Colt .45


According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are
being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their
overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock
ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say
that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a

cite!


Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few
news articles, I've lived there.

Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the
wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live
in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived -
if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an
average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been
living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average
- they were the top of the economic pile in China.

What's with the class division, fag boy? Are you not only repressed, but
poor, too. Damn, that's what you get for believing the communist lies your
faggot friends were telling you. Be careful, they only want to **** you in
the ass, but then, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know,
eh,
fag boy?


Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it
well or not. Some choose to be sloppy.

And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that
shit? Management should have but didn't.

Sure, point the finger at everyone but yourself. Ever hear of
accountability? No? I guess not, because you want to blame God for making
you a fag. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself., you want
everyone
else to be responsible for you. Too bad, fag boy!


And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap.



Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on
what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't
have a say on what goes on the shelves.

Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to
sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for,
and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to
make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied
parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close
to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the
customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially
when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make
their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom.

Sorry, but, Wal-Mart gives their customers what they want, whether you
like
or not, fag boy! Quit worrying about everybody else, and get a life.

Neill

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


USENET READER wrote:

I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice
that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most
of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are
made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business
with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist
China, a country where the factories are owned by the state
and staffed with slave labor).






Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been
privatized.





And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is
well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all
intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the
government.





Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for
quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be
informed enough to know this.





No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who
owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just
privatized these factories and now they split the profits not
with the workers, but with their American investors. So you
tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't
really different?





Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving
stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I
wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of
ignorance.





Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is
supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen
can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up
to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier
to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than
free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and
leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when
they do that? Sue them?





You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking
about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously
are clueless about this subject.





The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what
the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like
1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an
prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock??




You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you
just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own
stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and
save would put most Americans to shame.



You know these citizens from where? You go over to China?


I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before
reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I
lived there for several years. I have friends from many different
income levels and from many different places including cities and the
country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few
things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading
skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else.

You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you
lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let
you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who
had no democratic freedom. If they can buy stocks, they can only buy
the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy.

You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and
capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the
Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r
starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't
make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim.

C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try to
place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.




Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it
- that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the
market with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.




Exactly the kinds of things I was trying to get usenet to understand.
Unfortunately, it seems he either can't or won't. I think he's
actually just trolling.




You trying to get me to understand an urban myth and anti-labor
bullshit? Better marshall your facts first moron! Or better yet,
show me a wrench and an affidavit!


Yup, as I suspected, you're just trolling. Later troll.

What - when I ask one of your asshole friends to back up his claim that
his cousin found a wrench in his car door, you claim that I am trolling?
What the **** are you talking about? Cars are built with air tools,
not hand tools - so how the **** would a hand tool get stuck in a car door?

You sir are a ****ing moron!

USENET READER wrote:

What - when I ask one of your [expletive deleted] friends to back up his claim that
his cousin found a wrench in his car door, you claim that I am trolling?
What the [expletive deleted] are you talking about? Cars are built with air tools,
not hand tools - so how the **** would a hand tool get stuck in a car door?

Sabotage, perhaps. I can't show you the wrench, but I certainly
believe my cousin over your filthy mouth.

The whole family had heard him complain for months that there was a
rattle in his new car. He'd taken it back to the dealer for the third
time when they told him they'd found a wrench in rear driver's side
door. His next step would have been turning it back in under the
lemon law. Whether the dealer made up the story, I can't tell you.
But he never had another problem with that car before he traded it in,
for another Ford.

Gregor


You sir are a ****ing moron!

USENET READER wrote:


C G wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:

Gregor wrote:

USENET READER wrote:



C G wrote:


Some American workers are productive, others will do as little as
possible to get by. Same with management. You continue to try
to place the blame on one group, but that's just not the case.





Sorry - labor doesn't decide what to produce and how to produce it
- that is management's job. I place the blame on the crap on the
market with management.


It isn't management's fault when labor stages a slowdown or sabotages
products. My cousin had a rattle in his American car that turned out
to be a wrench left inside the door during production.





Exactly the kinds of things I was trying to get usenet to
understand. Unfortunately, it seems he either can't or won't. I
think he's actually just trolling.





You trying to get me to understand an urban myth and anti-labor
bullshit? Better marshall your facts first moron! Or better yet,
show me a wrench and an affidavit!



Yup, as I suspected, you're just trolling. Later troll.


What - when I ask one of your asshole friends to back up his claim that
his cousin found a wrench in his car door, you claim that I am trolling?
What the **** are you talking about? Cars are built with air tools,
not hand tools - so how the **** would a hand tool get stuck in a car door?
Shagua!!!