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Old 08-11-2007, 01:57 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Default BTU's per dollar

In May of 2007 my heating oil cost $2.50 per gallon.
In May of 2007 my electricity cost .071 cents per kilowatt. (This
number includes all the surcharges and distribution costs state and
local consumption costs, etc.)

There are 141,000 BTU's of heat per gallon of fuel oil. My heater is
80% efficient. This means that 20% of the oil I burn goes some place
other than into heating the air in my greenhouse. (20% of my oil
dollar goes someplace other than into heating the greenhouse air.)

There are 3412 BTU's of heat per kilowatt. A radiant heater without
fans is pretty much 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat.

My question is "How much heat can I buy for the air in my greenhouse
with $1.00 of oil versus $1.00 of electricity at the price of energy
in May 2007?"

My answer is
BTU's per oil dollar: 45120
BTU's per electric dollar: 48056

Scary stuff if my calculations are correct. Oil used to be the most
cost effective fuel for heating. In October of 1999, for example, my
oil cost .96 per gallon and electricity cost .064 cents per kilowatt.
The cost of one fuel is going up much faster than the other.

I cannot hope to generate sufficient BTUs with electricity to heat my
greenhouse this winter, (all my plugs are too small ;-P and I use an
average of 423,000,000 BTUs per winter above what the sun provides)
but if the fuel costs have not changed much this summer and my
calculations are real then it makes some sense to plug in some
electric radiant heaters to help out a bit. And the higher oil goes
in comparrison to electricty the more help those radient heaters can
offer.

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Old 08-11-2007, 02:25 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Default BTU's per dollar

Excuse me. As always I must immediately correct myself: There are
3412 BTU's per kilowatt hour.

1 BTU per kilowatt = 1.05505585 seconds.

The problem with all these
words is that they are measuring something different.


On Nov 7, 7:57 pm, alpickrel wrote:

There are 3412 BTU's of heat per kilowatt. A radiant heater without
fans is pretty much 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat.




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Old 09-11-2007, 04:02 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 1,344
Default BTU's per dollar

Yeah, I pulled the little elecrtic heater out of storage, too. For just in
case. But my gas/electric usage is paltry as compared to yours. I was
tempted not even to post becasue the worst winter we've ever had here is
like summer as compared to your worst winter, *G*. In other words your
winter could eat my winter for lunch. Nevertheless, these costs do mount up
and even I am looking for a winter strategy this year. I raised the
thermostat so the interior gets warmer, warming the 55-gallon drums hotter
(yeah right - I lie to myself constantly) and also hoping the floor bricks
will warm up more & back radiate heat, too. We'll see.

K Barrett

"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
In May of 2007 my heating oil cost $2.50 per gallon.
In May of 2007 my electricity cost .071 cents per kilowatt. (This
number includes all the surcharges and distribution costs state and
local consumption costs, etc.)

There are 141,000 BTU's of heat per gallon of fuel oil. My heater is
80% efficient. This means that 20% of the oil I burn goes some place
other than into heating the air in my greenhouse. (20% of my oil
dollar goes someplace other than into heating the greenhouse air.)

There are 3412 BTU's of heat per kilowatt. A radiant heater without
fans is pretty much 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat.

My question is "How much heat can I buy for the air in my greenhouse
with $1.00 of oil versus $1.00 of electricity at the price of energy
in May 2007?"

My answer is
BTU's per oil dollar: 45120
BTU's per electric dollar: 48056

Scary stuff if my calculations are correct. Oil used to be the most
cost effective fuel for heating. In October of 1999, for example, my
oil cost .96 per gallon and electricity cost .064 cents per kilowatt.
The cost of one fuel is going up much faster than the other.

I cannot hope to generate sufficient BTUs with electricity to heat my
greenhouse this winter, (all my plugs are too small ;-P and I use an
average of 423,000,000 BTUs per winter above what the sun provides)
but if the fuel costs have not changed much this summer and my
calculations are real then it makes some sense to plug in some
electric radiant heaters to help out a bit. And the higher oil goes
in comparrison to electricty the more help those radient heaters can
offer.



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Old 09-11-2007, 05:14 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,013
Default BTU's per dollar

I often wonder about the use of steam to heat a g/h. I saw an old g/h a
few years ago
that had these large pipes going around under the benches. Nobody could tell
me how
they worked & the greenhouse was not in operation. (empty)
Of course one still has to have energy to make the hot water? Did they
not use
hot water pipes in the old days back in England?
Al, I think the energy costs are going to really escalate because there
are more & more
people using it! Water will be next.
Cheers Wendy



"alpickrel" wrote in message
ups.com...
Excuse me. As always I must immediately correct myself: There are
3412 BTU's per kilowatt hour.

1 BTU per kilowatt = 1.05505585 seconds.

The problem with all these
words is that they are measuring something different.


On Nov 7, 7:57 pm, alpickrel wrote:

There are 3412 BTU's of heat per kilowatt. A radiant heater without
fans is pretty much 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat.





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Old 09-11-2007, 06:07 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Default BTU's per dollar

Radient heat from pipes of hot water running along the floor and
heated by a boiler and circulated by a pump is a very efficient way to
use your BTU dollars. Steam is not released into the air. You just
didn't see the boiler unit. It may have been removed if the system
was old and not functioning.

On Nov 9, 11:14 am, "Wendy7" wrote:
I often wonder about the use of steam to heat a g/h. I saw an old g/h a
few years ago
that had these large pipes going around under the benches. Nobody could tell
me how
they worked & the greenhouse was not in operation. (empty)
Of course one still has to have energy to make the hot water? Did they
not use
hot water pipes in the old days back in England?
Al, I think the energy costs are going to really escalate because there
are more & more
people using it! Water will be next.
Cheers Wendy




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Old 09-11-2007, 06:49 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Default BTU's per dollar

On Nov 8, 10:02 pm, "K Barrett" wrote:
Yeah, I pulled the little elecrtic heater out of storage, too. For just in
case. But my gas/electric usage is paltry as compared to yours. I was
tempted not even to post becasue the worst winter we've ever had here is
like summer as compared to your worst winter, *G*. In other words your
winter could eat my winter for lunch. Nevertheless, these costs do mount up
and even I am looking for a winter strategy this year. I raised the
thermostat so the interior gets warmer, warming the 55-gallon drums hotter
(yeah right - I lie to myself constantly) and also hoping the floor bricks
will warm up more & back radiate heat, too. We'll see.

K Barrett


It doesn't make much sense to turn up the heater thermostat to save
fuel. But you mean you turned up a thermostat that delayed the
opening of vents so the sun was able to heat the air inside the
greenhouse to a warmer temperature and insure the water barrel heat-
sinks absorbed maximum BTU's before the sun set and the air
temperature dropped.

A BTU is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one
pound of water one degree. I am sure we are speaking Fahrenheit not
Celsius here but I may be wrong. You can figure out how many usable
BTUs are stored if you know the weight of the water in the barrel and
its temperature relative to your desired air temperature. (I think).
It will not be a very big number. It might surprise you. It is like
9 or 10 BTU's per gallon per degree rise.

The problem is always storing the BTUs in sufficient and cheap
quantities until they are needed.

My first oil tank filling of the season was yesterday. Heat energy
purchased as oil costs cost $2.799 per 141000 BTUs minus 20% for my
heaters inefficiency. My November electric bill also just arrived
too. Heat energy purchased as kilowatt hours costs me .077 cents per
3412 BTU this month. Hell seems to have frozen over and become even
more so in the process.


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Old 09-11-2007, 11:37 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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Posts: 158
Default BTU's per dollar

Wendy, IIRC bottled water is already more expensive, per gallon, than
gasoline. Kenni

"Wendy7" wrote in message
...
Water will be next.
Cheers Wendy



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Old 10-11-2007, 02:05 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2007
Posts: 59
Default BTU's per dollar

When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat

"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
In May of 2007 my heating oil cost $2.50 per gallon.
In May of 2007 my electricity cost .071 cents per kilowatt. (This
number includes all the surcharges and distribution costs state and
local consumption costs, etc.)

There are 141,000 BTU's of heat per gallon of fuel oil. My heater is
80% efficient. This means that 20% of the oil I burn goes some place
other than into heating the air in my greenhouse. (20% of my oil
dollar goes someplace other than into heating the greenhouse air.)

There are 3412 BTU's of heat per kilowatt. A radiant heater without
fans is pretty much 100% efficient in converting electricity to heat.

My question is "How much heat can I buy for the air in my greenhouse
with $1.00 of oil versus $1.00 of electricity at the price of energy
in May 2007?"

My answer is
BTU's per oil dollar: 45120
BTU's per electric dollar: 48056

Scary stuff if my calculations are correct. Oil used to be the most
cost effective fuel for heating. In October of 1999, for example, my
oil cost .96 per gallon and electricity cost .064 cents per kilowatt.
The cost of one fuel is going up much faster than the other.

I cannot hope to generate sufficient BTUs with electricity to heat my
greenhouse this winter, (all my plugs are too small ;-P and I use an
average of 423,000,000 BTUs per winter above what the sun provides)
but if the fuel costs have not changed much this summer and my
calculations are real then it makes some sense to plug in some
electric radiant heaters to help out a bit. And the higher oil goes
in comparrison to electricty the more help those radient heaters can
offer.



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Old 10-11-2007, 03:13 AM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Oct 2007
Posts: 23
Default BTU's per dollar

You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat


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Old 10-11-2007, 03:24 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 479
Default BTU's per dollar

About the least expensive heating method (it's good for cooling, too) I've
ever heard of was published in the AOS Bulletin in the late '70's or '80's.

A guy had an extended trench dug 6' into the ground (or some depth
well-below his frost line), and made a long duct of large, unglazed clay
sewer pipe. One end came up through the floor of the greenhouse, and the
other end was enclosed in a structure above ground. The inlet end was
covered with a mesh and filter to prevent all but air from entering.

A thermostatically-controlled fan in the GH drew air through the submerged
pipe, where the natural subsurface temperature was in the low-'60's F year
round, which is certainly plenty warm for nighttime, with solar heating
boosting the daytime temp. In the summer, he would switch to a cooling
thermostat, drawing that same cool air. That's certainly less maintenance
than a swamp cooler!

The article also discussed how the unglazed clay absorbed the condensed
humidity in the summer, and moistened the air in the winter, but I don't
recall details.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at
the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it
into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat






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Old 10-11-2007, 05:04 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,344
Default BTU's per dollar

Is it 'Project Solar' written by Lee Kuhn from 1978. October 1978, page 891.
Kuhn is/was owner of J&L Orchids at the time. The article goes on for 9
pages. IIRC one of J&L's GHs burned down in the late 90s in midwinter.
There was an article about that in the Bulletin, too.

K Barrett

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:6ajZi.1890$cD.932@trndny08...
About the least expensive heating method (it's good for cooling, too) I've
ever heard of was published in the AOS Bulletin in the late '70's or
'80's.

A guy had an extended trench dug 6' into the ground (or some depth
well-below his frost line), and made a long duct of large, unglazed clay
sewer pipe. One end came up through the floor of the greenhouse, and the
other end was enclosed in a structure above ground. The inlet end was
covered with a mesh and filter to prevent all but air from entering.

A thermostatically-controlled fan in the GH drew air through the submerged
pipe, where the natural subsurface temperature was in the low-'60's F year
round, which is certainly plenty warm for nighttime, with solar heating
boosting the daytime temp. In the summer, he would switch to a cooling
thermostat, drawing that same cool air. That's certainly less maintenance
than a swamp cooler!

The article also discussed how the unglazed clay absorbed the condensed
humidity in the summer, and moistened the air in the winter, but I don't
recall details.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had
the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to
get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at
the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it
into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat






  #12   Report Post  
Old 10-11-2007, 05:12 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,344
Default BTU's per dollar

Kuhn's article says he makes free use of information in a paper written by a
group from Rutgers in 1977. That article is now in a .pdf file about 1/4 of
the way down this page:
http://builditsolar.com/Experimental/experimental.htm

Don't know if it helps, but hey. I love google.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Is it 'Project Solar' written by Lee Kuhn from 1978. October 1978, page
891. Kuhn is/was owner of J&L Orchids at the time. The article goes on
for 9 pages. IIRC one of J&L's GHs burned down in the late 90s in
midwinter. There was an article about that in the Bulletin, too.

K Barrett

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:6ajZi.1890$cD.932@trndny08...
About the least expensive heating method (it's good for cooling, too)
I've ever heard of was published in the AOS Bulletin in the late '70's or
'80's.

A guy had an extended trench dug 6' into the ground (or some depth
well-below his frost line), and made a long duct of large, unglazed clay
sewer pipe. One end came up through the floor of the greenhouse, and the
other end was enclosed in a structure above ground. The inlet end was
covered with a mesh and filter to prevent all but air from entering.

A thermostatically-controlled fan in the GH drew air through the
submerged pipe, where the natural subsurface temperature was in the
low-'60's F year round, which is certainly plenty warm for nighttime,
with solar heating boosting the daytime temp. In the summer, he would
switch to a cooling thermostat, drawing that same cool air. That's
certainly less maintenance than a swamp cooler!

The article also discussed how the unglazed clay absorbed the condensed
humidity in the summer, and moistened the air in the winter, but I don't
recall details.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had
the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my
backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to
get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at
the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it
into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat







  #13   Report Post  
Old 10-11-2007, 05:18 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,344
Default BTU's per dollar

http://builditsolar.com/Experimental/experimental.htm

About 3/4s of the way down this page is a scheme to insulate a hoop GH with
soap bubbles in the interspace between plastic layers.

K Barrett

"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at
the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it
into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat




  #14   Report Post  
Old 10-11-2007, 10:37 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 479
Default BTU's per dollar

Nope. The one on that page is a solar device with other-building storage.
What I was referring to was strictly ground temperature controlled.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Kuhn's article says he makes free use of information in a paper written by
a group from Rutgers in 1977. That article is now in a .pdf file about
1/4 of the way down this page:
http://builditsolar.com/Experimental/experimental.htm

Don't know if it helps, but hey. I love google.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Is it 'Project Solar' written by Lee Kuhn from 1978. October 1978, page
891. Kuhn is/was owner of J&L Orchids at the time. The article goes on
for 9 pages. IIRC one of J&L's GHs burned down in the late 90s in
midwinter. There was an article about that in the Bulletin, too.

K Barrett

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:6ajZi.1890$cD.932@trndny08...
About the least expensive heating method (it's good for cooling, too)
I've ever heard of was published in the AOS Bulletin in the late '70's
or '80's.

A guy had an extended trench dug 6' into the ground (or some depth
well-below his frost line), and made a long duct of large, unglazed clay
sewer pipe. One end came up through the floor of the greenhouse, and
the other end was enclosed in a structure above ground. The inlet end
was covered with a mesh and filter to prevent all but air from entering.

A thermostatically-controlled fan in the GH drew air through the
submerged pipe, where the natural subsurface temperature was in the
low-'60's F year round, which is certainly plenty warm for nighttime,
with solar heating boosting the daytime temp. In the summer, he would
switch to a cooling thermostat, drawing that same cool air. That's
certainly less maintenance than a swamp cooler!

The article also discussed how the unglazed clay absorbed the condensed
humidity in the summer, and moistened the air in the winter, but I don't
recall details.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had
the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my
backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that
backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to
get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes at
the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn it
into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat









  #15   Report Post  
Old 10-11-2007, 11:28 PM posted to rec.gardens.orchids
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,344
Default BTU's per dollar

Oh well. You're on your own.

K

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:zwpZi.1966$NC.1071@trndny07...
Nope. The one on that page is a solar device with other-building storage.
What I was referring to was strictly ground temperature controlled.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Kuhn's article says he makes free use of information in a paper written
by a group from Rutgers in 1977. That article is now in a .pdf file
about 1/4 of the way down this page:
http://builditsolar.com/Experimental/experimental.htm

Don't know if it helps, but hey. I love google.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..
Is it 'Project Solar' written by Lee Kuhn from 1978. October 1978, page
891. Kuhn is/was owner of J&L Orchids at the time. The article goes on
for 9 pages. IIRC one of J&L's GHs burned down in the late 90s in
midwinter. There was an article about that in the Bulletin, too.

K Barrett

"Ray B" wrote in message
news:6ajZi.1890$cD.932@trndny08...
About the least expensive heating method (it's good for cooling, too)
I've ever heard of was published in the AOS Bulletin in the late '70's
or '80's.

A guy had an extended trench dug 6' into the ground (or some depth
well-below his frost line), and made a long duct of large, unglazed
clay sewer pipe. One end came up through the floor of the greenhouse,
and the other end was enclosed in a structure above ground. The inlet
end was covered with a mesh and filter to prevent all but air from
entering.

A thermostatically-controlled fan in the GH drew air through the
submerged pipe, where the natural subsurface temperature was in the
low-'60's F year round, which is certainly plenty warm for nighttime,
with solar heating boosting the daytime temp. In the summer, he would
switch to a cooling thermostat, drawing that same cool air. That's
certainly less maintenance than a swamp cooler!

The article also discussed how the unglazed clay absorbed the condensed
humidity in the summer, and moistened the air in the winter, but I
don't recall details.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"alpickrel" wrote in message
oups.com...
You were smart.

My old hoophouse frame is still standing right next to the
greenhouse. It is 15 x 30 (or so). Just the metal frame right now.
It has grapes growing on it. I have had the idea in the back of my
head to cover it with insualtion and black plastic water circulating
tubes and turn it into a giant solar hot water collector/storage unit
of some kind that I can then use at night to pump the heat into the
greenhouse next to it. The heat sink can't be IN the greenhouse
because to be of any real use, whatever goes in there...a pool or
whatever..., it has to be able to get hot enough to be of use long
after the sun gets off it, so plants won't be able to be grown in
there with it. (now I get K Barrett's joke about lying to herself
about her barrel of water.)

I was staring at my electrical subpanel for the greenhouse this
afternoon and wondering what it would take to run a line large enough
to power an electric heater that would make me feel like I was not
lying to myself when I plugged it in.

I still think a good option is to find a way to drag a big warm
blanket over the greenhouse every night.

I also wondered when somebody with the know how will get the bright
idea of turning clear 6 mil greenhouse plastic film into a giant solar
electric collector sheet. I mean I spend all summer trying to REMOVE
light and heat. It would be nice to be doing something useful with
it. There is talk of a spray-on solar panel.

On Nov 9, 8:05 pm, "Pat Brennan" wrote:
When I put up my last greenhouse I needed a new power service. I had
the
power company run an extra 200 amps of service and used it for my
backup
heating system. The thought that oil now costs the same as that
backup
system is as you said scary stuff.

This greenhouse is one third the size of my others. As we started to
get
into heating season I was able to empty it and turn it off. As oil
continues to rise I am wondering if between the store (which closes
at the
end of the month) and the little greenhouse if I can close a big
greenhouse.
And if I do not need the greenhouse, I am also wondering how I turn
it into
a solar collector. I think I need to do some reading on heat pump
and
transfer systems and swimming pools.

Pat











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