On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:59:16 -0500 in Al wrote:
With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened. I
don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your hypothetical
example suggests it is done.

I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of by
accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and shouldn't
have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have always kind of
believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one of their native
plants had made it into the US to be described by a US authority and that
until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind of gray area in it that
would allow undescribed material to be exported so easily. It has always
seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area and not at all doing what
you describe below as smuggling. But my assumptions are probably too
simplified.

He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done when
this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in their
lap?

Get someone else to bring in the plant material and be the person
the government deems to take care of the confiscated plant material?

For our paper writer, are your studies also covering the law
of unintended consequences?
--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

I just picked up the Book Orchid Fever from my library and will be
taking a look at it today. The paper is unlike something I have ever
done in University before. We are supposed to take information from the
least informal spaces and sources as possible. I've been searching
threw the Orchid Guide Digest and found some interesting things about
Pepe and Norris. I think i'm going to write the paper outlining
evidence from both sides...i will report what the dop says, but also
what the orchid community says...i'll post the paper up when im done so
you can take a look..it you're interested! thanks again
jamie

I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray area
where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species. What did
he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the way to
Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits the big
blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species. I don't
know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present his new find
to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to Shelby because Shelby
was the botany department he knew of that could do the work.

Your example is one way plants are smuggled, for sure. No names are needed.
I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It is
clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just new to
me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I bought
Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa and when
it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No, I think I'll
keep for all those times I bought something rare (not necessarily from this
man) and got Phal equestris instead.


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
I knew I'd confuse the issue by mentioning kovachii or any names at all.
I'm sorry I ever answered the original question. My answer was in regard
to HOW orchids could be smuggled using a CODE. Not about kovachii or
anything/anyone else. Substitute X and Y for plant names if you prefer.

K

Al wrote:
With kovachii, I am still a bit confused as to the order it all happened.
I don't think he was intentionally smuggling in the manner your
hypothetical example suggests it is done.

I have always assumed he had the correct specialized permits to
import/export already classified Phrags and that he broke the law kind of
by accident because it was an undescribed piece of plant material and
shouldn't have left Peru, no matter what kind of permit he had. I have
always kind of believed that the issue started when Peru discovered one
of their native plants had made it into the US to be described by a US
authority and that until then, nobody realized the treaty had this kind
of gray area in it that would allow undescribed material to be exported
so easily. It has always seemed to me that he was in a kind of gray area
and not at all doing what you describe below as smuggling. But my
assumptions are probably too simplified.

He and Selby broke the law, (as decided by the outcome of the court case)
but what should they have done differently? What would have been the
correct course of action for an American plant collector in Peru to take
after discovering a new species of Phrag? What should Selby have done
when this unimaginably serendipitous piece of plant material dropped in
their lap?

K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

jamiemtl wrote:

ok - so im now fascinated with Silva's and Norris' case. Apparently
they would get fake permits for legal orchids, then ship illegal ones
with these legit permits? It said on the US department of agriculture's
website that they even devised a code to determine what these orchids
were? Does anyone have any further information?


That's why I said this could become a life's work. Its a great story.

To answer your question about how this is done.

If you were to go to any orchid show you'd see orchids for sale, and
mostly they are out of bloom. Yous see just a mass of green plant
stuffs.

One out of bloom orchid plant - for the most part - looks like any other
orchid plant of the same variety. The way we tell them apart is by the
tag the vendor puts on the plant. For ease in labelling, vendors will
label their plants by number and have a master list as to what all the
numbers mean. Then when they get to where ever they are going they'll
put a better tag on the plant. So you'll see plants tagged '1167 Soph
cernua' and some just '1167' and you as teh purchaser have to know/ask
what '1167' is. Pretty much this is standard operating procedure, but to
a customs agent or a reporter looking for a story it could look like a
"code".

Nevertheless, the key to the crime is that one orchid looks pretty much
like another of the same variety when its out of bloom.

So, your cohort (in the country of origin) writes up a bunch of paperwork
saying you two are importing an easy to get plant like Phragmipedium
schlimii (an example only). He gets CITES & USFWS (endangered species)
permits to import Phrag schlimii. The paperwork says item #123 is Phrag
schlimii. But really item #123 is rare, sexy Phrag kovachii (an example
only), a plant people would kill for. The customs agents look over his
shipment, sees that a bunch of Phrags are coming in, but they really have
no idea WHAT they are because one out of bloom phrag looks pretty much
like another. You pick up the plants at the customs house. Your cohort
has emailed you the real list, stating #123 is kovachii. Bada bing!
You're in the money. You contact your friends who you know will want
the plants no matter what the cost, and you laugh all the way to the
bank. Unless you are George Norris, who - according the the feds - never
deleted his email or cleaned his hard drive and they found the trail.
Then you wind up in prison. Note: George wasn't busted for Phrag.
kovachii, Selby Gardens and Michael Kovach were, I just used those
species as an example.

I could go on, but its your homework, LOL!!

If you can figure out the OGD's search feature you should be able to find
Norris's own post about how the feds treated him when they served their
search warrant. I thought it was chilling.

You may also be able to find an account of how Eurpoean vendors filled
the back of a pick up truck with illegally collected Phrag kovachiis to
sell in Europe. I guess their customs agents are even worse than ours at
plant identification _ I'm kidding the story is more convoluted than
that, but there's only so much I can write at one time.

K Barrett

On 16 Nov 2005 09:16:16 -0800 in . com jamiemtl wrote:
I just picked up the Book Orchid Fever from my library and will be
taking a look at it today. The paper is unlike something I have ever
done in University before. We are supposed to take information from the
least informal spaces and sources as possible. I've been searching
threw the Orchid Guide Digest and found some interesting things about
Pepe and Norris. I think i'm going to write the paper outlining
evidence from both sides...i will report what the dop says, but also
what the orchid community says...i'll post the paper up when im done so
you can take a look..it you're interested! thanks again

You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

ok - so after searching through orchid digest and other forums it
appears that people in the Orchid Community think that anti-smuggling
laws are garbage. There has been a hidden undertone as to the
"political reasons" for the ban and trade or orchids. Any hint as to
what these are??

In article ,
says...
I understood that. I was not confused. I still have always wondered how
Kovach went wrong. Was he intentionally smuggling or was he in a gray area
where procedures were unclear. An unidentified new Phrag species. What did
he declare it was on his permits that allowed it to pass all the way to
Shelby and published as newly discovered before the doo-doo hits the big
blowing air machine? I am certain he knew he had a new species. I don't
know how the permits work on this level. Why didn't he present his new find
to Peruvian botanists? I always figured he took it to Shelby because Shelby
was the botany department he knew of that could do the work.
Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

In article ,
says...

You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.
I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

Reka wrote:
In article ,
says...


You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.

I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?

No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
for phrag seeds.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

I hate when that happens. I once got a batch of "A. miniatum" that turned
out to include a couple of what I later figured out to be Sarcoglyphus (sp?)
mirabilis. Worst part is I'd order more of the latter, except the seller
obviously doesn't know the difference, and so would probably send another
load of miniatum .... I also see a very high percentage of mislabelled
Schomburgkia. --
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids



I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It
is clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just
new to me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I
bought Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa
and when it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No, I
think I'll keep for all those times I bought something rare (not
necessarily from this man) and got Phal equestris instead.

Reka wrote:
In article ,
says...


You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.

I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?

NO, CITES specifically includes "any part thereof", and in fact this is
the single most damning part of the whole thing. The failure to exclude
plants from this clause written for animals (which usually have to be
killed to obtain 'any part thereof') creates a pact which achieves the
reverse of it's supposed purpose, conservation (yes, it's a trade
treaty, but the purpose was in fact conservation). With plants, if you
exempt the parts, that is, seeds, seed capsules, and pollen, you are
able to artificially propagate them and thereby reduce the pressure on
collection of species in habitat. By failing to exclude them from this
clause, a situation has been created wherein the habitats are stripped
by collecting (yes, be it illegal or not) and many plants are so
'protected' they are 'imprisoned' in habitat as roads, farms, and
airstrips are built over them.

As to the the Kovachii episode, throw out everything you were thinking
about law, smuggling, and CITES. It was a case of personalities and
pride. No institution such as Selby had ever been expected to be
responsible for the actions of collectors. Their job is to classify,
which is a scientific endeavor of benefit to all humanity. It creates a
dampening effect on science in any area when they are also expoected to
be policemen. The peruvian authorities and those in the US were alerted
and prodded into action by someone else working on describing the plant
who was outdone by the earlier publishing of the name kovachii. Their
plan had been to be name it 'peruvianum', which is where the peruvian
authorities got their dander up, Until then they were perfectly happy to
let the plants just be farmed over (which is what ended up happening
anyway).

Michael Kovach did in fact have a legal arrangement to import plants as
that was his business. His contention that as the plant had not been
identified it could not technically be subject to CITES as an appendix 1
plant is not entirely without merit (if you'll speak to lawyers or
people who write such treaties they will tell you it's all about
technicalities). And in fact he was charged with the importation of only
one plant, for identification purposes at Selby. No one had ever been
subject to any kind of penalty before for moving one specimen for
identification.

Orchid Fever has it right. It's all about the people involved.

This is where I am confused and this is what I mean.

I assume he had the correct import permits for Phrag species from the US
CITIES officials when he left the country to go to Peru. He is a plant
collector.

I assume, when he goes to leave Peru, he obtained permission to export the
plants he collected from a CITIES official there.

I believe he knew he had a new species of Phrag.

So how does the paper work read? Did he write "Phrag sp. unidentified" which
might allow the export and import officials checking paperwork against
plants in a box to read it as being one of the species on the list he had
authority to import/export?

Did he mean to obfuscate the newness of the species *if* he wrote this
and/or did the officials make assumptions that did not include the
possibility it was new? Did he lie on the form and claim it was something
he knew it wasn't: "Phrag schlimii"

Did he know his authority to import/export Phrags did *not* include
undescribed new species in this genus?

Did the lower level permit checking and issuing officials on both sides of
the border know what to do if they had a NEW species from a CITES appendix
two protected genus passing by them? How often does that happen?

I have always just been curious. Is this a gray area or should somebody
have known to stop the plants from leaving Peru or coming into the country.
Or did he HIDE the newness of the Phrag in order to get it into the country?

Al

And, esoterically messing with your mind: If it's an unidentified new
species, how can it be considered a Phrag at all?

Reka" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,

Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

I shall have to check into this genus and see if this is what I got.

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
I hate when that happens. I once got a batch of "A. miniatum" that turned
out to include a couple of what I later figured out to be Sarcoglyphus
(sp?) mirabilis. Worst part is I'd order more of the latter, except the
seller obviously doesn't know the difference, and so would probably send
another load of miniatum .... I also see a very high percentage of
mislabelled Schomburgkia. --
Kenni Judd
Juno Beach Orchids



I sometimes buy recently imported plants from American companies all the
time and get unbloomed orchids that bloom out to be other than what they
were sold to me as. I have something that came in labeled as Asctm
curvifolium and blooms out to be the weirdest little thing. In two
flowering now I have been unable to identify it. I don't have a good
picture of it yet. The flowers are pin-head sized brown and yellow. It
is clearly an orchid of some kind, and probably not new to science, just
new to me. I have received some rather rare Phal minus this way too. I
bought Phal gibbosa from a man who thought he was selling me Phal gibbosa
and when it bloomed and I asked him what it was, he wanted it back. No,
I think I'll keep for all those times I bought something rare (not
necessarily from this man) and got Phal equestris instead.

In article , says...
Reka wrote:
In article ,
says...


You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.

I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?

No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
for phrag seeds.


Oh, so it's been modified SINCE Kovach?
--
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

In article ,
says...
In article , says...
Reka wrote:
In article ,
says...


You might also want to talk with folks that have done seed smuggling
for seed banks.

I thought seeds were exempt from CITES, or are you just talking about
general smuggling of plant material into the States?

No plant or animal parts are exempt from CITES if the plant or animal is
regulated by CITES. And no, that doesn't necessarily have to make
sense. Makes a lot of sense for tiger testicles, but not so much sense
for phrag seeds.


Oh, so it's been modified SINCE Kovach?
--

Wait, I guess that is just NOT-Appendix I orchids.
--
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

PS. See, I am under the impression you can import, with the correct
permits, plant material on CITES Appendix 1 list if they are certified to be
nursery grown. The lore I understand about this case is that he bought the
plants from a local plant stand in the mountains of Peru. Nursery. Plant
Stand, hummm..... To me this means some Peruvian CITES permit issuing
official had to certify that the vendor in the mountains actually produced
these plants in their nursery...and everybody concerned had to believe this
was true....

I still would like to learn the coarse of events and how they traveled from
there to Shelby without being stopped. But probably not enough to go back
and wade through the volume of information posted on orchid boards and lists
that this topic has produced. So I don't really expect an answer. I am
just avoiding work today....

"Al" wrote in message
...
This is where I am confused and this is what I mean.

I assume he had the correct import permits for Phrag species from the US
CITIES officials when he left the country to go to Peru. He is a plant
collector.

I assume, when he goes to leave Peru, he obtained permission to export the
plants he collected from a CITIES official there.

I believe he knew he had a new species of Phrag.

So how does the paper work read? Did he write "Phrag sp. unidentified"
which might allow the export and import officials checking paperwork
against plants in a box to read it as being one of the species on the list
he had authority to import/export?

Did he mean to obfuscate the newness of the species *if* he wrote this
and/or did the officials make assumptions that did not include the
possibility it was new? Did he lie on the form and claim it was something
he knew it wasn't: "Phrag schlimii"

Did he know his authority to import/export Phrags did *not* include
undescribed new species in this genus?

Did the lower level permit checking and issuing officials on both sides of
the border know what to do if they had a NEW species from a CITES appendix
two protected genus passing by them? How often does that happen?

I have always just been curious. Is this a gray area or should somebody
have known to stop the plants from leaving Peru or coming into the
country. Or did he HIDE the newness of the Phrag in order to get it into
the country?

Al

And, esoterically messing with your mind: If it's an unidentified new
species, how can it be considered a Phrag at all?

Reka" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,

Disregarding the issue of whether CITES is succeeding at what it intends
to do or not, can you consider this a gray area? All Paph and Phrag
species are Appendix 1, right? So where is the gray area?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html