Blue Sarcochilus
 

Any Australians still here? Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read an
article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that Banks
and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.

So my question is, has anyone actually made one? Ever see any?

We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make.
For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. So I wondered if this ever
really happened.

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

I havent seen any personally, but I know of a few people who are still
trying to get a pure THelymitra style blue in many of the genera.

Kye.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
Any Australians still here? Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read an
article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that Banks
and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.

So my question is, has anyone actually made one? Ever see any?

We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make.
For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. So I wondered if this ever
really happened.

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

John Woolf made Sarco John Woolf which is supposedly about as blue as they
get:
http://www.woolforchidculture.com/ma...from=Sarc_Pics

Hope the link works. If not you can see some nice sarcos by following the
'orchid picture' link on the home page to Australian Sarcos. We only see
the white with red barring at the center, whether we're talking
fitzgeraldii, hartmanii, Fitzhart, what have you. I was interested to see
there are yellows, oranges (needs improvement), reds, and blues.

Y'all have a whole differnt world down there, *G*

K Barrett
"BIO-Dex Consulting" wrote in message
...
I havent seen any personally, but I know of a few people who are still
trying to get a pure THelymitra style blue in many of the genera.

Kye.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
...
Any Australians still here? Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read
an article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that
Banks and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.

So my question is, has anyone actually made one? Ever see any?

We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make.
For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. So I wondered if this ever
really happened.

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

On Dec 8, 11:46*am, "K Barrett" wrote:
Any Australians still here? *Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read an
article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that Banks
and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.

So my question is, has anyone actually made one? *Ever see any?

We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make.
For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. *So I wondered if this ever
really happened.

K Barrett

I've only seen photo's but a few Sarco. Susan flowered blue (more of a
pale blue/purple rather than a true blue). The colour doesn't seem to
be passed on to Susan's hybrids though. Yellow seems to be the new
flavour of the month in Sarc breeding.

Blue Sarcochilus
 

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On Dec 8, 11:46 am, "K Barrett" wrote:
Any Australians still here? Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read an
article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that Banks
and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.

So my question is, has anyone actually made one? Ever see any?

We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make.
For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. So I wondered if this ever
really happened.

K Barrett

I've only seen photo's but a few Sarco. Susan flowered blue (more of a
pale blue/purple rather than a true blue). The colour doesn't seem to
be passed on to Susan's hybrids though. Yellow seems to be the new
flavour of the month in Sarc breeding.

----------

There was an article in Orchid Australia saying the blue color came from two
chemicals (a flavoniod and another one) and they had to both be present in
the parental stock in order to pass the blue trait on. And not all parents
had both even though they came from the same cross. I admit I don't really
understand the article so I may be misstating it.

Anyhow, interesting that yellow is the flavor of the month. Looking at
Woolf's page he also has greens & oranges. Yellow is by far the more
intense coloration. Looks like Woolf et al have been working on creating
these lines since the mid 90s. Now there's a guy who can stay focused on a
task, *G*

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

On Dec 10, 3:22*am, "K Barrett" wrote:
There was an article in Orchid Australia saying the blue color came from two
chemicals (a flavoniod and another one) and they had to both be present in
the parental stock in order to pass the blue trait on. *And not all parents
had both even though they came from the same cross. *I admit I don't really
understand the article so I may be misstating it.

While there may be other anthrocyanins (the main flavanoids that
produce red-blue pigments) present in orchids, from what references I
can find, cyanidin seems to be the major anthocyanin that produces
blues in orchids (eg blue Thelymitra, Vanda coerulea etc). I read
through both the Morris article and the Banks and Woolf article that
Morris cites. While the Banks and Woolf idea of blue transmisson does
seem a bit too alchemical, I suspect Morris's thoughts of just needing
the right amount of anthocyanin and co-pigment contributed by
different parents is a bit too simplistic. In the case of a hybrid
like Susan (falcatus x wenthalii) there is little doubt that both
parents contain anthocyanin (how else does falcatus get the red
striping on the labellum) and, given that most other Sarcs contain
anthocyanin, what is it about weinthalii that makes the wenthalii/
falcatus anthocyanin:co-pigment ratio perfect for producing blue tones
that are unable to be replicated in any other falcatus hybrid?
Furthermore, how does the blue carry through to James Woolf when the
addition of harmannii should theoretically add a lot more anthrocyanin
into the mix? No doubt anthocyanins and co-pigments need to be present
to produce blue flowers but I suspect the process is a lot more
complex (ie, the cell conditions needing to favour the necessary ionic
state of the anthocyanin, patterning genes expressing anthocyanin and
co-pigment pathway genes in the right tissue, etc).

Anyhow, interesting that yellow is the flavor of the month. *Looking at
Woolf's page he also has greens & oranges. *Yellow is by far the more
intense coloration. *Looks like Woolf et al have been working on creating
these lines since the mid 90s. *Now there's a guy who can stay focused on a
task, *G*

The colour spectrum of Sarcochilus has expanded dramatically in a
relatively short space of time. Certainly they've done well with
breeding reds. These days you can buy red breeding line seedlings
from quality breeders with good odds that the flower will actually be
red. One of the problems with Sarc breeding is that it's difficult to
get away from using hartmannii or fitzgeraldii in the hybrids. For all
the talk of using falcatus to bring out and spread colours in the
Morris and Banks & Woolf articles, falcatus is still not a
particularly easy plant to maintain long term. Hybrids between it and
the other epiphytic species are not particularly easy to grow (there's
not a lot of hybrid vigour when neither parent is vigorous) so you
still have to rely on hartmannii and fitzgeraldii not to mask, dilute
or centralise the colour.

Blue Sarcochilus
 

"Andrew" wrote in message ...
In the case of a hybrid
like Susan (falcatus x wenthalii) there is little doubt that both
parents contain anthocyanin (how else does falcatus get the red
striping on the labellum) and, given that most other Sarcs contain
anthocyanin, what is it about weinthalii that makes the wenthalii/
falcatus anthocyanin:co-pigment ratio perfect for producing blue tones
that are unable to be replicated in any other falcatus hybrid?

________
Good question. I've been googling like mad looking up Sarco species. There doesn't seem to be much on anything in weinthalii that would lead to blues, does there? I suspect you are right about the co-pigment pathways, genes turning on and off at the right time, ect. I have a feeling Morris may be correct in that a breeder would need to know the individual clone that'll have the proper pathway that leads to blues.

Ha! You inspired me to look it up: Griesbach's article on Custom Colored flowers he states "One of the major reasons why flowers containing the same anthocyanin can be different colors is pH (Stewart et al., 1975). As the pH becomes more alkaline, the color of a specific anthocyanin/co-pigment complex becomes more blue. All the anthocyanins except pelargonidin have the capability of producing blue flowers (Asen, 1976)." (But I suspect you knew that already.) He also points out several other hybrids (like roses etc) that have managed to increase cellular pH in vivo, and so become more blue....so I suppose that pH change is what weinthalii brings to the table. (??) But what do I know....

This stuff always amazes me, but I suppose I shouldn't be so naive. Breeders look for these traits and encourage them. That it happens so quickly in terms of bench time (ie time from flask to flower) and # of generations. especially in these species that often are difficult to grow or thrive, well, I'm always impressed.

Thanks for making me get up off my butt and do some research.

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

On Dec 13, 4:45*am, "K Barrett" wrote:

*I've been googling like mad looking up Sarco species. *There doesn't seem to be much on anything in weinthalii that would lead to blues, does there?

True, although in addition to the expected white to cream fowers,
Weinhart (weinthalii x hartmannii) can also produce mint green
flowers. While both parents have spot patterns in concentric rings,
one of my Weinharts has spots that are arranged in radiating streaks.
It would seem this species has a lot of potential for interesting
hybrids traits that isn't immediately apparent in the species.

Blue Sarcochilus
 

Sounds like it's the pino grape of the orchid world - easily shifting to
other genetic forms somewhat spontaneously.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On Dec 13, 4:45 am, "K Barrett" wrote:

I've been googling like mad looking up Sarco species. There doesn't seem
to be much on anything in weinthalii that would lead to blues, does there?

True, although in addition to the expected white to cream fowers,
Weinhart (weinthalii x hartmannii) can also produce mint green
flowers. While both parents have spot patterns in concentric rings,
one of my Weinharts has spots that are arranged in radiating streaks.
It would seem this species has a lot of potential for interesting
hybrids traits that isn't immediately apparent in the species.

Blue Sarcochilus
 

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On Dec 13, 4:45 am, "K Barrett" wrote:

I've been googling like mad looking up Sarco species. There doesn't seem
to be much on anything in weinthalii that would lead to blues, does there?

True, although in addition to the expected white to cream fowers,
Weinhart (weinthalii x hartmannii) can also produce mint green
flowers. While both parents have spot patterns in concentric rings,
one of my Weinharts has spots that are arranged in radiating streaks.
It would seem this species has a lot of potential for interesting
hybrids traits that isn't immediately apparent in the species.

+++++
Very cool. I stumbled across this article by Roper (a name I see a lot in
the hybrid record) http://www.ssos.org.au/FiveBestSarcCrosses.htm in which
he agrees about the impressive color range from weinthalii hybrids.

I'm just amazed that we don't see more of these in America. I wonder if
that's becasue they are cool or coolish growers and - face it - much of the
US market is biased towards Florida, Texas, California, & Hawaii and what
grows there.

Same with the Australian Promeneas. They are *much* more interesting than
what we see here, I think Prom. Crawshayana (sp) is about as adventurous as
we get. Heck, I could say the same for Australian dendrobiums. There are
many kingianum hybrids that we just don't see here.

K Barrett

Blue Sarcochilus
 

On Dec 15, 3:45*am, "K Barrett" wrote:

I'm just amazed that we don't see more of these in America. *I wonder if
that's becasue they are cool or coolish growers and - face it - much of the
US market is biased towards Florida, Texas, California, & Hawaii and what
grows there.


No doubt it's the same reason why you don't get many other Australian
orchids over there. While there are quite a lot of Sarc breeders in
Australia, most of the really interesting breeding is coming from the
smaller vendors who generally find it's not commercially viable to
export. Where it is financially viable to for them to export, the
minimum orders are cost prohibitive for most people with a budding
interest in Sarc's. Without the nationalistic foundation that has
driven Sarc breeding in Australia, US nurseries probably don't see
importing stock as worth the effort for what is probably a very small
market. Unfortunately, the vendors that are large enough to regularly
attend shows in the US often do not have the most innovative breeding
in their catalogues compared to smaller breeder/vendors.