I think you misread that. Seed is not exempt.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Munir" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

If only it was this simple. It is not. Aaron explained the "fruit of the
poison tree" and I think this is the area that most people get in trouble
most often. It is a mess and reading CITES will not clear it up. At this
point I do not think there is any one out there that can tell you which
plants are legal in the US--you need to know about the plant's parents and
that information need not be on the label. What is legal in one country is
often illegal US (Aaron explained this as well). The import process do not
stop the flow. If the plant is legal in Taiwan, the exporter is able to get
a valid CITES export permit.

As K Barrett stated, AOS will not judge illegal plants and this is going to
be a mess as well. Take the Paph Joyce Hasegawa I saw last week. The
judges must decide if the plant is mislabeled, if they decide yes it is
easy. But if they decide the label is correct, the next question is if the
plant has been made with one of the newly collected delenatiis (darker and
better) or if it was made with a legal delenatii. Good luck.

Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?

Why are paphs such as hangianum still illegal? Has Vietnam refused to grant
export permits?

Are both China and Taiwan members of CITES?

Will newly found species legally make it out of China?

Pat





oups.com...
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

Pat Brennan wrote:
...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the
Club Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003:
Phragmipedium kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

Thanks Steve, but I guess I worded the question wrong. Everyone considered
that kovachii and the others displayed that day to be a legal plants. What
I was asking about was plants that the US considers illegal but other
countries consider legal. For example, if a hangianum cross is displayed at
next years IPA in Taiwan, would AOS judges consider it?

Pat


"Steve" wrote in message
...
Pat Brennan wrote:
...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the Club
Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003: Phragmipedium
kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

I'm with you Pat. Its clear as mud.

K Barrett

Pat Brennan wrote:
Thanks Steve, but I guess I worded the question wrong. Everyone considered
that kovachii and the others displayed that day to be a legal plants. What
I was asking about was plants that the US considers illegal but other
countries consider legal. For example, if a hangianum cross is displayed at
next years IPA in Taiwan, would AOS judges consider it?

Pat


"Steve" wrote in message
...

Pat Brennan wrote:

...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the Club
Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003: Phragmipedium
kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

I just emailed the AOS judging committee and asked them. We'll see what
they say.

K Barrett

Pat Brennan wrote:
Thanks Steve, but I guess I worded the question wrong. Everyone considered
that kovachii and the others displayed that day to be a legal plants. What
I was asking about was plants that the US considers illegal but other
countries consider legal. For example, if a hangianum cross is displayed at
next years IPA in Taiwan, would AOS judges consider it?

Pat


"Steve" wrote in message
...

Pat Brennan wrote:

...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the Club
Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003: Phragmipedium
kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

Ah, well, that's a much more difficult question when you put it that
way. I could tell you what I assume but that would be a guess, not an
answer. Maybe someone here knows of an example of how that was handled
in an actual situation?

Steve


Pat Brennan wrote:
Thanks Steve, but I guess I worded the question wrong. Everyone considered
that kovachii and the others displayed that day to be a legal plants. What
I was asking about was plants that the US considers illegal but other
countries consider legal. For example, if a hangianum cross is displayed at
next years IPA in Taiwan, would AOS judges consider it?

Pat


"Steve" wrote in message
...

Pat Brennan wrote:

...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the Club
Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003: Phragmipedium
kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

I notice that China is Party to CITES but I did not see Taiwan listed in the
member countries. Maybe I missed it. I expected it to be the other way
around. Of course China is under the impression that Taiwan and it are the
same.

http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/alphabet.shtml

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...

Are both China and Taiwan members of CITES?

Will newly found species legally make it out of China?

Pat

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:29:33 -0500 in Al wrote:
I notice that China is Party to CITES but I did not see Taiwan listed in the
member countries. Maybe I missed it. I expected it to be the other way
around. Of course China is under the impression that Taiwan and it are the
same.

And the US maintains a one China policy.
I mean we wouldn't want companies like Lenovo and Sanmina to stop making toys for us, would we?



--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

Munir,
As a general rule of thumb,
1. Buy from reputable growers within your country of origin.
2. Use nursery grown stock when making crosses or selfings.
3. Don't send plants out of the country of origin.
4. When buying at orchid fairs from foreign sources, be sure you are not
buying plants that are on the endangered list.
5. And, I don't think that even sterile, in-vitro containers of such
plants as Renanthera or Vanda coerula can come into the country although
I may be wrong.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System
http://home.earthlink.net/~profpam/page3.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Munir wrote:
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:21:59 GMT in . net profpam wrote:
Munir,
5. And, I don't think that even sterile, in-vitro containers of such
plants as Renanthera or Vanda coerula can come into the country although
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I may be wrong.
pedant
may legally
/pedant
If tons of pot and crank and smack can make it across the border
despite an official war on drugs, I'm sure those can get across.
Of course the innocent and well meaning will be punished more than
the flagrant violators...

(It's been a "What can be done is not the same as what may legally
be done, and both are quite dissimilar to what should be done and what is
done" sort of morning)


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

K Barrett wrote:
I just emailed the AOS judging committee and asked them. We'll see what
they say.


There would be no problem judging a Paph. hangianum cross in hangianum's
country of origin or a country which has allowed legal importation. For
example, Phrag. kovachii was judged at an AOS sponsored show in Peru,
and received several awards (last year?). But it would not be allowed
in the United States.

Of particular interest to me was discussion that a cross labelled as
using Paph. emersonii (legal) as a parent that had 'obviously' used P.
hangianum should also be barred. As if we can really tell that at the
judging table. "Wow, this is so nice it must have been made with
hangianum!"... Sure...


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Rob wrote:
K Barrett wrote:

I just emailed the AOS judging committee and asked them. We'll see
what they say.


There would be no problem judging a Paph. hangianum cross in hangianum's
country of origin or a country which has allowed legal importation. For
example, Phrag. kovachii was judged at an AOS sponsored show in Peru,
and received several awards (last year?). But it would not be allowed
in the United States.

Of particular interest to me was discussion that a cross labelled as
using Paph. emersonii (legal) as a parent that had 'obviously' used P.
hangianum should also be barred. As if we can really tell that at the
judging table. "Wow, this is so nice it must have been made with
hangianum!"... Sure...



I see what you are saying, Rob, but is hangianum from Taiwan? Sorry to
split even finer legal hairs, but the US recognizes Taiwan, the Chinese
don't, and all this is beyond the mere judging of flowers...

As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy?
People have been sued for less, or so I'm told.

K

This should be fun, I was guessing AOS would say they would not judge it.
Maybe we will get a gray answer.

As for judges playing cops--it is not that bad, they only pass on a plant,
not give a ticket with a court date. Besides, how many times have I heard a
judge say a plant was not what the entry label said it was and pass the
plant? It is a pretty common thing to hear at the centers here on the east
coast. I do not think this is a beyond a shadow of a doubt thing, much
more a preponderance of the evidence. No judge wants to be on a team that
gives an award to a incorrectly labeled plant.

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Rob wrote:
K Barrett wrote:

I just emailed the AOS judging committee and asked them. We'll see what
they say.


There would be no problem judging a Paph. hangianum cross in hangianum's
country of origin or a country which has allowed legal importation. For
example, Phrag. kovachii was judged at an AOS sponsored show in Peru, and
received several awards (last year?). But it would not be allowed in the
United States.

Of particular interest to me was discussion that a cross labelled as
using Paph. emersonii (legal) as a parent that had 'obviously' used P.
hangianum should also be barred. As if we can really tell that at the
judging table. "Wow, this is so nice it must have been made with
hangianum!"... Sure...



I see what you are saying, Rob, but is hangianum from Taiwan? Sorry to
split even finer legal hairs, but the US recognizes Taiwan, the Chinese
don't, and all this is beyond the mere judging of flowers...

As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.

K

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
[swnip]
As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.

Use of science! DNA fingerprinting should offer a reasoable means of
determining parentage, but based on a balance of probabilities. I don't
think there is a hope if providing a definitive proof beyond a reasoable
doubt. I certainly don't want to even consider trying to speculate about
what threshold probability of type I and type II error would constitute
proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If you want to do it seriously, you'd need
a global database that includes DNA fingerprints from as many specimens as
possible. This might become practicable if one could identify enough labs
to do DNA fingerprinting as an affordable cost and require all plants judged
by the various societies should be sampled for DNA.

Reliance on the available science, while not likely adequate for criminal
courts in many cases (for purposes of determining identity of two samples,
yes, but determining parentage probably not), would certainly eliminate the
kinds of biases with which you appear to be concerned. And if warranted,
the available science may be adequate to support decisions in civil cases.

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making