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Old 05-10-2005, 03:08 AM
angraecum_habit
 
Posts: n/a
Default Control Heating Costs This Winter?

Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori

  #2   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 05:09 AM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default

1) Fans on - always. No exception.
2) Make sure every little seam is well sealed.
3) Set the thermostat for the minimum temperature your plants can live
with.
4) Do NOT artificially heat the GH on gray days. Let solar heating do the
work when it can.
5) Add sheets of polyethylene film and inflate the space between the film
and your GH cover.
6) Paint the north wall of the GH white to reflect as much light as
possible into the structure.
7) Keep as much water in black containers as possible in the GH. They will
absorb solar heat and re-emit it into the environment.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori



  #3   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 09:31 AM
Bryan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori



  #4   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 03:20 PM
Rob
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bryan wrote:
Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.


Yes, it is possible with a smaller structure. It becomes increasingly
difficult with a bigger structure. It takes me two people and half an
hour to get the shade cloth on my greenhouse, another half hour to fold
it up, and I really don't want to do that every night. If you want to
go that route, try it a few times with a plastic tarp or shadecloth, to
get an idea of how much effort it will really take, and if you are
willing to spend that kind of time.

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...

For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents
with styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course
(I have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for
your greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are
rigid plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high
around the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard
frost. Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any
earlier and the mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes
yet. If your greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is
probably a RBI (really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle
the straw as garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap.

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of
heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I
might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to
appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.

Remember to consider how expensive your improvements will be, and
justify that by how expensive your heat is. A one dollar piece of
styrofoam that saves you 20 dollars of fuel is an excellent investment.
A two dollar bale of straw (that you can reuse as mulch) that saves
you even two or three dollars of fuel is an excellent investment. A
high capacity active solar heating system that costs you 10,000 dollars
might save you 500 dollars a year in fuel... That might not be such a
good investment (but it would be a neat thing, indeed).

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

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Old 05-10-2005, 05:02 PM
?
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil


  #6   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 05:15 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default

? wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote:

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an
excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for
simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them
under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or
(around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in
thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle
a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy
to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end
up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in
the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better...



I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured
I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has
used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California)
don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to
try it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face
it we gotta do something.

K Barrett
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Old 05-10-2005, 06:04 PM
Rob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following
idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective
in a green house environment.

With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating
and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids?
http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm

I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes,
and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with
anything I grow.

But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-).



Depends on what you mean by effective. You need to have an active
component to a solar hot water system to get real efficiency. Pumps,
heat exchangers... Passive heat transfer is slow. So you will never
be able to rely on jugs or barrels of water for your primary heating.
At least in a tropical greenhouse. It is possible to design such a
system, but it is fairly expensive (I consulted an engineer about the
possibility, and decided on waiting for a while...).

But, the upside to the slow heat transfer is just that, slow heat
transfer. If you have enough water mass in a structure, it will absorb
heat relatively quickly (slow from the air, but direct sunlight will
heat more quickly), and release heat slowly. This has pretty much the
same effect as a chemical buffer. It will take more heat to raise the
temperature of the greenouse, and more cold (technically more 'absence
of heat') to lower it.

Putting in a dark colored rock floor (slate is good) is another way to
capture heat and release it slowly. Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.

Practically, the air in the greenhouse will warm up much faster than the
water in the greenhouse, which makes relying on water to keep your
greenhouse cool suicide. You need vents for sunny days. And similarly,
relying on water to keep your greenhouse tropical requires a furnace of
some sort. But, water mass provides moderation, and you will require
less heat to warm the air to the right temperature, and less 'coolth' to
get it down. And if you have enough water mass in your greenhouse, if
the furnace goes out on a cold evening your greenhouse might not freeze,
or at least not freeze as fast. It might get darn cold... but warmer
than the surrounding air. Think of it as insulation you install on the
inside of the greenhouse. It won't do the job by itself, but the more
you have the better.

Of course that is just my opinion... To me, water is cheap and easy,
and helps me sleep at night.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

  #8   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 06:19 PM
Kenni Judd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I've seen a product called "winterizing cloth" (or something to that effect)
advertised in Orchids Magazine. It's a light foamy material, that you put
right over the plants on the benches ... Kenni

"Bryan" wrote in message
news:kjL0f.87971$oW2.22833@pd7tw1no...
Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night.


"angraecum_habit" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating
costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and
running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able
to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids
(too cold, too little light, etc.)

I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are
intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some
cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55
F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern
Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high
at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of
you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low
30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F.

What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan
positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the
inside?

Thanks in advance....

Lori





  #9   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 07:36 PM
Ted Byers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rob" wrote in message
...

I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent
idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've
just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches.
With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've
seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be
melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small
units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk
jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are
in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They
will absorb heat better...

An excellent idea, but likely most effective if the containers are painted
flat black, not glossy. Remember, if something looks bright, it is because
most of the light hitting it is reflected. If the object looks dark, it is
because most of the light hitting it is absorbed.

For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents with
styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course (I
have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for your
greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are rigid
plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high around
the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard frost.
Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any earlier and the
mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes yet. If your
greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is probably a RBI
(really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle the straw as
garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap.


I am up about as far north as you are, I think. There is a grower here who
told me on the weekend that during the winter, day time temperatures inside
his greenhouse can reach clost to 30 degrees Celcius (for our american
friends, that is about 80 degrees F), while the outside temperature was
about -20 degrees Celcius. He was amazed that he could see a 50 degree
Celcius difference between the temperature inside the greenhouse and that
outside. But I know he takes great care in the construction and operation
of his greenhouse since he produces top quality plants, and has his humidity
up high enough that he can usually revive plants his friends thought they'd
killed. He reports that once the sun goes down, his heaters begin to run
non-stop. I have not checked to see if he uses any of the passive heating
options available.

The calculation of how much passive heating is needed (defined in terms of
water volume) is simple, once one has data on the rate of heat loss through
the greenhouse roof and walls and the specific heat capacity of air and
water (IIRC, for water it is 1 Cal/g - I have no idea what it is for air).

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.

Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both
are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked
potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,

Ted


--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making


  #10   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 07:47 PM
Rob
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.


Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both
are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked
potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,


Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for multitasking...


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit



  #11   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 08:05 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Try clear plastic bulb wrap, placed inside the glass and taped around.
Great insulation, allows light to pass through and captures heat
Reusable next winter.
For heat one novel idea is composting, done right you can have no
smells, no insects (can use worms), and can generate heat. I saw it
done once in a green house, but it is probably on pratical for only a
few people.

  #12   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 09:00 PM
Kenni Judd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But
we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get
drenched every time we water ... Kenni

"Rob" wrote in message
...

Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat.
Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try
rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the
rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid.


Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that
both are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with
baked potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c.

Cheers,


Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for
multitasking...


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit


  #13   Report Post  
Old 05-10-2005, 09:57 PM
Ted Byers
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But
we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get
drenched every time we water ... Kenni

Hey, that is easy to fix. Just place a sheet of plastic over the rabbits'
cages. That would shelter them from the water you're using. A more
difficult problem would be kids who get too attached to the cute little
bunnies to allow them to be used for food and for their fur. I'd probably
just avoid the issue until the kids are old enough to understand.

Cheers,

Ted


--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making


  #14   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2005, 06:13 AM
tennis maynard
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise
most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad
idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at
least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with
the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of
polycarb as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40?
- and can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or
even from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor
in the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out
of the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house -
despite the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact.
Had planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to
bother. Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will
probably be in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside
humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes
2-3 months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start
building in late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.
  #15   Report Post  
Old 06-10-2005, 11:07 AM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Your first mistake, Tennis, was applying for a permit...

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"tennis maynard" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to
have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most
of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new
greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer
of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless
of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that.


If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their
heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the
styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground.
At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at
least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost
line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least
substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the
heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob?

The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb
as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and
can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from
one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the
attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the
ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the
fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a
moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course
the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90%
or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here.

And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about
open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you
have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind
it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I
don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my
current back yard. Go figure.

So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3
months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in
late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then!

Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist
USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not
'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have
neither now.

Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating.



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