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Old 29-10-2005, 06:44 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Ted Byers wrote:
"Ray" wrote in message
...

Ted,

Even though they were once lumped into a single genus, tolumnia and
oncidiums are quite different in their natural cultural conditions.


Out of curiosity, how similar are they morphologically? I did a search for
pictures of Tolumnia using google, but the links I have pursued so far have
only shown images of the flowers, which look much like the flowers of the
Oncidiums I have seen.


If I recall correctly (I may be overgeneralizing, but you'll get the point
anyway), tolumnias typically populate spindly branches of shrubs on the
windward side of Caribbean islands and nearby mainland locales. As such,
they are bathed in constant breezes and dry out almost instantly after
rains. Many oncidiums, on the other hand, and more typically
"jungle-based," with the overall wetter conditions seen there.


Do they have the adaptations one would usually expect in plants living in a
relatively arid environment, such as fleshy leaves, perhaps proportionately
larger pseudobulbs than the Oncidiums, roots that are better designed
against dessication than one would expect from a rainforest epiphyte?

I have never actually seen a Tolumnia in the flesh.


Every attempt I have made to grow tolumnias in true S/H conditions has
failed, which I rationalize by thinking about the vast dissimilarity of
that root climate to that of the twigs. On the other hand, every
pseudobulbed oncidium I've tried - Sharry Baby, a couple of species, and
any big yellow "dancing doll" included - has thrived.


Given what you have said about their natural environment, I would be
astonished if they were found by someone to thrive in semihydro. If there
are people who succeed in growing them in semihydro, what is the reason?
Are they doing it in an environment that has much drier air, and thus much
greater evaporative demand? If so, I could see that demand drying the air
in the pores within the media, while the water in the pellets supplies
sufficient water for the plant to meet that demand. If that is right, I
could see the plant growing faster than normal since plant production is
often correlated with evapotranspiration rates (at least in crop plants I've
studied - I don't know how well that empirical relationship applies to
orchids, if at all).


My statement that I have the ascocentrums in clay pots of PrimeAgra was
meant to point out that PrimeAgra can be used as a non-S/H growing medium.
I did not say they were in S/H. But let me throw some more confusion into
the fray: I would not recommend ascofinetia be grown in S/H, even though
some folks are good at it, but I am successfully growing Neofinetia
falcata that way.


OK, I misunderstood you there.

If Neofinetia does well in semihydro, but Ascofinetia does not, should that
be taken to mean that Ascocentrum does not particularly like semihydro, and
has passed that trait on to Ascofinetia? If not, what is the reason you
wouldn't recommend semihydro for Acsofinetia even though some succeed with
it?

And here is a question about semihydro that is completely unrelated to
orchids, unless there are orchids used as herbs in some cuisine with which I
am completely unfamiliar. My neice is training to be a chef, and I thus
tried to get her started in growing her own herbs, but to no avail. She
must have thumbs even blacker than her mother and aunts, who can even kill
plastic plants. ;-) The question is, if we have some seeds for a number
of herbs, how can we get them germiinated and then growing in semihydro. My
hope is that if we can get them growing in semihydro, she will be able to
maintain them by simply restoring the initial water level in the reservoir
when that drops by a centimetre or two. She is one that often forgets to
water her plants, and so they usually die from dessication! Of course,
seedlings are much more vulnerable to her than a relatively mature plant,
but even they die from dessication eventually. I'd like to try to make
taking care of plants as easy as possible, to improve her chances of keeping
the herbs healthy enough to use in her outstanding cooking. It is amazing
to me that such an outstanding chef could be so severely challenged when it
comes to keeping plants healthy!

Cheers,

Ted


Now that would be a fun thing to try... put a few herbs in s/h and see
what happens... I wonder about the hard woody varieties vs the soft
plants (like thyme vs basil for example) Come to think of it, I think
most herbs get a better taste from hard rocky growing conditions... but
that may be just another myth.
I'll bet if you started growing seedlings standing in water then
transferred them to s/h you'd get a better survival rate... in order to
allow for morphologic root changes between the culture methods.

K Barrett

  #17   Report Post  
Old 29-10-2005, 08:12 PM
Ted Byers
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Ted Byers wrote:
Now that would be a fun thing to try... put a few herbs in s/h and see
what happens... I wonder about the hard woody varieties vs the soft
plants (like thyme vs basil for example) Come to think of it, I think
most herbs get a better taste from hard rocky growing conditions... but
that may be just another myth.


There's one way to find out, but alas, I don't have suitable space. Oh how
I long for a greenhouse! :-(
A much bigger kitchen with a much MUCH bigger window would be terrific too!

I think that in principle any plant could be grown in semihydro, but expect
that in practice there are a few that would either need special treatment or
simply would not take to it.

I'll bet if you started growing seedlings standing in water then
transferred them to s/h you'd get a better survival rate... in order to
allow for morphologic root changes between the culture methods.

I've not tried starting seedlings in standing water. Just how do you get
seeds germinated in standing water? What would you suggest doing to secure
the plants in their pots once you transfer them to semihydro?

I was thinking of starting the seeds in a rehydrated peat plug, and then the
mightmare of separating the peat from the roots of the seedling without
damaging the roots, and THEN getting them into semihydro and trying to
figure out how to secure them in place.

I wonder if I could make a gel, using R/O water with my usual fertilizer,
and something to make the gel set at room temperature, and get the seeds
germinated on that. Then, the "slab" of gel that is populated with newly
emerged seedlings could be placed on the top of a pot with something like
PrimeAgra, so the seedlings' roots could grow down into the pot and secure
the plants within the pot. Hopefully the plants would be well established
in the pots before the gel has been completely dissolved as the plants get
extra water. What do you think?

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making


  #18   Report Post  
Old 29-10-2005, 11:41 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Ted Byers wrote:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

Ted Byers wrote:
Now that would be a fun thing to try... put a few herbs in s/h and see
what happens... I wonder about the hard woody varieties vs the soft
plants (like thyme vs basil for example) Come to think of it, I think
most herbs get a better taste from hard rocky growing conditions... but
that may be just another myth.



There's one way to find out, but alas, I don't have suitable space. Oh how
I long for a greenhouse! :-(
A much bigger kitchen with a much MUCH bigger window would be terrific too!

I think that in principle any plant could be grown in semihydro, but expect
that in practice there are a few that would either need special treatment or
simply would not take to it.


I'll bet if you started growing seedlings standing in water then
transferred them to s/h you'd get a better survival rate... in order to
allow for morphologic root changes between the culture methods.


I've not tried starting seedlings in standing water. Just how do you get
seeds germinated in standing water? What would you suggest doing to secure
the plants in their pots once you transfer them to semihydro?

I was thinking of starting the seeds in a rehydrated peat plug, and then the
mightmare of separating the peat from the roots of the seedling without
damaging the roots, and THEN getting them into semihydro and trying to
figure out how to secure them in place.

I wonder if I could make a gel, using R/O water with my usual fertilizer,
and something to make the gel set at room temperature, and get the seeds
germinated on that. Then, the "slab" of gel that is populated with newly
emerged seedlings could be placed on the top of a pot with something like
PrimeAgra, so the seedlings' roots could grow down into the pot and secure
the plants within the pot. Hopefully the plants would be well established
in the pots before the gel has been completely dissolved as the plants get
extra water. What do you think?

Cheers,

Ted

Nono, I meant seedlings like those in a 6pack.

I college we tried germinating seed standing in water placed amongst the
folds of a papertowel.... I never had success with that, but that's all
I can come up with.

K
  #19   Report Post  
Old 29-10-2005, 11:49 PM
Phalguy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Hello!

How about on a piece of oasis ( that green foam used in flower arrangement )
?


Claude

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
| Ted Byers wrote:
| "K Barrett" wrote in message
| . ..
|
| Ted Byers wrote:
| Now that would be a fun thing to try... put a few herbs in s/h and see
| what happens... I wonder about the hard woody varieties vs the soft
| plants (like thyme vs basil for example) Come to think of it, I think
| most herbs get a better taste from hard rocky growing conditions... but
| that may be just another myth.
|
|
| There's one way to find out, but alas, I don't have suitable space. Oh
how
| I long for a greenhouse! :-(
| A much bigger kitchen with a much MUCH bigger window would be terrific
too!
|
| I think that in principle any plant could be grown in semihydro, but
expect
| that in practice there are a few that would either need special
treatment or
| simply would not take to it.
|
|
| I'll bet if you started growing seedlings standing in water then
| transferred them to s/h you'd get a better survival rate... in order to
| allow for morphologic root changes between the culture methods.
|
|
| I've not tried starting seedlings in standing water. Just how do you
get
| seeds germinated in standing water? What would you suggest doing to
secure
| the plants in their pots once you transfer them to semihydro?
|
| I was thinking of starting the seeds in a rehydrated peat plug, and then
the
| mightmare of separating the peat from the roots of the seedling without
| damaging the roots, and THEN getting them into semihydro and trying to
| figure out how to secure them in place.
|
| I wonder if I could make a gel, using R/O water with my usual
fertilizer,
| and something to make the gel set at room temperature, and get the seeds
| germinated on that. Then, the "slab" of gel that is populated with
newly
| emerged seedlings could be placed on the top of a pot with something
like
| PrimeAgra, so the seedlings' roots could grow down into the pot and
secure
| the plants within the pot. Hopefully the plants would be well
established
| in the pots before the gel has been completely dissolved as the plants
get
| extra water. What do you think?
|
| Cheers,
|
| Ted
|
| Nono, I meant seedlings like those in a 6pack.
|
| I college we tried germinating seed standing in water placed amongst the
| folds of a papertowel.... I never had success with that, but that's all
| I can come up with.
|
| K


  #20   Report Post  
Old 30-10-2005, 12:14 AM
OrchidKitty
 
Posts: n/a
Default Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Hum.... I have Ascofinetia 'Peaches' x Vanda Cristata in S/H culture as
well as Neofinetia falcata. I'm giving them the full-up S/H treatment.
Both plants are doing well, but after several years, neither have
bloomed for me.

A local expert has suggested that the Neofinetia was not getting
sufficient autumn cooling, but it did so this year, so we'll see. It's
a runty little plant but seems to be thriving in S/H.

It has been my experience that Vandas and Vanda crosses are just not
happy in my growing conditions, regardless of media, and I would have
given away the Ascofinetia/Vanda cross to a friend with a greenhouse
who certainly could have coaxed the little sucker to bloom, but I'm
determined to give it just one more year.

Say what you will, but growing orchids has taught me more about
patience, optimism, and resignation than any other life experience.



  #21   Report Post  
Old 30-10-2005, 03:55 PM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Ted,

Tolumnias, formerly known as equitant oncidiums, typically have no
pseudobulbs (or if they do, they are quite diminutive), and have "fans" of
fleshy leaves that closely overlap (the definition of "equitant") at the
base. They are somewhat fleshy and typically triangular in cross-section,
with the sides a bit concave, and it seems to be the degree of concavity
that varies with water storage.

As to the herbs in S/H, they do great! I have tried sowing seeds right in
the medium with mixed success, so instead, I sow them in ProMix and
transplant them once they are up and growing. I have also had success
sowing the seeds between layers of moist paper towels and transplant them
once they're germinated and have roots.
--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Ted Byers" wrote in message
...

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Ted,

Even though they were once lumped into a single genus, tolumnia and
oncidiums are quite different in their natural cultural conditions.

Out of curiosity, how similar are they morphologically? I did a search
for pictures of Tolumnia using google, but the links I have pursued so far
have only shown images of the flowers, which look much like the flowers of
the Oncidiums I have seen.

If I recall correctly (I may be overgeneralizing, but you'll get the
point anyway), tolumnias typically populate spindly branches of shrubs on
the windward side of Caribbean islands and nearby mainland locales. As
such, they are bathed in constant breezes and dry out almost instantly
after rains. Many oncidiums, on the other hand, and more typically
"jungle-based," with the overall wetter conditions seen there.

Do they have the adaptations one would usually expect in plants living in
a relatively arid environment, such as fleshy leaves, perhaps
proportionately larger pseudobulbs than the Oncidiums, roots that are
better designed against dessication than one would expect from a
rainforest epiphyte?

I have never actually seen a Tolumnia in the flesh.

Every attempt I have made to grow tolumnias in true S/H conditions has
failed, which I rationalize by thinking about the vast dissimilarity of
that root climate to that of the twigs. On the other hand, every
pseudobulbed oncidium I've tried - Sharry Baby, a couple of species, and
any big yellow "dancing doll" included - has thrived.

Given what you have said about their natural environment, I would be
astonished if they were found by someone to thrive in semihydro. If there
are people who succeed in growing them in semihydro, what is the reason?
Are they doing it in an environment that has much drier air, and thus much
greater evaporative demand? If so, I could see that demand drying the air
in the pores within the media, while the water in the pellets supplies
sufficient water for the plant to meet that demand. If that is right, I
could see the plant growing faster than normal since plant production is
often correlated with evapotranspiration rates (at least in crop plants
I've studied - I don't know how well that empirical relationship applies
to orchids, if at all).

My statement that I have the ascocentrums in clay pots of PrimeAgra was
meant to point out that PrimeAgra can be used as a non-S/H growing
medium. I did not say they were in S/H. But let me throw some more
confusion into the fray: I would not recommend ascofinetia be grown in
S/H, even though some folks are good at it, but I am successfully growing
Neofinetia falcata that way.

OK, I misunderstood you there.

If Neofinetia does well in semihydro, but Ascofinetia does not, should
that be taken to mean that Ascocentrum does not particularly like
semihydro, and has passed that trait on to Ascofinetia? If not, what is
the reason you wouldn't recommend semihydro for Acsofinetia even though
some succeed with it?

And here is a question about semihydro that is completely unrelated to
orchids, unless there are orchids used as herbs in some cuisine with which
I am completely unfamiliar. My neice is training to be a chef, and I thus
tried to get her started in growing her own herbs, but to no avail. She
must have thumbs even blacker than her mother and aunts, who can even kill
plastic plants. ;-) The question is, if we have some seeds for a
number of herbs, how can we get them germiinated and then growing in
semihydro. My hope is that if we can get them growing in semihydro, she
will be able to maintain them by simply restoring the initial water level
in the reservoir when that drops by a centimetre or two. She is one that
often forgets to water her plants, and so they usually die from
dessication! Of course, seedlings are much more vulnerable to her than a
relatively mature plant, but even they die from dessication eventually.
I'd like to try to make taking care of plants as easy as possible, to
improve her chances of keeping the herbs healthy enough to use in her
outstanding cooking. It is amazing to me that such an outstanding chef
could be so severely challenged when it comes to keeping plants healthy!

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making



  #22   Report Post  
Old 30-10-2005, 03:59 PM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

Interesting idea, Claude. I know that Oasis makes germinating cells for
that, so a 1" cube with a hole poke down in the top would be fine.

Another alternative is simply a shallow dish of perlite with the fertilizer
solution soaked in it, although I'm intrigued by the gel concept Ted
mentioned. Obviously agar would be good as a gelling agent, but would corn
starch or arrow root work, as well?

Aaron - are you monitoring this? What do you think about starches as
gelling additives?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Phalguy" wrote in message
...
Hello!

How about on a piece of oasis ( that green foam used in flower
arrangement )
?


Claude

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
| Ted Byers wrote:
| "K Barrett" wrote in message
| . ..
|
| Ted Byers wrote:
| Now that would be a fun thing to try... put a few herbs in s/h and see
| what happens... I wonder about the hard woody varieties vs the soft
| plants (like thyme vs basil for example) Come to think of it, I think
| most herbs get a better taste from hard rocky growing conditions...
but
| that may be just another myth.
|
|
| There's one way to find out, but alas, I don't have suitable space.
Oh
how
| I long for a greenhouse! :-(
| A much bigger kitchen with a much MUCH bigger window would be terrific
too!
|
| I think that in principle any plant could be grown in semihydro, but
expect
| that in practice there are a few that would either need special
treatment or
| simply would not take to it.
|
|
| I'll bet if you started growing seedlings standing in water then
| transferred them to s/h you'd get a better survival rate... in order
to
| allow for morphologic root changes between the culture methods.
|
|
| I've not tried starting seedlings in standing water. Just how do you
get
| seeds germinated in standing water? What would you suggest doing to
secure
| the plants in their pots once you transfer them to semihydro?
|
| I was thinking of starting the seeds in a rehydrated peat plug, and
then
the
| mightmare of separating the peat from the roots of the seedling
without
| damaging the roots, and THEN getting them into semihydro and trying to
| figure out how to secure them in place.
|
| I wonder if I could make a gel, using R/O water with my usual
fertilizer,
| and something to make the gel set at room temperature, and get the
seeds
| germinated on that. Then, the "slab" of gel that is populated with
newly
| emerged seedlings could be placed on the top of a pot with something
like
| PrimeAgra, so the seedlings' roots could grow down into the pot and
secure
| the plants within the pot. Hopefully the plants would be well
established
| in the pots before the gel has been completely dissolved as the plants
get
| extra water. What do you think?
|
| Cheers,
|
| Ted
|
| Nono, I meant seedlings like those in a 6pack.
|
| I college we tried germinating seed standing in water placed amongst the
| folds of a papertowel.... I never had success with that, but that's all
| I can come up with.
|
| K




  #23   Report Post  
Old 30-10-2005, 04:58 PM
?
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:59:56 -0500 in Ray wrote:

Another alternative is simply a shallow dish of perlite with the fertilizer
solution soaked in it, although I'm intrigued by the gel concept Ted
mentioned. Obviously agar would be good as a gelling agent, but would corn
starch or arrow root work, as well?


For direct sowing into SH , basil was entirely too successful. Probably
because the seeds get covered in gel when wetted.
I wonder if the fibre one gets from flax seeds would work as a gelling
agent for direct sowing into SH for other seeds. I do know it seems
to improve my germination rates for wheat grass.


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil
  #24   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2005, 09:43 PM
Aaron Hicks
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'

What do _I_ think of it? Hell if I know.

You could start them in superabsorbent polymers (polyacrylamide or
polyacrylate), but they might be a little phytotoxic; I dunno. Or just
start them in Mason jars with some cheesecloth over the mouth. Rinse once
or twice a day with water, same as starting bean sprouts.

Norman Deno starts just about all of his seeds in ZipLoc plastic
bags, puffed up like pillows with some moist paper towels stuffed inside.
He's written three books on seed germination, and that works well enough
for him!

The address in the header is bogus. So is most of the rest of the
information I give out. Welcome to the Internet.

Cheers,

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


  #25   Report Post  
Old 02-11-2005, 01:53 AM
bobc
 
Posts: n/a
Default Herbs was Oncidium/Tulumnia Kitty Crocker 'Rose Giant'


What about rockwool? Wouldn't that give you somplace to put the seeds
and also the roots would grow out of it into the s/h?
I've never worked with rockwool, but have seen on the aquatic plant I
buy.
Bob Campoli - Philadelphia, Pa - forgot to mention the Soph. cernua
which is also blooming it's little hearts out :-) - It's another good
windowsill plant



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Old 15-10-2011, 01:50 PM
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