That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.
"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most
of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at
least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least
substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the
heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from
one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the
attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the
ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the
fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a
moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course
the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90%
or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

"Al" wrote in message
...
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.

Now, although that may be gratifying, it isn't good. ;-)

Just think how boring life would be without all these little challenges that
come our way. ;-)

While we'd like to carry on toward our objectives without these little
challenges, we can use them to our advantage. Don't we tell young athletes
to grin and bear the aches and pains they get as a result of their extreme
physical activity since that builds character? That is, in fact, ancient
wisdom, and can be found, for example, in the Bible: trouble builds
endurance which builds character ... .

We all know what government is like, with civil servants who are usually
neither. Government does things on the cheap, so is rarely willing to pay
for adequately qualified personelle. Instead they go for the least
expensive personelle they can get away with.

Don't get mad at the people you're dealing with. Have pity on them, for
they're trying to do work they may not be adequately qualified to do, and
compensate for their lack of knowledge with a tyranical attitude. Doing
this, you won't have much effect on them, but you will reduce your own
stress levels and perhaps prevent yourself from getting an ulcer or
suffering some other stress related disease.

Cheers,

Ted

tennis maynard wrote:
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to

have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a
layer of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor.
Regardless of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?


I feel your pain Tennis. And I won't say "I told you so", although I
seem to recall that I did... *grin* After my run-in with the building
police, I've decided that it is far easier to beg forgiveness than ask
permission. At least for a greenhouse.

As to 50 degree earth. That is great if you are heating your greenhouse
to 50 degrees. Chances are good you will want it a bit warmer than
that. I've been reading a lot of underground house books (I want one!),
and it seems counterintuitive, but you still want to insulate your
floors. If your greenhouse is 65 degrees, and your floor is 50, you are
still going to lose heat (fairly quickly) to the large mass of the
earth. Insulation slows the process of heat transfer, and allows you to
keep your higher temperature longer.

At this point you are saying "Whah? Huh? Why use earth at all and bury
part or all of your house?". Well, remember, when the earth is 50
degrees, the air might be 100 or -30. It takes a lot less fuel to
maintain a 15 degree temperature differential than a 95 degree one.
That is why thermal mass is so important... The insulation slows down
heat transfer, and the thermal mass of the earth reduces the temperature
differential.

I think that the logic behind homes and greenhouses is slightly
different, however. Obviously we want as much sunlight as possible in a
greenhouse, and that really messes with a solar house (where you collect
as much light in the winter as possible, and exclude it in the summer).
So while the concept works in the winter, insulate the foundation so
we don't lose heat, it really fails in the summer. We want the
foundation cold, ice wouldn't be too cold in August... But, vents are
much cheaper to operate than furnaces, and a wet-wall or other cooling
system probably is too. Failing that and if you want to dig deep holes,
you could have your replacement air come through buried pipes. Hot air
leaves through the vents, cool air comes in through the buried pipes.
Cheap to operate, a bit more expensive to install.

And as a final thought (hah!) on the subject... All of this is great to
think about for a hobby greenhouse. We can spend a little more to build
a neat energy efficient design. And we might rationalize our extra
expense by thinking that we will keep that greenhouse for 20 or 30 years
and it will pay for itself eventually. It is substantially more
difficult to justify the extra upfront costs in a commercial greenhouse.
It can be done, and probably should be done, but just like government
work, the contract often goes to the low bidder.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Yes, I suppose. I just meant a gun is easier to get than almost anything
that requires a zoning board's approval. Fill out a form. Claim to be
emotional stable. Wait 24 hours and with one, you can do to property values
all the damage the zoning board is trying to prevent.

"Al" wrote in message
...
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.
"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even
from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in
the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of
the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite
the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had
planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother.
Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be
in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.

Al wrote:
That was a pretty mild rant considering it is a zoning board that you are
dealing with. You can get a gun with 24 hours notice.

Finally a helpful suggestion!

Al wrote:
Yes, I suppose. I just meant a gun is easier to get than almost anything
that requires a zoning board's approval. Fill out a form. Claim to be
emotional stable.

Uh, you may not know this never having met me in person, but that last
one might be a tough sell...

Rob wrote:
I've decided that it is far easier to beg forgiveness than ask
permission. At least for a greenhouse.

Uh, let's see, if I'm caught...triple fee..that's $750 instead of $250,
plus the variance request, now $780 instead of $260, and then if they
don't approve the variance, having to tear it down. Additionally the
permitting and inspecting for the water, gas, and electric that would be
done AFTER a permit. But if no permit, and I get caught, that's another
$900 plus any additional work that needs doing.

As to 50 degree earth. That is great if you are heating your greenhouse
to 50 degrees. Chances are good you will want it a bit warmer than
that.

Actually, 50' was my goal. I think that's warm enough for everything
including vandas, phals, and bulbos. You don't think so? I leave them
out til the temp hits that mark and they seem fine.

Tennis - whose roommate hit the roof at the mention of no greenhouse til
Spring. 'Where is all this s**t going?' (additional 50 square feet of
plants acquired this year, two evaporative coolers, vents, etc, etc...
We don't have a garage and the storage room (oops! growroom) is busy,
the other is full of pots and potting supplies...'I want these plants out!!'

Welcome to the club Tennis.
The building code folks don't seem to have any idea about energy
management. or they have an invested interest in the energy suppliers.
A local builder here tried to get a permit for a $250,000 earth sheltered
home but the building code folks called it a basement and code clearly says
you cant occupy a basement. You should see the tizzy that a geodesic dome
puts the building code folks in. Solar heat, forget it here, it is an
eyesore to the building code folks and is not allowed. God forbid if you
try to put up a wind generator. A greenhouse must have a 3.5 foot deep
foundation, my house foundation only goes down 2 feet. I put 4 inches of
foam on the greenhouse foundation walls while they weren't looking and
didn't tell them. I also used a few other tricks that don't show after I
finshed construction that saves energy.

Can do what to property values !!!! Don't get me started.
I knew what I was up against when I built my greenhouse because I built a
deck first yes it had to rest on a 3.5 foot footing. I spent $1500 building
the deck and they turn around and say it added $8000 to the value of my
home. That was back in the 1970 when my house was valued at $20,000

"Not all that glitters is gold. Half the story has never been told."

Trying to heat my first greenhouse (12' X 20') via solar was as big a hobby
for me as growing orchids. Although I learned a lot, not much was scaleable
to the 32' X 96' ones I run today. Before you start any solar projects you
need to run the numbers to see if it will be worth the effort. Key to these
calculations is the fact that one pound of water holds 1 BTU for each degree
F rise. (One of my current greenhouse can use over 2,000,000 BTUs in a not
so bad winter night.) After doing the calculations, if you are still
worried about painting the jugs black you should redo your calculations.
Although some jugs will see the light, most light coming into the greenhouse
will hit the plants and warm the air and the warmed air will heat the water.
Have good air flow around the water storage area.

While doing the calculation do not fall into the trap of calculating the
potential heat storage based on the greenhouse's daily high temperature. If
you are simply adding jugs of waters, their temperature will peak shortly
after the greenhouse temperature peaks and then release their heat during
the late afternoon trying to maintain the no furnace required temperature.
The greenhouse with water storage as compared to a greenhouse without the
water storage, will be cooler in the morning as part of the solar heat is
used to warm the water and warmer in the afternoon as the collected heat is
released. During the night, the water will just be part of the thermal mass
that warms and cools as the furnace cycles on and off. The heat cost saving
will be negligible.

That being said, I still think it is a good idea to add the water storage.
First it adds to the greenhouse's thermal mass which makes the greenhouse
temperatures a little more stable and buys you some time if the heating
system goes down. Second it reduces the number of heating cycles required
during the night, although each cycle will be longer. I think reducing the
number of cycles does provide some fuel savings for a couple of reasons
including furnace startup efficiency and less water evaporation/condensation
cycles and air warms and cools on each furnace cycle.

Talking about evaporation. Try to keep your water storage system dry to
prevent it from becoming a evaporative cooling system.

The system I ended with involved making my benches enclosed, insulated, and
filled with 2 liter bottles filled with water. The benches had a vent on
one end and a blower on the other. The blower would turn on when the
greenhouse air was warn enough and warmer than the bottle temp and would
also turn on when the bottles were warm enough and the heating set point was
reached. With this system, the vents rarely opened (not also such a good
thing) and I saved a few hours of heating every night (it provided maybe 20%
of the total heating required).

'And now you see the light.'

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
? wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob
wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least)
I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to
be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In
small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move
the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that
they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the
merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the
following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to try
it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face it we
gotta do something.

K Barrett

I agree, Pat, that solar has a steep learning curve. I was just reading
the latest Scientific American. A fellow from the Rocky Mountain
Institute has an article about how his house is all alternative energy
and how much he's saving, selling back to the industry, etc etc etc.

Yeah. Right.

The people I know here had tried 55 gal drums placed under the bench -
similar to what Bob Gordon suggests. With no great influence on their
heating costs. I expect to duplicate your experience, that the drums
will start putting their heat back into the GH in the afternoon and lose
their storage by dawn. I put the drums in on Sunday and the GH stayed at
60F instead of 58F...and we ain't even cold yet. (remember I'm in
California and we get a hard frost once every 10 years or so.)

As I write this I realize the cost of the water to fill the 3 55-gal
drums undoubtedly erased any savings I'll have on heating. *G* Here's
hoping you are right about reducing the number of cycles the heater
comes on.
K Barrett


Pat Brennan wrote:
"Not all that glitters is gold. Half the story has never been told."

Trying to heat my first greenhouse (12' X 20') via solar was as big a hobby
for me as growing orchids. Although I learned a lot, not much was scaleable
to the 32' X 96' ones I run today. Before you start any solar projects you
need to run the numbers to see if it will be worth the effort. Key to these
calculations is the fact that one pound of water holds 1 BTU for each degree
F rise. (One of my current greenhouse can use over 2,000,000 BTUs in a not
so bad winter night.) After doing the calculations, if you are still
worried about painting the jugs black you should redo your calculations.
Although some jugs will see the light, most light coming into the greenhouse
will hit the plants and warm the air and the warmed air will heat the water.
Have good air flow around the water storage area.

While doing the calculation do not fall into the trap of calculating the
potential heat storage based on the greenhouse's daily high temperature. If
you are simply adding jugs of waters, their temperature will peak shortly
after the greenhouse temperature peaks and then release their heat during
the late afternoon trying to maintain the no furnace required temperature.
The greenhouse with water storage as compared to a greenhouse without the
water storage, will be cooler in the morning as part of the solar heat is
used to warm the water and warmer in the afternoon as the collected heat is
released. During the night, the water will just be part of the thermal mass
that warms and cools as the furnace cycles on and off. The heat cost saving
will be negligible.

That being said, I still think it is a good idea to add the water storage.
First it adds to the greenhouse's thermal mass which makes the greenhouse
temperatures a little more stable and buys you some time if the heating
system goes down. Second it reduces the number of heating cycles required
during the night, although each cycle will be longer. I think reducing the
number of cycles does provide some fuel savings for a couple of reasons
including furnace startup efficiency and less water evaporation/condensation
cycles and air warms and cools on each furnace cycle.

Talking about evaporation. Try to keep your water storage system dry to
prevent it from becoming a evaporative cooling system.

The system I ended with involved making my benches enclosed, insulated, and
filled with 2 liter bottles filled with water. The benches had a vent on
one end and a blower on the other. The blower would turn on when the
greenhouse air was warn enough and warmer than the bottle temp and would
also turn on when the bottles were warm enough and the heating set point was
reached. With this system, the vents rarely opened (not also such a good
thing) and I saved a few hours of heating every night (it provided maybe 20%
of the total heating required).

'And now you see the light.'

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
...

? wrote:

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob
wrote:


I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least)
I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to
be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In
small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move
the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that
they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the
merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the
following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to try
it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face it we
gotta do something.

K Barrett