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Old 16-03-2007, 03:17 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Default Systemic pest killers

Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.
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Old 16-03-2007, 04:10 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 1,344
Default Systemic pest killers

I don't know if I'd use a chemical that was over 20 years old... let's see
Was Reagan in office then??

Anyway, I've used Orthene and the newer breeds of insecticide like some of
the Bayer products with imicloprid (not a systemic) in them.

But interestingly I used insecticidal soap to get rid of mealies that were
invading the Paphs in my collection. Go figure. Worked for me but didn't
work for you. But then I tend to hit things hard with the biggest gun I can
find. (Orthene or Malathion) so maybe its not crazy that something simple
would work. since the bugs in my collection probably hadn't had exposure to
that insecticide.

If you can find Orthene use it. or malathion, water the day before in order
to limit sequelae to the plant, cytotoxologic effects, like streaks/color
break in flower buds. Won't stop them but will lessen them.

K Barrett

"Dayton" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close to
making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and going
back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes or
moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based plants
with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids and there
isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be banned in some
places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm hoping something
works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.



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Old 16-03-2007, 02:53 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Default Systemic pest killers

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 20:10:57 -0700, "K Barrett"
wrote:

the newer breeds of insecticide like some of
the Bayer products with imicloprid (not a systemic) in them.



instructions are to pour it around the base of the tree, and it kills
bugs in the tree. also on the bottle "provides 12 months of systemic
protection"

the stuff has been referred to as synthetic nicotine.
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Old 16-03-2007, 04:15 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Default Systemic pest killers

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:41 -0400 in Dayton wrote:
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.


Using imodoclopid (misspelled big time, active ingredient in Bayer Tree and
Shrub) killed off scale, but made things tastier for mites.

Dunk and soak for the things in bark.
Added to the fertilizer mix for the things in semi-hydro.
Look through the archived articles for mixing ratio.


--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat
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Old 16-03-2007, 04:56 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 149
Default Systemic pest killers

I used the Bayer Tree and Shrub with good success.

I used it at a 1 Tablespoon per gallon and drenched the plants for three
consecutive waterings one week a part.

I did notice that the older growths continued to host scale for some time.
I believe this is because they do not take up as much water/chemical as the
newer growth.

Good Growing,
Gene




wrote in message
g...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:41 -0400 in
Dayton wrote:
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.


Using imodoclopid (misspelled big time, active ingredient in Bayer Tree
and
Shrub) killed off scale, but made things tastier for mites.

Dunk and soak for the things in bark.
Added to the fertilizer mix for the things in semi-hydro.
Look through the archived articles for mixing ratio.


--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat





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Old 16-03-2007, 05:53 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 91
Default Systemic pest killers

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:56:23 GMT in H6zKh.70$Sf2.21@trnddc01 Gene Schurg wrote:
I used the Bayer Tree and Shrub with good success.

I used it at a 1 Tablespoon per gallon and drenched the plants for three
consecutive waterings one week a part.

I did notice that the older growths continued to host scale for some time.
I believe this is because they do not take up as much water/chemical as the
newer growth.


And another item to add, a gently wielded toothbrush with some soapy water
and/or rubbing alcohol does well for lowering the population.
Granted, gently using a fingernail was more compatible with my desire
for an OCD activity...

Good Growing,
Gene




wrote in message
g...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:41 -0400 in
Dayton wrote:
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.


Using imodoclopid (misspelled big time, active ingredient in Bayer Tree
and
Shrub) killed off scale, but made things tastier for mites.

Dunk and soak for the things in bark.
Added to the fertilizer mix for the things in semi-hydro.
Look through the archived articles for mixing ratio.


--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat





--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat
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Old 16-03-2007, 07:47 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 63
Default Systemic pest killers

I was told that the finger and fingernail methods, while satisfying to
oneself, is bad because it releases and spreads the eggs.

I believe some Orthene has an oil as a carrier so you need to be careful in
the sun.

I think imidacloprid is also marketed as Marvik in a powder form also called
the water soluble form. In the area of $80 to $100 for a container. Not sure
how big, maybe a quart. Found at nursery suppliers, not garden stores.

Bob


wrote in message
g...
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:56:23 GMT in H6zKh.70$Sf2.21@trnddc01 Gene Schurg
wrote:
I used the Bayer Tree and Shrub with good success.

I used it at a 1 Tablespoon per gallon and drenched the plants for three
consecutive waterings one week a part.

I did notice that the older growths continued to host scale for some
time.
I believe this is because they do not take up as much water/chemical as
the
newer growth.


And another item to add, a gently wielded toothbrush with some soapy water
and/or rubbing alcohol does well for lowering the population.
Granted, gently using a fingernail was more compatible with my desire
for an OCD activity...

Good Growing,
Gene




wrote in message
g...
On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:41 -0400 in
Dayton wrote:
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.

Using imodoclopid (misspelled big time, active ingredient in Bayer Tree
and
Shrub) killed off scale, but made things tastier for mites.

Dunk and soak for the things in bark.
Added to the fertilizer mix for the things in semi-hydro.
Look through the archived articles for mixing ratio.


--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat





--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat



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Old 16-03-2007, 10:20 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 158
Default Systemic pest killers

Dayton: Liquid Sevin is pretty effective for both scale and mealies, at
recommended label rates. Mavrik (mentioned in another post) didn't seem to
do much, around here. Cygon (if it's still around) will work, but does
cause a lot of malformations, in my experience. For anything else that I
know of, you'll have to read labels and make your own judgments about
mixing. Orthene WP 75 (the 75 being the percentage of active ingredient)
was my fav for many years. It worked _very_ well, but is no longer
available around here. The active ingredient was acephate. The Orthene
Fire Ant powders still out there are pretty much the same thing, except that
the active ingredient is reduced (and I'm told it's illegal, at least in the
US, to mix stronger, so as to get back to the 75%).

The Sevin and acephate, if properly applied (all over the plant, including
lower leaf surfaces) DO work in bark and other "chunky" mixes, but it does
take time. If you go with an acephate product or the Liquid Sevin, you need
to spray once a week for 3 weeks. [I _wish_ I had a 1-time cure ...].
Otherwise, the pests will recur, and be more resistant the next time around.

To the extent possible (which I know depends on the number of plants at
issue), the toothbrush (also previously mentioned by another poster) along
with alcohol, soap or oil (if your conditions are not too hot for the
latter), is also a very good idea. At minimum, it will get rid of the dead
pests so you don't have to keep checking the same areas for re-infestation.
It also provides a faster "knockdown" than you can get with any systemic I
know of.

Seriously-infested plants will also benefit from repotting, for which the
major season is approaching. Hope this helps, Kenni

"Dayton" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close to
making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and going
back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes or
moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based plants
with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids and there
isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be banned in some
places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm hoping something
works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.



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Old 17-03-2007, 02:31 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 479
Default Systemic pest killers

Have you considered Enstar II? Instead of being an insecticide that kills
adults, it is an insect growth regulator (IGR) that stops all stages of the
insect from maturing. No maturation = no reproduction = no population of
critters.

I find it to be most effective when applied initially with an true killer
like acephate or imidicloprid to knock down the adult population
immediately, then do the follow-up applications with Enstar alone.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Dayton" wrote in message
...
Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close to
making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and going
back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes or
moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based plants
with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids and there
isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be banned in some
places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm hoping something
works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.



  #10   Report Post  
Old 18-03-2007, 01:56 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Feb 2007
Posts: 17
Default Systemic pest killers

wrote:
On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:56:23 GMT in H6zKh.70$Sf2.21@trnddc01 Gene Schurg wrote:

I used the Bayer Tree and Shrub with good success.

I used it at a 1 Tablespoon per gallon and drenched the plants for three
consecutive waterings one week a part.

I did notice that the older growths continued to host scale for some time.
I believe this is because they do not take up as much water/chemical as the
newer growth.



And another item to add, a gently wielded toothbrush with some soapy water
and/or rubbing alcohol does well for lowering the population.
Granted, gently using a fingernail was more compatible with my desire
for an OCD activity...

Good Growing,
Gene




wrote in message
. org...

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:17:41 -0400 in
Dayton wrote:

Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close
to making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and
going back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes
or moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based
plants with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids
and there isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be
banned in some places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm
hoping something works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.

Using imodoclopid (misspelled big time, active ingredient in Bayer Tree
and
Shrub) killed off scale, but made things tastier for mites.

Dunk and soak for the things in bark.
Added to the fertilizer mix for the things in semi-hydro.
Look through the archived articles for mixing ratio.


--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat





Have gone trough two quarts of alcohol over a period of a couple of
years. Beginning to run out of old toothbrushes too. Thanks for some
suggestions I may try. I'm less worried about the systemic being that
old in granular form. I'd pitch it if it was a liquid and it does work
on overwintered fuchsias for whitefly. May give one of the newer
formulatas a shot.


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Old 18-03-2007, 02:03 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 17
Default Systemic pest killers

Kenni Judd wrote:
Dayton: Liquid Sevin is pretty effective for both scale and mealies, at
recommended label rates. Mavrik (mentioned in another post) didn't seem to
do much, around here. Cygon (if it's still around) will work, but does
cause a lot of malformations, in my experience. For anything else that I
know of, you'll have to read labels and make your own judgments about
mixing. Orthene WP 75 (the 75 being the percentage of active ingredient)
was my fav for many years. It worked _very_ well, but is no longer
available around here. The active ingredient was acephate. The Orthene
Fire Ant powders still out there are pretty much the same thing, except that
the active ingredient is reduced (and I'm told it's illegal, at least in the
US, to mix stronger, so as to get back to the 75%).

The Sevin and acephate, if properly applied (all over the plant, including
lower leaf surfaces) DO work in bark and other "chunky" mixes, but it does
take time. If you go with an acephate product or the Liquid Sevin, you need
to spray once a week for 3 weeks. [I _wish_ I had a 1-time cure ...].
Otherwise, the pests will recur, and be more resistant the next time around.

To the extent possible (which I know depends on the number of plants at
issue), the toothbrush (also previously mentioned by another poster) along
with alcohol, soap or oil (if your conditions are not too hot for the
latter), is also a very good idea. At minimum, it will get rid of the dead
pests so you don't have to keep checking the same areas for re-infestation.
It also provides a faster "knockdown" than you can get with any systemic I
know of.

Seriously-infested plants will also benefit from repotting, for which the
major season is approaching. Hope this helps, Kenni

"Dayton" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have experience, hopefully positive, using systemics on
orchids? I am at my wit's end spraying Neem and insecticidal soaps for
scale. Now mealies are beginning to show up as well. Getting very close to
making a large trip to the compost heap (if the snow ever melts) and going
back to ferns and begonias.
Most of the problem children are phals potted in either soil-less mixes or
moss. I suspect no systemic would work in a bark mix.
I have a fairly old (20+ years) can of DiSyston granules(Disulfoton
Diethyl ethyl phosphordithicate) that I've used on other soil based plants
with some success. Cannot find any indication of use for orchids and there
isn't much on the web. From what I've found, it may even be banned in some
places. Not sure what else may be available, but I'm hoping something
works.
Appreciate any input anyone has.




Thanks. The biggest problem in spraying is that the plants are in a
closed room under flourescent and HID lights so ventilation is a real
problem during the winter (Maine where the low was -15° last week).
That's why I tried the Neem, it being a natural product. Will try some
of the others, which I have all of for outdoor work, when I can open the
windows or take the plants outside. Was hoping that there might be a
magic bullet because the scale problem has been going on for a couple of
years. Every time I think they're gone, I turn around and they're back.
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Old 18-03-2007, 03:31 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 8
Default Systemic pest killers


"Dayton" wrote in message
...

Thanks. The biggest problem in spraying is that the plants are in a closed
room under flourescent and HID lights so ventilation is a real problem
during the winter (Maine where the low was -15° last week). That's why I
tried the Neem, it being a natural product. Will try some of the others,
which I have all of for outdoor work, when I can open the windows or take
the plants outside. Was hoping that there might be a magic bullet because
the scale problem has been going on for a couple of years. Every time I
think they're gone, I turn around and they're back.



We have the same problem with meanly bugs and spider mites in a small hobby
greenhouse. No amount of spray, even systemic works for long. So far the
orchids have been spared, but we fear they'll get infested next.

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Old 18-03-2007, 05:34 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Default Systemic pest killers

The key to all of the critters is to remember they have eggs that continue
to hatch for many weeks after you spray. If you kill the adults this week
and don't follow up for the next couple of weeks then you have hatchlings
come back in two weeks and slowly your problem returns.

Systemics help that quite a bit because it makes the plant toxic to the
critter.

I believe some of these eggs can last all winter only to hatch in the spring
when the environment gets favorable for the hatchling. For years I got rid
of the scales and mealies for a month or two only to find them back a couple
of weeks later.

I know you shouldn't spray when you don't see anything but if you had them
in the past month then you should take into account that there are eggs
waiting to hatch. Mother nature designed them this way so they would
survive.

Good growing,
Gene


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Old 18-03-2007, 06:12 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 63
Default Systemic pest killers

I recently had an infestation of mites. I talked to Jerry Fischer at Orchids
Ltd. and he said to use insecticidal soap three times three days apart on
all plants in the growing area. The problem seems greatly diminished, if not
gone.

I will spray all the plants before bringing them in next fall.

Others have said just spraying mites with water is effective.
I like the soap. I want them dead.

Regarding the inside insects, put 3 quarts of water in a gallon container,
add one pint of alcohol and
one pint of orange 409. Spray weekly.

I was at an Orchid class recently and one of the speaker/vendors announced
that he had some plants with that he would no longer sell. He offered to
show all who wanted to see why. The plants were in clear plastic pots. He
had dropped one and when he picked it up and checked it for breakage he
noticed mealy bug larva on many of the roots. Sprays won't kill those.
unpotting, dipping and repotting will, but I wonder about the eggs.... Are
they laid topside or down around the roots as well?

Bob

"Minelli Family" wrote in message
...

"Dayton" wrote in message
...

Thanks. The biggest problem in spraying is that the plants are in a
closed room under flourescent and HID lights so ventilation is a real
problem during the winter (Maine where the low was -15° last week).
That's why I tried the Neem, it being a natural product. Will try some of
the others, which I have all of for outdoor work, when I can open the
windows or take the plants outside. Was hoping that there might be a
magic bullet because the scale problem has been going on for a couple of
years. Every time I think they're gone, I turn around and they're back.



We have the same problem with meanly bugs and spider mites in a small
hobby greenhouse. No amount of spray, even systemic works for long. So
far the orchids have been spared, but we fear they'll get infested next.



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Old 18-03-2007, 09:27 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 8
Default Systemic pest killers


"Bob Walsh" wrote in message
...
I recently had an infestation of mites. I talked to Jerry Fischer at
Orchids Ltd. and he said to use insecticidal soap three times three days
apart on all plants in the growing area. The problem seems greatly
diminished, if not gone.

I will spray all the plants before bringing them in next fall.

Others have said just spraying mites with water is effective.
I like the soap. I want them dead.

Regarding the inside insects, put 3 quarts of water in a gallon container,
add one pint of alcohol and
one pint of orange 409. Spray weekly.


I don't order online anymore after several disappointing experiences. Would
Home Depot carry Orange 409 and the soaps? I know they carry the usual
insecticides.

I was at an Orchid class recently and one of the speaker/vendors announced
that he had some plants with that he would no longer sell. He offered to
show all who wanted to see why. The plants were in clear plastic pots. He
had dropped one and when he picked it up and checked it for breakage he
noticed mealy bug larva on many of the roots. Sprays won't kill those.
unpotting, dipping and repotting will, but I wonder about the eggs.... Are
they laid topside or down around the roots as well?


I had cactus infested with root mealys about 10 years ago. I soaked them,
in their pots, in Malathion and covered them with a plastic sheet for 24
hours to hold the fumes in. I did this a week apart for several weeks. It
got them all. But now they may be resistant to Malathion. I believe the
eggs are laid in the soil around the roots.


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