"danny" wrote in message
.. .
If the numbers being shown in northern California are so low, why the heck
do ya'll need all those JC's?

In a nutshell, because one can't get there from here. Traffic is murder,
and if you grow in the central valley there's no way you are going to bring
your orchids into the Bay Area. Hence the center in Sacramento, which has
already out awarded the SF and Oakland centers.... I think...


Why is the number being considered at POE lower? Are people marking
plants "Not for Judging", are the displays smaller, or are the judges not
picking out as many as they used to?

I think the judges aren't picking out as many as in previous years and
people aren't entering as many either.

K

California ain't the only place with traffic...

It's not that unusual for someone to drive a few hours to our judging center
from Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina. We even used to get a few from
Mississippi and Louisiana occasionally before they opened a supplemental JC
out there. The next closest JC from here is Greensboro, which is about 330
miles from Atlanta according to Mapquest.

-danny

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
"danny" wrote in message
.. .
If the numbers being shown in northern California are so low, why the
heck do ya'll need all those JC's?

In a nutshell, because one can't get there from here. Traffic is murder,
and if you grow in the central valley there's no way you are going to
bring your orchids into the Bay Area. Hence the center in Sacramento,
which has already out awarded the SF and Oakland centers.... I think...


Why is the number being considered at POE lower? Are people marking
plants "Not for Judging", are the displays smaller, or are the judges not
picking out as many as they used to?

I think the judges aren't picking out as many as in previous years and
people aren't entering as many either.

K

Ray: I think the dues increase is the biggest factor, but I agree there are
probably others as well. You can chalk up at least 50, probably closer to
100, non-renewals to south Florida nursery owners due to (1) AOS behavior
when it moved its HQ down here and (2) the increased cost of advertising in
the re-formatted version of the mag. I realize that's only a drop in the
bucket -- but it ties in with other issues that negatively affect local
orchid societies, or at least the ones in this area (IMO).

The number will go down by one more when my current membership expires. Not
only can I no longer afford to advertise in the mag, I haven't read past the
Table of Contents of the last several issues I've received. Nor do I keep
them on file any longer; I donate them to anyone who will take them off my
hands at every opportunity. I know that the majority of the content
(besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it was the
AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in most
issues.

Kenni



"Ray B" wrote in message
news:7tUch.710$4p2.353@trndny07...
Do you know for sure that it's a direct cause-and-effect relationship, or
are there other factors that could have affected the numbers?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
If you go to the Pacific Central web page
(http://www.aospacificcentral.org) and look at the plant index page you
can see what the increase in award fees did at the Pac Central in terms
of number of awards. In 2002 and 2003 we gave out a greater # of awards,
and since the fee increase the # of plants shown and # of awards has
dropped significantly, IMHO. Just look at how long the column inches are
for those 2 years as compared to more recent years.

Maybe the AOS doesn't care.

K Barrett

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Never mind, I found it. Pg. 942, for anyone else who wants to look.

Taking this a step further, the figure of 20,863 is the *average* net
press run for the past 12 months. The net press run for the *month
closest* to the reporting date is 19,072. That would indicate a dramatic
reduction over the past year.

Next, look at the copies listed as paid subscriptions or *requested*.
Those numbers are 17,531 average vs. 15,899 latest month. The balance of
the printing run would then go to individual sales in one form or
another, or complimentary copies. I guess I could go look at last
year's December issue to compare the numbers, but quite honestly it hurt
my eyes to do this much!

Seems to me that raising the dues has had a substantial impact.

Diana

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Ray, where did you *find* that number? I'm looking on pg. 878 where
you'd think it would be, but can't find it.

Diana

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:vArch.275$bW2.147@trndny04...
It's printed in AWFULLY small font size, but I think it says 20863

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"unknown" wrote in message
...
John wrote several months ago, about "Orchids" magazine's
circulation:

This information appears in minute print in each December issue of
Orchid.
Average total distribution per issue during preceding 12 months
(including
free copies) of Orchid:
2004 = 24312
2005 = 22574
So in one year the distribution has fallen by 1738 (about 7%) and
this is
before the increase in price.
Cheers
John


anyone gotten their new one yet and willing to post the stats?
thanks
in advance.

--j_a

Yeah Kenni, I agree.

Despite some advertising investment, the only business benefit I have
realized was due to Charles Rhodes' recent article.

I have AOS Bulletins dating back to the late '70's, but find the newer ones
far less interesting and worthy of saving.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Ray: I think the dues increase is the biggest factor, but I agree there
are probably others as well. You can chalk up at least 50, probably
closer to 100, non-renewals to south Florida nursery owners due to (1) AOS
behavior when it moved its HQ down here and (2) the increased cost of
advertising in the re-formatted version of the mag. I realize that's only
a drop in the bucket -- but it ties in with other issues that negatively
affect local orchid societies, or at least the ones in this area (IMO).

The number will go down by one more when my current membership expires.
Not only can I no longer afford to advertise in the mag, I haven't read
past the Table of Contents of the last several issues I've received. Nor
do I keep them on file any longer; I donate them to anyone who will take
them off my hands at every opportunity. I know that the majority of the
content (besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it
was the AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in
most issues.

Kenni



"Ray B" wrote in message
news:7tUch.710$4p2.353@trndny07...
Do you know for sure that it's a direct cause-and-effect relationship, or
are there other factors that could have affected the numbers?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
If you go to the Pacific Central web page
(http://www.aospacificcentral.org) and look at the plant index page you
can see what the increase in award fees did at the Pac Central in terms
of number of awards. In 2002 and 2003 we gave out a greater # of
awards, and since the fee increase the # of plants shown and # of awards
has dropped significantly, IMHO. Just look at how long the column
inches are for those 2 years as compared to more recent years.

Maybe the AOS doesn't care.

K Barrett

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Never mind, I found it. Pg. 942, for anyone else who wants to look.

Taking this a step further, the figure of 20,863 is the *average* net
press run for the past 12 months. The net press run for the *month
closest* to the reporting date is 19,072. That would indicate a
dramatic reduction over the past year.

Next, look at the copies listed as paid subscriptions or *requested*.
Those numbers are 17,531 average vs. 15,899 latest month. The balance
of the printing run would then go to individual sales in one form or
another, or complimentary copies. I guess I could go look at last
year's December issue to compare the numbers, but quite honestly it
hurt my eyes to do this much!

Seems to me that raising the dues has had a substantial impact.

Diana

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Ray, where did you *find* that number? I'm looking on pg. 878 where
you'd think it would be, but can't find it.

Diana

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:vArch.275$bW2.147@trndny04...
It's printed in AWFULLY small font size, but I think it says 20863

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"unknown" wrote in message
...
John wrote several months ago, about "Orchids" magazine's
circulation:

This information appears in minute print in each December issue of
Orchid.
Average total distribution per issue during preceding 12 months
(including
free copies) of Orchid:
2004 = 24312
2005 = 22574
So in one year the distribution has fallen by 1738 (about 7%) and
this is
before the increase in price.
Cheers
John


anyone gotten their new one yet and willing to post the stats?
thanks
in advance.

--j_a

Down here, the AOS has formed the South Florida Leadership Council for
Society Reps. The Reps who go seem to think that their input is of value.
Not to denigrate their service, because I value the time these volunteers
put in, but I don't think AOS is listening. IMO, it's a feel good effort.
AOS brass who attend these meetings do not even want to entertain the idea
that dues might be a problem, even though it's so obvious. Lee Cooke seemed
to be trying, but he's *out*. Maybe because he seemed to be trying? Or maybe
it was only part of the overall effort to woo the Societies.

A number of years ago, there was a thread in this group about the AOS. I
opined that, having interacted with non-profits in the past, I found them to
be largely self perpetuating for the sake of just being there. IOW, after a
while the entrenched principals and employees find ways to justify their own
existence at the expense of whatever the mission was in the beginning. At
that time, a couple of people wrote to tell me how np's work (I already
knew) and why big salaries are required, etc.

Vindication is sweet.

Diana


"Ray B" wrote in message
news:1f3dh.926$R_1.286@trndny08...
Yeah Kenni, I agree.

Despite some advertising investment, the only business benefit I have
realized was due to Charles Rhodes' recent article.

I have AOS Bulletins dating back to the late '70's, but find the newer
ones far less interesting and worthy of saving.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Ray: I think the dues increase is the biggest factor, but I agree there
are probably others as well. You can chalk up at least 50, probably
closer to 100, non-renewals to south Florida nursery owners due to (1)
AOS behavior when it moved its HQ down here and (2) the increased cost of
advertising in the re-formatted version of the mag. I realize that's
only a drop in the bucket -- but it ties in with other issues that
negatively affect local orchid societies, or at least the ones in this
area (IMO).

The number will go down by one more when my current membership expires.
Not only can I no longer afford to advertise in the mag, I haven't read
past the Table of Contents of the last several issues I've received. Nor
do I keep them on file any longer; I donate them to anyone who will take
them off my hands at every opportunity. I know that the majority of the
content (besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it
was the AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in
most issues.

Kenni



"Ray B" wrote in message
news:7tUch.710$4p2.353@trndny07...
Do you know for sure that it's a direct cause-and-effect relationship,
or are there other factors that could have affected the numbers?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
If you go to the Pacific Central web page
(http://www.aospacificcentral.org) and look at the plant index page you
can see what the increase in award fees did at the Pac Central in terms
of number of awards. In 2002 and 2003 we gave out a greater # of
awards, and since the fee increase the # of plants shown and # of
awards has dropped significantly, IMHO. Just look at how long the
column inches are for those 2 years as compared to more recent years.

Maybe the AOS doesn't care.

K Barrett

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Never mind, I found it. Pg. 942, for anyone else who wants to look.

Taking this a step further, the figure of 20,863 is the *average* net
press run for the past 12 months. The net press run for the *month
closest* to the reporting date is 19,072. That would indicate a
dramatic reduction over the past year.

Next, look at the copies listed as paid subscriptions or *requested*.
Those numbers are 17,531 average vs. 15,899 latest month. The balance
of the printing run would then go to individual sales in one form or
another, or complimentary copies. I guess I could go look at last
year's December issue to compare the numbers, but quite honestly it
hurt my eyes to do this much!

Seems to me that raising the dues has had a substantial impact.

Diana

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Ray, where did you *find* that number? I'm looking on pg. 878 where
you'd think it would be, but can't find it.

Diana

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:vArch.275$bW2.147@trndny04...
It's printed in AWFULLY small font size, but I think it says 20863

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"unknown" wrote in message
...
John wrote several months ago, about "Orchids" magazine's
circulation:

This information appears in minute print in each December issue of
Orchid.
Average total distribution per issue during preceding 12 months
(including
free copies) of Orchid:
2004 = 24312
2005 = 22574
So in one year the distribution has fallen by 1738 (about 7%) and
this is
before the increase in price.
Cheers
John


anyone gotten their new one yet and willing to post the stats?
thanks
in advance.

--j_a

Diana,

Lee Moore is no longer running the AOS? Is that what I understand "*out*" to
mean? Interesting....

-Eric in SF
www.orchidphotos.org

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Down here, the AOS has formed the South Florida Leadership Council for
Society Reps. The Reps who go seem to think that their input is of value.

Danny,

There are a few excellent growers here who are virulently anti-AOS, and they
do mark their displays as not for AOS judging. In addition to the dues,
there are politics in the Bay Area AOS judging world, and those politics
indirectly led to the creation of the Sacramento judging center.

It's not polite or right to discuss the politics in public, and I'm not
privvy to the sundry details, just aware of their existence, but I think
they are a contributing factor to the dropoff in awards/submitted plants
locally.

And just this weekend, someone who received an AOS award at POE in February
said they were probably not going to pay for the award, as there was no
obvious benefit to them for their $60 as a non-member. The fact that it can
take YEARS for the award slides to arrive and that it took over 6 months for
the initial bill for the award to come didn't leave this person with a
positive impression about AOS judging.

-Eric in SF
www.orchidphotos.org

"danny" wrote in message
.. .
If the numbers being shown in northern California are so low, why the heck
do ya'll need all those JC's?

Why is the number being considered at POE lower? Are people marking
plants "Not for Judging", are the displays smaller, or are the judges not
picking out as many as they used to?

Kenni Judd wrote:

............................. I know that the majority of the content
(besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it was the
AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in most
issues.

Kenni


I have been wondering if there are more articles directed at newbies or
if, after reading the bulletin/magazine for over 30 years, I'm just
bored with most of the content now. I have noticed more and more
articles that aren't informative to anyone. Just lots of pictures and
very little text.
If, in fact, they are writing more for newbies and at the same time
raising the price so high that newbies may not take the plunge and join,
that could be a deadly combination.

Steve

Eric Hunt wrote:
Danny,

There are a few excellent growers here who are virulently anti-AOS,
\
Understandable.


And just this weekend, someone who received an AOS award at POE in February
said they were probably not going to pay for the award, as there was no
obvious benefit to them for their $60 as a non-member. The fact that it can
take YEARS for the award slides to arrive and that it took over 6 months for
the initial bill for the award to come didn't leave this person with a
positive impression about AOS judging.

Perhaps I don't get it at all. I thought an 'award' was something you
GAVE in recognition of some positive aspect or achievement. Not SOLD or
CHARGED for. I've never gotten it, and I never will. It's just stupid on
the face of it and more and more people are coming around to my way of
thinking it seems.

If an AOS award is $60, I can't imagine what they charge the recipient
of a Nobel prize. And what's the going charge for a congressional medal
of honor? Anybody know what you have to pay to get a purple heart?

tennis maynard wrote:

If an AOS award is $60, I can't imagine what they charge the recipient
of a Nobel prize. And what's the going charge for a congressional medal
of honor? Anybody know what you have to pay to get a purple heart?

Well, Tennis, as far as I know, for a Purple Heart you have to pay in
blood...

Reka

tennis maynard wrote:


Perhaps I don't get it at all. I thought an 'award' was something you
GAVE in recognition of some positive aspect or achievement. Not SOLD or
CHARGED for. I've never gotten it, and I never will. It's just stupid on
the face of it and more and more people are coming around to my way of
thinking it seems.


what tennis said. i never knew you had to pay for these silly things
until coming on here and reading y'all's posts. that's just ridiculous
(IMHO

however, if you decide not to pay for the award or the slides or
whatever, has your plant still won? is it still on record somewhere as
having won? (you can tell from the question i know nothing about this
process.

--j_a

I'm not going to play in this spitting contest with you Danny.

K Barrett

"danny" wrote in message
...
California ain't the only place with traffic...

It's not that unusual for someone to drive a few hours to our judging
center from Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina. We even used to get a few
from Mississippi and Louisiana occasionally before they opened a
supplemental JC out there. The next closest JC from here is Greensboro,
which is about 330 miles from Atlanta according to Mapquest.

-danny

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
"danny" wrote in message
.. .
If the numbers being shown in northern California are so low, why the
heck do ya'll need all those JC's?

In a nutshell, because one can't get there from here. Traffic is murder,
and if you grow in the central valley there's no way you are going to
bring your orchids into the Bay Area. Hence the center in Sacramento,
which has already out awarded the SF and Oakland centers.... I think...


Why is the number being considered at POE lower? Are people marking
plants "Not for Judging", are the displays smaller, or are the judges
not picking out as many as they used to?

I think the judges aren't picking out as many as in previous years and
people aren't entering as many either.

K

Ray, didn't you have some sort of a statistic about the number of orchid
growers and the number in the AOS?

I wonder if just placing an ad in all the local societies' newsletters would
be a better use of advertising dollars.... but then again we have sooo many
societies here in N Calif, which not many other areas can say. ( I think
there are 12-15 in my newsletter editor file, and that doesn't include the
specialist groups like cymbidium or pleurothallid groups or the groups whose
newsletter editors aren't online.)

K Barrett

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:1f3dh.926$R_1.286@trndny08...
Yeah Kenni, I agree.

Despite some advertising investment, the only business benefit I have
realized was due to Charles Rhodes' recent article.

I have AOS Bulletins dating back to the late '70's, but find the newer
ones far less interesting and worthy of saving.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Ray: I think the dues increase is the biggest factor, but I agree there
are probably others as well. You can chalk up at least 50, probably
closer to 100, non-renewals to south Florida nursery owners due to (1)
AOS behavior when it moved its HQ down here and (2) the increased cost of
advertising in the re-formatted version of the mag. I realize that's
only a drop in the bucket -- but it ties in with other issues that
negatively affect local orchid societies, or at least the ones in this
area (IMO).

The number will go down by one more when my current membership expires.
Not only can I no longer afford to advertise in the mag, I haven't read
past the Table of Contents of the last several issues I've received. Nor
do I keep them on file any longer; I donate them to anyone who will take
them off my hands at every opportunity. I know that the majority of the
content (besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it
was the AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in
most issues.

Kenni

Yes, Lee Cooke is out, but staying on until a replacement can be found. I'm
out of the loop on that front, so I don't know the reason why.

K Barrett

"Eric Hunt" wrote in message
...
Diana,

Lee Moore is no longer running the AOS? Is that what I understand "*out*"
to mean? Interesting....

-Eric in SF
www.orchidphotos.org

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Down here, the AOS has formed the South Florida Leadership Council for
Society Reps. The Reps who go seem to think that their input is of value.

As an aside I got my Dec copy of 'This Old House' mag and even *it* was
smaller than previous editions and had/has had fewer articles that interest
me. Probably becasue I really don't care about restoring a Cape Cod on
Martha's Vineyard - like that really has a lot to do with my lifestyle, LOL!
Now if they'd get back to homeowner repairs, staining concrete or ways to
decide about replacement windows I'd probably re-up my subscription, but
right now its nothing but ads and rich people 'fixing up' expensive homes.

K Barrett

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Kenni Judd wrote:

............................. I know that the majority of the content
(besides ads) needs to be directed to newbies, but back when it was the
AOSB, I used to find at least one or two interesting articles in most
issues.

Kenni


I have been wondering if there are more articles directed at newbies or
if, after reading the bulletin/magazine for over 30 years, I'm just bored
with most of the content now. I have noticed more and more articles that
aren't informative to anyone. Just lots of pictures and very little text.
If, in fact, they are writing more for newbies and at the same time
raising the price so high that newbies may not take the plunge and join,
that could be a deadly combination.

Steve