Just reading the Paph sanderianum thread someone mentioned that it is
recommended that the runts in a flask should be thrown away.

When I grow garden plants I do this because the seed is cheap and I don't
care to find the special new petunia that happens to be the tiny plant.

If I were growing orchids from seed and wanted that new breakthrough plant
that was smaller, or a different color, or bloomed on a naturally smaller
plant, etc. could it be found among these runts?

What do some of you folks who grow from seed think about this?


Good Growing,
Gene

I usually try to grow up the "runts" when I find them in the flask. Also,
not all the seed germinates right away so some of the runts may just be a
bit younger. Just depends on the plants and if I have "enough" with just
the bigger ones.

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
news
Just reading the Paph sanderianum thread someone mentioned that it is
recommended that the runts in a flask should be thrown away.

When I grow garden plants I do this because the seed is cheap and I don't
care to find the special new petunia that happens to be the tiny plant.

If I were growing orchids from seed and wanted that new breakthrough plant
that was smaller, or a different color, or bloomed on a naturally smaller
plant, etc. could it be found among these runts?

What do some of you folks who grow from seed think about this?


Good Growing,
Gene

There are those who say some of the runty Phals and Cattleya, the ones which
are slower to grow to develop, are the 4n plants among the group. 3n plants
are suppose to grow faster than normal plants. Don't know if this is just
more orchid lore or if there is some truth to it.

If you were growing orchids from seed you might have to toss some out
because of the shear number of plants you can find in a flask. I used to be
startled by the billions of orchid seed dust that never got planted or the
thousands of protocorms I let wash down the drain but now I don't even think
about it. I do, however, worry still about the hundreds of 2 and 3 inch
seedlings that never make into compots because there just isn't room. I
have some of the most exotic compost in Leesburg. I wonder if any of these
is actually the one I want, but I can't keep them all and way over 75% of
everything I grow sells before I see it bloom anyway.

Currently I have a greenhouse full of flowering plants in 4 and 5 inch pots.
I may end up throwing some of these out to make room for some of the plants
which must come out of compot and 2.5" pots this spring or get tossed for
lack of room. At least with the 4 and 5 inch pots, I have some idea of
which ones I don't need to keep or try to sell because I have seen them
bloom and they are not worth keeping or selling. Shortly after Mother's Day
I will be making some more of my special compost.

The scary thing I notice is that there are plants which haven't been tossed
yet because I am busy with other things and then a customer comes in and
bypasses the nicely shaped heavily pigmented one with the long spike and
high flower count and buys that runty pale one with the reflexed back
flowers and the torn leaf and tells me it is the prettiest one in the
greenhouse and wonders why I am letting it go so cheep. I'm not kidding.
It happens all the time. I used to try to adjust their point of view as
gently as I could but... Oh well. "It's too FLAT!"

It is a very different perspective now than when I started collecting
compots years ago and every plant was a potential winning lottery ticket.
You can only stuff so many lottery tickets in your pocket before it starts
to cost more to carry them around than you will ever win. As if I can tell
a winning lottery ticket when I am holding it! The judges keep reminding me
that my pocket are stuffed with nothing but paper.

Have a good afternoon everyone. I gotta go pollinate something...

Al


"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
news
Just reading the Paph sanderianum thread someone mentioned that it is
recommended that the runts in a flask should be thrown away.

When I grow garden plants I do this because the seed is cheap and I don't
care to find the special new petunia that happens to be the tiny plant.

If I were growing orchids from seed and wanted that new breakthrough plant
that was smaller, or a different color, or bloomed on a naturally smaller
plant, etc. could it be found among these runts?

What do some of you folks who grow from seed think about this?


Good Growing,
Gene

Gack..don't toss em out Al, have a sale....

--

Hugs,
Molli (counting her pennies for Al's big 'clear em out' sale) grin


"Al" wrote in message
news
Currently I have a greenhouse full of flowering plants in 4 and 5 inch
pots.
I may end up throwing some of these out to make room for some of the
plants
which must come out of compot and 2.5" pots this spring or get tossed for
lack of room. At least with the 4 and 5 inch pots, I have some idea of
which ones I don't need to keep or try to sell because I have seen them
bloom and they are not worth keeping or selling. Shortly after Mother's
Day
I will be making some more of my special compost.

Hmmm....note to self: Go to Al's place for compost....er was that compots

You want to get here early to get the best compost. Bring a big bucket.

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hmmm....note to self: Go to Al's place for compost....er was that compots

Al,

Mark Twain would be proud of you and your pragmatic approach to this whole
orchid thing my boy. Twenty years from now you will be known as a great
junior American philosopher.

Mick

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
news
Just reading the Paph sanderianum thread someone mentioned that it is
recommended that the runts in a flask should be thrown away.

When I grow garden plants I do this because the seed is cheap and I don't
care to find the special new petunia that happens to be the tiny plant.

If I were growing orchids from seed and wanted that new breakthrough plant
that was smaller, or a different color, or bloomed on a naturally smaller
plant, etc. could it be found among these runts?

What do some of you folks who grow from seed think about this?


Good Growing,
Gene

I think it depends on the size of your growing space. Like Jerry said,
you stop when you have "enough". I have a large greenhouse (about 3000 sq
ft) and am constantly buying or making flasks or compots. I'm not commercial
(use to be, but that's another story). But when you have flats of compots
waiting, and you have 4-6" pots that have bloomed of a number of crosses or
species, you've picked what you like best and sold or given gifts of others,
and you still have more, you've got to start tossing or build another
greenhouse. I've also made custom hangers to hang extras everywhere I can
reach with water and fertilizer for those I'm not certain I want to toss
yet. This may seem like heresy to anyone with a smaller growing area who
doesn't grow flasks or compots. But the idea is the same - you grow what you
have room for and there's never enough room. Such is the dilemma of the
orchidphile.

But have any of you found anything special in the runts? Are they inferior
defective plants when they grow up or is that special one-of -a-kind gem
among them?

But have any of you found anything special in the runts? Are they inferior
defective plants when they grow up or is that special one-of -a-kind gem
among them?

I have never found the best plants among the runts- but keep in mind as well
that my most extensive cradle to bloom (and sometimes cradle to grave!)
experience is with Phalaenopsis.

The problem you run into with Paphs on the other hand is that with these
sanderianum and rothschildianum crosses, there is no person on this earth who
can state with any certainty what maturity ranges to expect or how fast/slow
these plants really grow.

And given the slow growth of these plants anyway plus the incredible amount of
breeding within the two species that has taken place, I am not sure there will
ever be a good answer to this question.

Due to their rarity, mystique, dramatic presentation and popularity-
sanderianum and roth have just flat out been explored more fully in sibling
crosses than any other orchid I can name.

So I guess my question is what constitutes a runt with these plants? Hard to
say out of flask. Sanderianum can grow to compot size in a reasonable time, yet
there are also still replates in existence of one of the first known sibling
crosses made in the US (a cross made almost 20 years ago.)

I have spoken with growers who tell tales of sanderianums and rothschildianums
that grew like weeds in flask and compot, only to slow down as seedlings.
Others have reported to me the opposite- claiming the plants really took off
for them once reaching the 6 inch leaf span range. So today's runt could be
tomorrow's champion.

This perhaps is true of all orchids- but we just see it more dramatically in
certain corypetalums (ie sanderianum and rothschildianum) because the demand
and interest in the plants has led to intensive breeding by 100s of people, and
because the value of the plants makes it worthwhile to save every single plant.

In other words, if sanderianums were worth the same as a commercial dendrobium
out of flask (ie 8-15 cents), then perhaps I would not have ever heard of
examples going slow in flask and picking up speed later because there would
have been no incentive for breeders to keep the "flask runts" and attempt to
grow them to maturity.

I think the other issue here regarding runts in general is one of quality
versus quantity.

In the AOS judging program, as most of you know, a plant is awardable based
both on quantity and quality- though admittedly more weight is put on quality.

Hence, how long a plant took to grow to blooming size has no effect on its
awardability. Nor does bloom count or other signs of strong plant presentation
make the total difference.

An FCC grade flower on a plant that is well below average in flower count and
general plant size might still easily garner an AM, and even if it did not- it
would certainly be an attractive potential stud plant for the bloom quality.

So on that basis, all runts are worth saving just in case.

That said, it is my experience the front runners of a cross are where most of
the action is. Within Phalaenopsis, I feel the odds are better with the front
run of a cross.

So how does that translate for the hobbyist?

Two ways for me,

1. When I am buying a block of seedlings of a single cross, I will always
purchase the largest size available (mindful of the fact the breeder has
probably already kept back much of the front run stock for blooming.) If I see
the same grower offering a cross in the same size for more than 1-2 seasons,
then I know I am likely buying the tail end of the cross later and I am less
inclined to purchase.

2. When I am deflasking or compotting, it is all a matter of judgement. I
always attempt to save everything. I usually compot out of flask into compots
with seedlings of similar size. And when I put compots into single pots, I will
put the stragglers into mini-compots of 2-5 plants.

From there what I do all depends. If I am working with 10 compots of a white
Phal cross, then I will probably mini-compot the runts and put them in the fray
with everything else. If I am dealing with something super-expensive or an
endangered species I am trying to propogate and spread around, then I will
spend as much personal time and effort as it is worth to me to keep as many
alive as possible.

Tom.

Runts are runts... pure and simple. In a flask they are easy to spot. All
they do is waste a breeder's time and offer a pipe dream to nowhere.

Mick