How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from an
old grower I know.

K Barrett

"jadel" wrote in message
oups.com...
How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

Most Mal labels that I have seen give a range for use. I have had no
problems at the lower rate, but have 'blacken leaf margins' on tender phal
leaves at the higher rate. Mal 57% EC calls for 1 to 2 teaspoons per gallon
and I would use it at between 1 and 1.25 teaspoon per gallon in late
afternoon or on cloudy days. Check your label and see if it does not give a
range to use, I think 2 teaspoons might be a bit strong. BTW, Mal is no
longer labeled for greenhouse use.
Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news
I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from an
old grower I know.

K Barrett

"jadel" wrote in message
oups.com...
How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

K Barrett wrote:
I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from an
old grower I know.


Thanks. That's what I need to know. Nighttime temps will soon dip
into the 40's, so I need to spray and get the plants ready for the move
indoors.


J. Del Col

I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Most Mal labels that I have seen give a range for use. I have had no
problems at the lower rate, but have 'blacken leaf margins' on tender phal
leaves at the higher rate. Mal 57% EC calls for 1 to 2 teaspoons per
gallon
and I would use it at between 1 and 1.25 teaspoon per gallon in late
afternoon or on cloudy days. Check your label and see if it does not give
a
range to use, I think 2 teaspoons might be a bit strong. BTW, Mal is no
longer labeled for greenhouse use.
Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news
I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins
from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from
an
old grower I know.

K Barrett

"jadel" wrote in message
oups.com...
How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

K Barrett wrote:
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

Works like a charm. I haven't used the formulation you used, but I did
use the tree and shrub version, which I think is just imidocloprid.
Great for scale. I've heard it is supposed to last a year... Maybe
that is hype. IIRC, it is also sold as Premier and Marathon (and a few
other trade names). If you believe the MSDS, it is less toxic to
mammals than many of the things we might otherwise use. If you want to
spend more money, there is a 'translaminar' formulation of imidocloprid
(Marathon II? I'm working without a net today...), that penetrates the
leaf tissue. I think the regular formulation has to be absorbed mainly
through the roots (applied as drench).

Only problem I've found with this stuff is that it makes the spidermites
go crazy. Like bunnies on viagra. My spidermite population went
through the roof when I sprayed with imidocloprid. Somebody pointed me
to an article which said that it was a growth promoter for mites, but I
can't find it right now.

Anyway, use it only if you don't have a problem with spider mites. Or
don't spray the mite prone plants. Or spray in conjunction with a good
miticide (if you can afford one). I'd rather not use any pesticides,
but if I have to use it again, I'll release some predatory mites a week
or two after spraying.



--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob" wrote in message
...
K Barrett wrote:
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked
down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I
have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

Works like a charm. I haven't used the formulation you used, but I did
use the tree and shrub version, which I think is just imidocloprid.
Great for scale. I've heard it is supposed to last a year... Maybe
that is hype. IIRC, it is also sold as Premier and Marathon (and a few
other trade names). If you believe the MSDS, it is less toxic to
mammals than many of the things we might otherwise use. If you want to
spend more money, there is a 'translaminar' formulation of imidocloprid
(Marathon II? I'm working without a net today...), that penetrates the
leaf tissue. I think the regular formulation has to be absorbed mainly
through the roots (applied as drench).

Only problem I've found with this stuff is that it makes the spidermites
go crazy. Like bunnies on viagra. My spidermite population went
through the roof when I sprayed with imidocloprid. Somebody pointed me
to an article which said that it was a growth promoter for mites, but I
can't find it right now.

Anyway, use it only if you don't have a problem with spider mites. Or
don't spray the mite prone plants. Or spray in conjunction with a good
miticide (if you can afford one). I'd rather not use any pesticides,
but if I have to use it again, I'll release some predatory mites a week
or two after spraying.



--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit


Yikes!! I sprayed it all over my catasetums, which ususally get mites like
crazy in my GH. Well, I'll keep an eye out. I've been keeping a higher
than usual humidity...so fingers crossed that'll keep the mites at bay.
(denial)

Thnaks for the heads up

K Barrett

It is somewhat counter intuitive but there seems to be a number of chemicals
that we use as pesticides that stimulate fecundity and act to cause a
resurgence weeks or months after the application of either the target pest,
or other insects and/or their predator populations that just happened to be
in the way. I remember learning in Pest management class that the product
called "Sevin" does the same thing to spider mites, although I don't know if
it acts this way on all species of mites or if the instructor followed the
common misuse of the term and referred to all mites as "spider" mites. I am
able to find much more info on the topic than I was a few years ago. It
seems that some chemicals that kill adult instars stimulate the egg
producing abilities of unhatched female eggs or of larvae that are exposed
to it. I also remember hearing that one chemical (forget the name) tended
to produce resurgent populations that were heavily weighted toward the
female gender of some insect (forget the name).

http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?reques...e=04&page=1144

Dish soap and rubbing alcohol probably makes them horny too. I know it has
this effect on me.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
"Rob" wrote in message
...
K Barrett wrote:
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the
imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked
down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I
have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

Works like a charm. I haven't used the formulation you used, but I did
use the tree and shrub version, which I think is just imidocloprid.
Great for scale. I've heard it is supposed to last a year... Maybe
that is hype. IIRC, it is also sold as Premier and Marathon (and a few
other trade names). If you believe the MSDS, it is less toxic to
mammals than many of the things we might otherwise use. If you want to
spend more money, there is a 'translaminar' formulation of imidocloprid
(Marathon II? I'm working without a net today...), that penetrates the
leaf tissue. I think the regular formulation has to be absorbed mainly
through the roots (applied as drench).

Only problem I've found with this stuff is that it makes the spidermites
go crazy. Like bunnies on viagra. My spidermite population went
through the roof when I sprayed with imidocloprid. Somebody pointed me
to an article which said that it was a growth promoter for mites, but I
can't find it right now.

Anyway, use it only if you don't have a problem with spider mites. Or
don't spray the mite prone plants. Or spray in conjunction with a good
miticide (if you can afford one). I'd rather not use any pesticides,
but if I have to use it again, I'll release some predatory mites a week
or two after spraying.



--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit


Yikes!! I sprayed it all over my catasetums, which ususally get mites like
crazy in my GH. Well, I'll keep an eye out. I've been keeping a higher
than usual humidity...so fingers crossed that'll keep the mites at bay.
(denial)

Thnaks for the heads up

K Barrett

K Barrett wrote:
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin ...

Hmmm... The local home improvement store has this stuff on sale.

It may be a safer choice than malathion.


Thanks.


J. Del Col

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:07:05 -0400 in Al wrote:
It is somewhat counter intuitive but there seems to be a number of chemicals
that we use as pesticides that stimulate fecundity and act to cause a
resurgence weeks or months after the application of either the target pest,
or other insects and/or their predator populations that just happened to be
in the way. I remember learning in Pest management class that the product

Call me a cynic, but this seems like an inspired way to sell more
pesticides...

Let's be honest, you're a PHB at a pesticide company, which would you
pick to market, the one that you apply once and you're done for the year,
or the one where you apply it once, it seems to resolve the problem,
and a few weeks later they are back stronger than ever...

--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

It has more to do with newer technology than with marketing.

There is nothing that can be used just once and be effective, and malathion
is as old as the hills.

Newer technologies require multiple treatments to kill everything, as does
malathion. The newer stuff is simply more effective.

If you really want to do it right and avoid the development of resistant
insect strains, go with IGR's - some of the newest technology.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"?" wrote in message
rg...
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:07:05 -0400 in
Al wrote:
It is somewhat counter intuitive but there seems to be a number of
chemicals
that we use as pesticides that stimulate fecundity and act to cause a
resurgence weeks or months after the application of either the target
pest,
or other insects and/or their predator populations that just happened to
be
in the way. I remember learning in Pest management class that the
product

Call me a cynic, but this seems like an inspired way to sell more
pesticides...

Let's be honest, you're a PHB at a pesticide company, which would you
pick to market, the one that you apply once and you're done for the year,
or the one where you apply it once, it seems to resolve the problem,
and a few weeks later they are back stronger than ever...

--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

A lot of the pesticides have both systemic and contact prosperities.
Although Mal and Sevin are basically used for their contact kills, both have
weak systemic prosperities. Orthene is most commonly used as a systemic but
also has a very good contact kill.

Imocloprid is another chemical that has both properties. When using it to
kill fungus gnat larvae, we are using Imocloprid's contact kill properties.
I have used it on fungus gnats with very mixed results, from almost no kill
to very terminal. Last spring I noticed I was having much better results
with it on propagation flats containing ProMix than I was having with it on
Phals in moss. I think the problem is that chemicals are leached out of
moss very quickly (If not leached out, at least moved out of the surface
(were the larvae are) to deeper in the pot). I have played with this idea a
bit and found if I can avoid watering for at least two weeks after an
Imocloprid application I get a much better kill.

In this thread Ray talks about using insect growth regulators. I have tried
some and had very poor results with them. I now think the problem may have
been that they too were being leached out of the surface of the mix before
they had a chance to really work. One of these days I will dust off the bag
of Adept and try it again with the plants only receiving light misting for a
couple of weeks after application.

Pat
"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked
down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Most Mal labels that I have seen give a range for use. I have had no
problems at the lower rate, but have 'blacken leaf margins' on tender
phal
leaves at the higher rate. Mal 57% EC calls for 1 to 2 teaspoons per
gallon
and I would use it at between 1 and 1.25 teaspoon per gallon in late
afternoon or on cloudy days. Check your label and see if it does not
give
a
range to use, I think 2 teaspoons might be a bit strong. BTW, Mal is no
longer labeled for greenhouse use.
Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news
I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins
from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from
an
old grower I know.

K Barrett

"jadel" wrote in message
oups.com...
How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion
package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

AN interesting observation, Pat.

The only IGR I have used is Enstar II, applied with a bit of soap to spread
the coverage, and even though I overhead water fairly frequently, I have
noticed great effectiveness.

It is my understanding that systemics are absorbed by the plant rapidly upon
contact, so leaching from the medium should not be a factor, but who knows
how that varies among chemicals and plants.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
A lot of the pesticides have both systemic and contact prosperities.
Although Mal and Sevin are basically used for their contact kills, both
have weak systemic prosperities. Orthene is most commonly used as a
systemic but also has a very good contact kill.

Imocloprid is another chemical that has both properties. When using it to
kill fungus gnat larvae, we are using Imocloprid's contact kill
properties. I have used it on fungus gnats with very mixed results, from
almost no kill to very terminal. Last spring I noticed I was having much
better results with it on propagation flats containing ProMix than I was
having with it on Phals in moss. I think the problem is that chemicals
are leached out of moss very quickly (If not leached out, at least moved
out of the surface (were the larvae are) to deeper in the pot). I have
played with this idea a bit and found if I can avoid watering for at least
two weeks after an Imocloprid application I get a much better kill.

In this thread Ray talks about using insect growth regulators. I have
tried some and had very poor results with them. I now think the problem
may have been that they too were being leached out of the surface of the
mix before they had a chance to really work. One of these days I will
dust off the bag of Adept and try it again with the plants only receiving
light misting for a couple of weeks after application.

Pat
"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young. Anyway, I've tried it and it sure knocked
down
a blooming fungus gnat problem, on the plants potted in sphagnum. I have
yet to see if it truly lasts 30 days.

K Barrett

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Most Mal labels that I have seen give a range for use. I have had no
problems at the lower rate, but have 'blacken leaf margins' on tender
phal
leaves at the higher rate. Mal 57% EC calls for 1 to 2 teaspoons per
gallon
and I would use it at between 1 and 1.25 teaspoon per gallon in late
afternoon or on cloudy days. Check your label and see if it does not
give
a
range to use, I think 2 teaspoons might be a bit strong. BTW, Mal is no
longer labeled for greenhouse use.
Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news I follow the directions for 'ornamentals'. I understand broughtonias &
their intergenerics can have black leaf spots or blacken leaf margins
from
malathione use. No scientific evidence for that, just an opinion from
an
old grower I know.

K Barrett

"jadel" wrote in message
oups.com...
How much 50% malathion per gal. of water is needed to treat for
scale
and other nasties on orchids? The directions on the malathion
package
are not specific about orchids, referring only to "ornamentals." I
think 2 teaspoons per gallon is what I want, but I am not sure.

Are there any orchid genera which will be harmed by malathion?


J. Del Col

Ray,

I think your understanding of systemics is correct. I do not have problems
with sucking pests, it is the damn fungus gnat larvae. They live in and
survive on the crud on the surface of the mix and only nibble on the roots
now and then. Because the plant is such a small part of the fungus gnat
larva's diet is why I said we are using Imocloprid's contact kill
properties. BTW, I talked to a Olympic rep about this and he recommended I
just apply Marathon II spritzes more often. But given our understanding of
systemics I was afraid I would get too much Imocloprid in the plant and
start seeing flower mutations and decided to limit myself to label
application frequency recommendations.

Now if I can only learn the difference between prosperities and properties.

Pat


properties
"Ray" wrote in message
...
AN interesting observation, Pat.

The only IGR I have used is Enstar II, applied with a bit of soap to
spread the coverage, and even though I overhead water fairly frequently, I
have noticed great effectiveness.

It is my understanding that systemics are absorbed by the plant rapidly
upon contact, so leaching from the medium should not be a factor, but who
knows how that varies among chemicals and plants.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!

BAYER Tree&Shrub insect control.
No Spraying

Contains 1.47% imidacloprid.

Imidacloprid is synthetic nicotine. Is a systemic, not a contact
killer. Aparently not as poisonus as real nicotine, which I think is
off the market.

Works very well on scale and mealybugs. Not much else does.

I cannot imagine spraying Malathion on the 2-300 orchids in my house,
and then churning the stuff through my heating system.

I had a huge infestation of scale & mealybugs on about 100-150 cats &
phals last winter. I mixed the recommended dosage of T&S in with my
monthly feedings. Took about 3 months to totally wipe the infestation
out.

I got reference to this from he

http://www.njorchids.org/articles/Mealybug/Mealybug.htm

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:18:19 -0700, "K Barrett"
wrote:

I read about an new (to me) product called Bayer Rose and Flower Insect
Killer that has Imocloprid and something called Clyfluthrin (sorry if I
spelled that wrong). Label says its a systemic and kills on contact.
Those seem to be counter intuitive to me, how can it do both? I always
thought an insecticide was one or the other.... ... I am assuming the
Clyfuthrin is the systemic/contact killer of adults while the imicloprid
affects newly hatched young.