On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:21:13 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

Last summer I was at Home Depot and found two out of bloom Ascocendas
labeled Pattaya Beauty. They were a reasonable price and in good shape. I
brought them home and hung them in a tree until it was time to bring them
into the Greenhouse. (I've seen them since then at HD in other shipments).

Now both of them are in bloom with very nice peachy colored flowers.

So I went to the RHS site to see who the parents were and surprise.....they
haven't been registered. A search for Pattaya shows that T. Orchids seems
to use this in their registrations. I believe this is a breeder in
Thailand.

I google search shows a couple of Ascocenda Pattaya xxxxxx that seem to be
unregistered. Isn't this kind of like fraud or something? I feel this if
you are going to market plants you should at least put the cross on the tag
or finish the registration!

Any other views out there?

Gene

Some Thai breeders will register an error not the correct plants
in a cross. Some will just never register at all. They feel
this is the way to keep their advantage. IF they don't register
it you can not make the copy hybrid and undercut their price.

It is a known fact. Only becoming more sophisticated about the
process and the reasons for registering will change their
attitude. They have been doing this for a hundred years... why
should today be different.

We had a really good talk on Phrags and Phrag Hybrids last night.
He was showing us why he thinks it is stalled unless some one
gets the new one legalized or something else is legally
discovered. He also showed samples of plants that were misnamed
because they had to have other parents to have the shape or color
characteristics they have.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Susan Erickson wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:21:13 GMT, "Gene Schurg"
wrote:

I google search shows a couple of Ascocenda Pattaya xxxxxx that seem to be
unregistered. Isn't this kind of like fraud or something? I feel this if
you are going to market plants you should at least put the cross on the tag
or finish the registration!

Any other views out there?


Not to sound obnoxious - but Home Depot isn't the place to buy
properly named orchids! Seriously - huge wholesale nurseries (and
it's hardly just the Thais -Twyford is also notorious), couldn't give
a hoot about the judging program, which realistically, is what names
are all about. They are trying to sell thousands of plants at a time,
mostly to people who either intend to throw them away when they've
finished flowering or can't be bothered to learn how to grow them, and
kill them in short order. Registration costs time and money and, as
Susan notes, lets the competition know what went into this season's
big seller.

At least the Thais don't use already registered names - Twyford sells
Phalaenopsis "Kaleidoscope". What they mean is "Baldan's
Kaleidoscope", and ignore the fact there's a completely different
(white and purple) Phal. Kaleidoscope. Now *that* I find incredibly
annoying. On the rare occasion I succumb to a Thai den hybrid, I
assume it's unregistered, and in fact am happy when I think the label
in the pot matches the plant, and hasn't just "helpfully" been stuck
into the nearest handy pot that didn't have one by some ignorant HD
customer or clerk!

There are parts of the orchid related horticulture industry that are not
tuned into the registration and judging system because for the growers and
producers of these orchids this is not where the dinner money comes from.
Mass wholesalers and cut flower producers came to mind. Not going through
the RHS registration system when naming a cultivar is not really crime, but
just one aspect of a huge ungoverned industry that a "collector" needs to be
aware of. In addition to those producers who just don't care about
registration for whatever reason are those mistaken translation and
spellings of registered names that occur as plants move from one hemisphere
to another. There are lots of mislabeled plants out there. Personally I am
skeptical that many of our labeled orchids really have the lineage that
their tag name promises. There is just too much human involvement in the
century's long process for this to be true. Intentional fraud is not
necessary for mistakes to occur.

Anyway, Den. Emma White is a mainstay of the cut flower trade and has been
around for years and years. It is produced and sold, and produced and sold
in huge quantities, both plants and cut flowers, but you can't find this
orchid in a registration database. I believe Ascocenda Pattaya falls into
this category: it is really a cut flower industry mainstay. These orchids
persist in cultivation because they fit very well into the niche they were
created to fill: big colorful flowers on easy to grow/quick to bloom
vigorous plants. There is nothing wrong with keeping these plants in your
collection but think twice before using them in a hybrid you want to
register and sit in front of a judge. I don't think you can do it with
personal integrity intact. :-)

With cultivars like Emma White and Pattaya it is also possible that you
might have plants from two different lineages labeled with the same name.
In the trade, the name becomes more important than the lineage after a
while. The bride walking down the isle with a big bouquet of Den. Emma
White sold to her by her florist doesn't care if the 2 dozen pretty white
sprays are all the same cultivar as long as it looks pretty. But the most
famous example of this idea jumps out of the orchid trade and into the
daffodil trade. For collectors Daffodils are bred and registered in pretty
much the same way as Orchids, I think. However, in the cut flower and bulb
producing trades there is a very famous big yellow daffodil called "King
Alfred". The lore surrounding this name says that the original strain died
out long ago but newer improved big yellow daffodils are still marketed
under this name because the buying public recognizes the name and attaches
it to big yellow daffodils.

What was your question?

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
Last summer I was at Home Depot and found two out of bloom Ascocendas
labeled Pattaya Beauty. They were a reasonable price and in good shape.
I
brought them home and hung them in a tree until it was time to bring them
into the Greenhouse. (I've seen them since then at HD in other
shipments).

Now both of them are in bloom with very nice peachy colored flowers.

So I went to the RHS site to see who the parents were and
surprise.....they
haven't been registered. A search for Pattaya shows that T. Orchids seems
to use this in their registrations. I believe this is a breeder in
Thailand.

I google search shows a couple of Ascocenda Pattaya xxxxxx that seem to be
unregistered. Isn't this kind of like fraud or something? I feel this if
you are going to market plants you should at least put the cross on the
tag
or finish the registration!

Any other views out there?

Gene

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:46:29 -0500, "Al"
wrote:

.......................... clipped................
. The bride walking down the isle with a big bouquet of Den. Emma
White sold to her by her florist doesn't care if the 2 dozen pretty white
sprays are all the same cultivar as long as it looks pretty. But the most
famous example of this idea jumps out of the orchid trade and into the
daffodil trade. For collectors Daffodils are bred and registered in pretty
much the same way as Orchids, I think. However, in the cut flower and bulb
producing trades there is a very famous big yellow daffodil called "King
Alfred". The lore surrounding this name says that the original strain died
out long ago but newer improved big yellow daffodils are still marketed
under this name because the buying public recognizes the name and attaches
it to big yellow daffodils.

What was your question?


Thanks Al. Glad the Alien let you explain this so well for us. It
is really quite this simple. The growers are focused on the
"geranium trade" pot it enjoy it and toss it. While we think it
is a great find that must grow for ever.
Love the King Alfred story. I too have bought "King Alfred"
because I "knew" what I was getting.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php