I think they'll say what Rob did. That the plant is legal in China
(whether Taiwan is China remains to be seen) and they'd go ahead and
judge it. If they answer at all, LOL!! Like a fool I signed my own
name and center, so they've probably opened a file on me, stating in
bold letters across the front that I'm too ignorant to elevate to
accredited - ever.

Otherwise, yes, I now see your point about just passing on a plant. No
need to get bloody about the thing. We had a situation 3-4 yrs ago
where a person brought in an album Paph helenea to judging and half the
group of judges wanted to allow it in for judging (let the AOS make the
final determination as to whether any award would stand) and half
refused to sit on any team that would consider it. It got rather loud
for the pac central, *G*.

K Barrett

Pat Brennan wrote:
This should be fun, I was guessing AOS would say they would not judge it.
Maybe we will get a gray answer.

As for judges playing cops--it is not that bad, they only pass on a plant,
not give a ticket with a court date. Besides, how many times have I heard a
judge say a plant was not what the entry label said it was and pass the
plant? It is a pretty common thing to hear at the centers here on the east
coast. I do not think this is a beyond a shadow of a doubt thing, much
more a preponderance of the evidence. No judge wants to be on a team that
gives an award to a incorrectly labeled plant.

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

Rob wrote:

K Barrett wrote:


I just emailed the AOS judging committee and asked them. We'll see what
they say.


There would be no problem judging a Paph. hangianum cross in hangianum's
country of origin or a country which has allowed legal importation. For
example, Phrag. kovachii was judged at an AOS sponsored show in Peru, and
received several awards (last year?). But it would not be allowed in the
United States.

Of particular interest to me was discussion that a cross labelled as
using Paph. emersonii (legal) as a parent that had 'obviously' used P.
hangianum should also be barred. As if we can really tell that at the
judging table. "Wow, this is so nice it must have been made with
hangianum!"... Sure...



I see what you are saying, Rob, but is hangianum from Taiwan? Sorry to
split even finer legal hairs, but the US recognizes Taiwan, the Chinese
don't, and all this is beyond the mere judging of flowers...

As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.

K

Ted (I dream of things never heard of and ask 'Why not'?)Byers wrote:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

[swnip]
As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.


Use of science! DNA fingerprinting should offer a reasoable means of
determining parentage, but based on a balance of probabilities. [snip]
Cheers,

Ted

Ha! Dude, you bogart! Pass some of what you're smoking to the rest of
the crowd! LOL!!

By the time the DNA comes back the show would be over and flower will
have faded.

K Barrett

I was going to say that I didn't know those dna fingerprint test kits were
available at our local drugstores yet.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
Ted (I dream of things never heard of and ask 'Why not'?)Byers wrote:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

[swnip]
As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.


Use of science! DNA fingerprinting should offer a reasoable means of
determining parentage, but based on a balance of probabilities. [snip]
Cheers,

Ted

Ha! Dude, you bogart! Pass some of what you're smoking to the rest of the
crowd! LOL!!

By the time the DNA comes back the show would be over and flower will have
faded.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
Ted (I dream of things never heard of and ask 'Why not'?)Byers wrote:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

[swnip]
As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy? People
have been sued for less, or so I'm told.


Use of science! DNA fingerprinting should offer a reasoable means of
determining parentage, but based on a balance of probabilities. [snip]
Cheers,

Ted

Ha! Dude, you bogart! Pass some of what you're smoking to the rest of the
crowd! LOL!!

By the time the DNA comes back the show would be over and flower will have
faded.

Of course it will. It taks time to do it right, but that doesn't mean it
shouldn't be done. The technology is there, so show, and judge, the plant
at the show, but at the same time take the tissue sample and let the DNA
make the final determination of the identity of the plant. Just make the
requisite observations at the show and record the relevant information, and
then sort things out for a final result when the test results are in. I see
no need for instant results.

Cheers,

Ted

--
R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D.
R & D Decision Support Solutions
http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/
Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making

Al, I know you have seen them. You know green + and it's good to go, red O
and you best pass. I think I have even seen ads on TV.

Pat

"Al" wrote in message
...
I was going to say that I didn't know those dna fingerprint test kits were
available at our local drugstores yet.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
Ted (I dream of things never heard of and ask 'Why not'?)Byers wrote:
"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..

[swnip]
As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy?
People have been sued for less, or so I'm told.


Use of science! DNA fingerprinting should offer a reasoable means of
determining parentage, but based on a balance of probabilities. [snip]
Cheers,

Ted

Ha! Dude, you bogart! Pass some of what you're smoking to the rest of
the crowd! LOL!!

By the time the DNA comes back the show would be over and flower will
have faded.

K Barrett

K Barrett wrote:


I see what you are saying, Rob, but is hangianum from Taiwan? Sorry to
split even finer legal hairs, but the US recognizes Taiwan, the Chinese
don't, and all this is beyond the mere judging of flowers...

As to your second point I agree. IMHO this policy changes the job
description from orchid judge to orchid cop, something I'm not trained
for. Its frustrating. How are you going to know beyond a shadow of a
doubt (or a preponderance of the evidence) that a plant was made with
hangianum? How are you going to know if that isn't mere jealousy?
People have been sued for less, or so I'm told.

K

Yes, and to be fair and consistent, anyone who is on a judging team
which judges or even sees a plant that later is deemed to have been
illegal should be prosecuted and punished as were Selby and Michael
Kovach. Ain't life grand under the neo-nazis?