For those regular readers of RGO you may remember that I have been battling
the nasties over the year. The mealies have been gone now for over a year
and my phals really improved. I can't say it's because they aren't being
dragged down by mealies or whether its the change in fertilizer to the MSU
formulation from Ray. In either case I have the best looking an branching
spikes I've every had in my collection. Thanks Ray and Enstar II!

The Enstar took out the hard brown scale that was around a few of the
plants. I don't think it was much of an infestation but I did have problems
with it on a couple of the Oncidiums and Encyclia. I haven't seen hard
scale in over a year now. I don't miss popping those hard shells like
bubble wrap.

The real war was with the soft scale. I tried all the contact stuff from
the bottle, malathion, orthene, Enstar II, and other stinky stuff. It
would knock them down but they would just pop up somewhere else. It was
like a game of wack-a-mole in the arcade.

Last summer I bought the Bayer Advanced Tree & Shrub Insect Control
Concentrate. At first I didn't do my arithmetic correctly and was applying
it at a reduced rate and didn't see any affect. After returning to the
calculator I realized my mistake and I applied it at a rate of 1 oz per
gallon through the dos-a-matic injection system. I did this for three
consecutive weeks of watering in August.

Since this is a systemic and must be sucked up by the roots of the plant I
thought three weeks of application would insure that the plants carried the
insecticide throughout the entire plant. According to the label when used
on trees and shrubs it is effective for an entire year. In October I
thought I saw another outbreak of scale and applied another application but
have decided that I only saw eggs hatching.

The eggs of the scale seem to last many months. Five months after
application I do not find any live adult scale. On the older growths and
deep in the sheaths I do find crawlers. When I find them I clean them up
immediately.

My hypothesis is that the eggs were unaffected by the drenching with the
Bayer solution. Those eggs hatch where they were hidden on the older
growths. The crawlers start out looking for a place to start sucking and
get the residual of the poison still pulsing through the plant. They seem
to swarm form a mound about 1/2 of an inch across. I haven't found any
scale on new growths just on aging older canes and pseudobulbs.

In my previous attempts I was able to kill the live scale but a couple of
months later the eggs would hatch and soon infest the collection. With the
systemic in the plant over a longer period these eggs hatch but have nothing
to eat and soon die. The older growths did not suck up the systemic
insecticide as well as the new growths. The new growth has a higher
concentration of insecticide so if the crawler was blown into one of the new
growths it is quickly poisoned.

Any thoughts about this from the more experienced grower who have won the
battle of the scale?

Good Growing,
Gene

As far as I know, you are the only person who has ever won the battle of
the scale...

My experiences have been similar to yours, but I hadn't connected the
dots to long lived scale eggs. That is as good a hypothesis as any. I
thoroughly sprayed with three week apart applications of similar
chemicals (the bayer spray and a different IGR called Distance) late
this fall. I've seen a couple isolated outbreaks of boisduval scale on
a few plants, mainly plants hanging high where it is a bit warmer. But
in general the scale load is greatly reduced, I have to really work to
find any. Which is a step in the right direction. I have seen a couple
more outbreaks of mealy bug in some odd places (on phals, not paphs),
which I'm not sure I understand since I nuked every plant in the
greenhouse. I'm hoping that this summer when I can spread things apart
a great deal more that I can win the final battle.

I'm making the final push, we'll fill in the trenches and let the
poppies grow this fall.

Any thoughts about this from the more experienced grower who have won the
battle of the scale?

Good Growing,
Gene








--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?

We can beat these monsters!

Gene




"Rob" wrote in message
...
As far as I know, you are the only person who has ever won the battle of
the scale...

My experiences have been similar to yours, but I hadn't connected the
dots to long lived scale eggs. That is as good a hypothesis as any. I
thoroughly sprayed with three week apart applications of similar
chemicals (the bayer spray and a different IGR called Distance) late
this fall. I've seen a couple isolated outbreaks of boisduval scale on
a few plants, mainly plants hanging high where it is a bit warmer. But
in general the scale load is greatly reduced, I have to really work to
find any. Which is a step in the right direction. I have seen a couple
more outbreaks of mealy bug in some odd places (on phals, not paphs),
which I'm not sure I understand since I nuked every plant in the
greenhouse. I'm hoping that this summer when I can spread things apart
a great deal more that I can win the final battle.

I'm making the final push, we'll fill in the trenches and let the
poppies grow this fall.

Any thoughts about this from the more experienced grower who have won
the
battle of the scale?

Good Growing,
Gene








--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not
sure of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to
water before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance
to be absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more
actively transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to
absorbing chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same
cost, but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of
imidocloprid for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I
was worried that the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated
imidocloprid treatment, and I hadn't used orthene in a while. This way
I was hoping to get the resistant ones in the first two passes, and get
the longer residual of the imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is
cheap... Probably a stupid idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Gene & Rob,

I have a question for both of you. Thankfully, scale is generally not a huge
problem for me. I see it now and then, but seldom, really. And I have never
seen anything that I could identify as crawling scale. When I *have* had
scale, it appears attached to the plant, having sunk its wicked fangs in
already. Thorough searches have not produced anything further.

Am I missing something?

Diana

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did
you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between
applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not sure
of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to water
before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance to be
absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more actively
transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to absorbing
chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same cost,
but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of imidocloprid
for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I was worried that
the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated imidocloprid treatment, and I
hadn't used orthene in a while. This way I was hoping to get the
resistant ones in the first two passes, and get the longer residual of the
imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is cheap... Probably a stupid
idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

I don't think one can ever WIN the war against bugs; especially if you grow
in a greenhouse or outdoors or indoors near windows and doors and you live
on a planet with an active (or even ailing) biosphere. You may have quiet
periods with few visible problems but new infestations will always find a
way to the food and shelter we call our orchid collection. Vigilance is
required. Never ending vigilance. The best that can be hoped for is
containment and control, NOT eradication: unless you plan to destroy the
whole biosphere...


"Rob" wrote in message
...
As far as I know, you are the only person who has ever won the battle of
the scale...

al wrote:
I don't think one can ever WIN the war against bugs; especially if you grow
in a greenhouse or outdoors or indoors near windows and doors and you live
on a planet with an active (or even ailing) biosphere. You may have quiet
periods with few visible problems but new infestations will always find a
way to the food and shelter we call our orchid collection. Vigilance is
required. Never ending vigilance. The best that can be hoped for is
containment and control, NOT eradication: unless you plan to destroy the
whole biosphere...


Yes, this is true. But I would like to win the war against non-endemic
pests, at least. I don't think boisduval scale is native to
mid-michigan. In theory I should be able to keep that out once it is
gone (in theory). The thrips that come in from the hayfields next door
are another story.


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Diana Kulaga wrote:
Gene & Rob,

I have a question for both of you. Thankfully, scale is generally not a huge
problem for me. I see it now and then, but seldom, really. And I have never
seen anything that I could identify as crawling scale. When I *have* had
scale, it appears attached to the plant, having sunk its wicked fangs in
already. Thorough searches have not produced anything further.

Am I missing something?


I suspect there are a lot of different kinds of things called scale.
And no doubt many different species that get lumped into a few misused
categories. My particular bane is what I've always heard called
boisduval scale. The adult scale (females, I think) are flattened
hemispheres with a somewhat hard shell, but they are easily rubbed off.
The juveniles and (perhaps) the males are small, thriplike little SOBs
that form fluffy white masses under leaves and in various nooks. I've
never wanted to have it around long enough to take a picture...

However, others have different scale. I have seen 'soft scale' which are
basically scale without the hard shell, flattened ovoids that you might
think were bald mealy bugs. In my experience they were more dense on
the infested plant than other types, but very easy to kill. I've only
ever seen it on one paph that I bought in florida. There is another
scale that I call by a latinized name of a well known vendor (I really
shouldn't put it into electrons) which I think is 'Hemispherical scale'
or some other equally useless common name. Easy to kill if you caught
it early, but evidently very hard to eradicate once established. Mealy
bugs are a type of scale, if I understand it right (I have actually seen
them move, not the other kinds).

As a general rule that is almost certainly bogus, the ones you see are
usually the females, which are large and not mobile. I think males and
juveniles are small and mobile, and can cover some ground.


--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Sometimes it's possible to learn from the past; looking back at old
knowledge with fresh eyes may give new insight. So it is with mealy bugs
and possibly even scale. The once-discredited concept in question is
'spontaneous generation'. Clearly, these bugs simply generate out of
thin air at will, defying any and all attempts at complete annihilation.
They will be with us always; it is inescapable. A never-ending war to
keep the numbers below critical level is the best mere humans can hope for.

I use Enstar II, orthene, and neem oil combined and get great knock-down,
long-term kill, and repellency all in one.

I recently tried the Bayer stuff alone and had pretty good knock-down in
three applications, but my heart still lies with Enstar II as a preventive.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Rob" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did
you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between
applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not sure
of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to water
before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance to be
absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more actively
transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to absorbing
chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same cost,
but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of imidocloprid
for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I was worried that
the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated imidocloprid treatment, and I
hadn't used orthene in a while. This way I was hoping to get the
resistant ones in the first two passes, and get the longer residual of the
imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is cheap... Probably a stupid
idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Diana,

When the momma scale mates with the daddy scale the momma lays eggs under
her shell. At some point the momma scale dies and protects the eggs with
her shell which gets leathery and dry. After some time the eggs hatch and a
bunch of small whitish dusty looking babies crawl out from under the shell
and look for a nice leaf to attach to. These are the crawlers. In large
quantities they could be mistaken for mealie bugs.

Gene




"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
Gene & Rob,

I have a question for both of you. Thankfully, scale is generally not a
huge
problem for me. I see it now and then, but seldom, really. And I have
never
seen anything that I could identify as crawling scale. When I *have* had
scale, it appears attached to the plant, having sunk its wicked fangs in
already. Thorough searches have not produced anything further.

Am I missing something?

Diana

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did
you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between
applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not
sure
of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to water
before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance to be
absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more actively
transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to
absorbing
chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same
cost,
but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of
imidocloprid
for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I was worried
that
the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated imidocloprid treatment, and
I
hadn't used orthene in a while. This way I was hoping to get the
resistant ones in the first two passes, and get the longer residual of
the
imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is cheap... Probably a
stupid
idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Never give up....we can win this battle!



"tennis maynard" wrote in message
...
Sometimes it's possible to learn from the past; looking back at old
knowledge with fresh eyes may give new insight. So it is with mealy bugs
and possibly even scale. The once-discredited concept in question is
'spontaneous generation'. Clearly, these bugs simply generate out of
thin air at will, defying any and all attempts at complete annihilation.
They will be with us always; it is inescapable. A never-ending war to
keep the numbers below critical level is the best mere humans can hope
for.

Ray,

What are you thoughts about the eggs living many months under sheaths and in
medium?

I think this is why we see them come back after a few weeks or months when
you think you have them gone. A long viable systemic helps kill them when
they hatch.

Gene



"Ray B" wrote in message
news:A9xth.4218$o31.1969@trndny04...
I use Enstar II, orthene, and neem oil combined and get great knock-down,
long-term kill, and repellency all in one.

I recently tried the Bayer stuff alone and had pretty good knock-down in
three applications, but my heart still lies with Enstar II as a
preventive.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Rob" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I. Did
you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between
applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not
sure
of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to water
before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance to be
absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more actively
transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to
absorbing
chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same
cost,
but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of
imidocloprid
for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I was worried
that
the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated imidocloprid treatment, and
I
hadn't used orthene in a while. This way I was hoping to get the
resistant ones in the first two passes, and get the longer residual of
the
imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is cheap... Probably a
stupid
idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

My thought is that no systemic that lasts that long, which is why the IGR's
are so great.

Many insects can survive in a dormant stage for a very long time. Exposure
to an IGR does not affect that, but does prevent further maturation.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
news:swyth.6936$U81.1613@trnddc06...
Ray,

What are you thoughts about the eggs living many months under sheaths and
in
medium?

I think this is why we see them come back after a few weeks or months when
you think you have them gone. A long viable systemic helps kill them when
they hatch.

Gene



"Ray B" wrote in message
news:A9xth.4218$o31.1969@trndny04...
I use Enstar II, orthene, and neem oil combined and get great knock-down,
long-term kill, and repellency all in one.

I recently tried the Bayer stuff alone and had pretty good knock-down in
three applications, but my heart still lies with Enstar II as a
preventive.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Rob" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:
Rob,

It is interesting that you could be observing the same thing as I.
Did
you
spray or drench with the Bayer product? Did you water between
applications
where the plants could suck up water without the chemicals?


I tried a drench (trash can and pump with hose) with just the bayer for
three consecutive weeks in early summer. That didn't work, or at least
not completely. When I added the IGR into the mix, it was applied as a
spray to the point of complete saturation of as much leaf surface as
possible (top and bottom), again for three consecutive weeks, within a
couple hours after watering the greenhouse in my normal way. I'm not
sure
of the rationale of that, but I did have one. It made sense to water
before so that I wouldn't wash out chemical before it had a chance to
be
absorbed, and I thought that perhaps the leaves would be more actively
transpiring right after a nice watering and more susceptible to
absorbing
chemical.

Distance is supposed to have translaminar systemic activity (absorbed
through the leaves), which is one of the reasons I picked it. I don't
think EnstarII is systemic (I could be wrong). It is about the same
cost,
but you have to buy a whole quart... They target the same pathway.

And actually, come to think of it, I used orthene instead of
imidocloprid
for the first two weeks. Both have systemic activity. I was worried
that
the bugs were becoming resistant to repeated imidocloprid treatment,
and
I
hadn't used orthene in a while. This way I was hoping to get the
resistant ones in the first two passes, and get the longer residual of
the
imidocloprid on the last one. And orthene is cheap... Probably a
stupid
idea.

--
Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a) See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more
orchids, obtain more credit

Hi Gene,

You might find this site helpful.

http://www.entomology.umn.edu/cues/i...ine/Scale.html

Based on what is says, the timing seems right for the October outbreak
to be from eggs not killed. Not much will kill a bug in all the life
cycles.

I do not think you can assume you will get a years coverage from a
single spraying. The label you are reading was written for a seasonal
plant with seasonal bugs. Based on what I have seen assume 4 to 6
weeks.

I have used this chemical to fight fungus gnats. I talked with the rep
and he recommend monthly sprayings. The label tells you to limit
sprayings to 2 per growth cycle (I am doing this from memory so this
might not be exactly right). I was afraid that too much of a good
thing would lead to color breaks, so I never followed his advice and
followed the label limits. With three drenches you hit them pretty
hard; I am interested to know much color breaking you see in your Phals
this winter. Aug is a pretty safe month to be hitting Phals with
systemics so there is a good chance you will not see any.

Pat