Pat,

I agree that expounding more than the chemical companies know is a
disservice, but I didn't do that, and neither did Aaron. I work for a
chemical company and part of my job is doing just that.

The only thing I referred to was Orthenex, which is Orthene and Funginex in
an oil solvent, and Aaron did nothing but point folks to websites containing
something that they might want to consider all by themselves.

I don't know what got your feathers ruffled, but your responses - to Aaron
originally, then to me - seem a bit belligerent, and definitely a disservice
to the folks here.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Ray,

I am in agreement with Aaron, I think Steve has a microfungus. I was
guessing that before I even saw the pictures. I have had microfungus on
phals, I have cured it. But the only way I have successfully cured
microfungus is using a cocktail of chemicals. Two months ago when I
mentioned a cocktail Aaron replied with a post about not mixing chemicals
under the risk of toxic precipitate and wrecked buffers. Not wanting to
hear this crap again, I took my discussion with Steve out of the group. I
just find it maddening that today Aaron is giving pointers to sites
promoting chemical cocktails.

Pretending that you know more then the chemical manufactures or the
directions supplied with the chemicals does a disservice to this group.
Is
the label that comes with the chemical the "precise knowledge" we must
know
or is there more? If we follow the label are we still going to create
toxic
precipitate? If I am Steve, who or what do I believe?

Chemical labels includes a section on compatibility and yes you better
read
them and follow the directions. Randomly mixing any chemicals is a dumb
idea. But, when you take copper out of the mix, it seems that most of the
chemicals I commonly use are compatible. I am not making that up, it is
what the labels say, it is what experience has shown. Some of the more
common cocktails are even marketed as a single product, Spectro and
Banrot
to name two.

BTW, I highly recommend Spectro which is a cocktail of 3336 and Daconil as
a
broad spectrum fungicide.

Sorry about the double post, I would blame my ISP but who would believe
me.

From someone introduced to Griesbach's Blitz at a very young age,

Pat

This term "microfungus" is new to me. I looked at the pictures on Steve's
website again with this is mind and wonder why there seems to be so many
different expressions of damage? It is hard to see all of the various
damage symptoms as common to one organism, but I suppose it is possible. I
did a websearch and found a few bits of information. I want to know whether
this is an organism that lives IN and spreads though the plant or if it live
ON the plant's surface tissue. Fungi, as I understand them have several
life stages. At some point it has to reproduce and would make fruiting
bodies at the surface of the leaf that would spread it to new plants. If
the "mycelium stage" of the fungus lives inside the plant and travels from
cell to cell than wouldn't you need to target it with some kind of systemic
fungicide that the plant could absorb rather than a topical fungicide that?
Is it living off the tissue like a parasite or just clogging transport of
nutrients and water as it grows from cell to cell, and tissue type to tissue
type etc?

How is a microfungus different from the regular fungus that we as orchid
growers are always battling? (You know, the stuff we call 'rots' and which
could as likely be a bacterial infection.)

Is Physan systemic? I know it kills spores on surfaces but would it have
any effect on fungus growing inside and being protected by the plant tissue
from coming into contact with the chemical? This may be the reason behind
the cocktail idea, one to kill the spores outside the plant and one to kill
the actual fungus inside the plant. Daconil is systemic, right? Is there
another reason why a cocktail is necessary? (We don't really know what it
is so we hit is with everything we've got?) :-)

You don't necessarily have to MIX the chemicals to have them both available
for use. You might be better off to separate their application by a few
days to produce the desired effect.


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Ray,

I am in agreement with Aaron, I think Steve has a microfungus. I was
guessing that before I even saw the pictures. I have had microfungus on
phals, I have cured it. But the only way I have successfully cured
microfungus is using a cocktail of chemicals. Two months ago when I
mentioned a cocktail Aaron replied with a post about not mixing chemicals
under the risk of toxic precipitate and wrecked buffers. Not wanting to
hear this crap again, I took my discussion with Steve out of the group. I
just find it maddening that today Aaron is giving pointers to sites
promoting chemical cocktails.

Pretending that you know more then the chemical manufactures or the
directions supplied with the chemicals does a disservice to this group.
Is
the label that comes with the chemical the "precise knowledge" we must
know
or is there more? If we follow the label are we still going to create
toxic
precipitate? If I am Steve, who or what do I believe?

Chemical labels includes a section on compatibility and yes you better
read
them and follow the directions. Randomly mixing any chemicals is a dumb
idea. But, when you take copper out of the mix, it seems that most of the
chemicals I commonly use are compatible. I am not making that up, it is
what the labels say, it is what experience has shown. Some of the more
common cocktails are even marketed as a single product, Spectro and
Banrot
to name two.

BTW, I highly recommend Spectro which is a cocktail of 3336 and Daconil as
a
broad spectrum fungicide.

Sorry about the double post, I would blame my ISP but who would believe
me.

From someone introduced to Griesbach's Blitz at a very young age,

Pat

Al wrote:

...........................
Is Physan systemic? I know it kills spores on surfaces but would it have
any effect on fungus growing inside and being protected by the plant tissue
from coming into contact with the chemical? This may be the reason behind
the cocktail idea, one to kill the spores outside the plant and one to kill
the actual fungus inside the plant. Daconil is systemic, right? Is there
another reason why a cocktail is necessary? (We don't really know what it
is so we hit is with everything we've got?) :-)

Al, I was thinking the same thing. If this microfungus is a single
organism, it might be that a single product will cure it. It might be
that this is a problem that isn't figured out yet and nobody has stayed
with one product long enough to find out that it's the one that works.

As far as my plants having different problems, I believe they do. The
pitting that seems to be from this microfungus is what started first but
I think one or more other rots have invaded through these injured areas.
This second disease my be spreading first to some of the other plants.

Steve

Thanks Aaron. I saw your post this morning but didn't get time to read
the articles you gave links to until now. That first one certainly seems
to describe exactly what I have in my Phals. I think I need to get my
hands on some Funginex next and see what that can do. I find it hard to
believe I need to add one of the insecticides to the Funginex to make it
work. I'll keep an open mind on that however.

Steve

Aaron Hicks wrote:

Not that I've ever seen it myself, but I am reminded of the
mysterious "microfungus" that has been described elsewhe

http://www.orchidmall.com/general/microfun.htm

One curative consists of Ortho malathion and Funginex:

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Recreation.../magnov95.html

Another alternates 3 fungicides:

http://www.soos.ca/Newsletters/2002/May2002News.htm
...................

Found these definitions on a website dedicated to fungus:

http://www.plant.uga.edu/mycology-herbarium/whatis.htm

Macrofungus (macromycete) - The term macrofungus is used for large fungi
that are readily visible to the unaided eye, such as the mushrooms,
puffballs, and many cup fungi. Even so, detailed study of macrofungi must be
conducted with the aid of a microscope, due to the small size of the
reproductive structures.

Microfungus (micromycete) - The term microfungus, meaning small fungus, is
used for fungi in which a microscope must be used for even casual
observation of the spore-producing structures. The majority of fungi are
microfungi and their study requires experience with the use of microscopes.

If this is the only meaning to the term and if it does not refer to a
specific fungus or group of fungus than "microfungus" means nothing
different from the term "fungus" as I generally see it used in this
newsgroup and applied to fungual infections of our plants. Of coarse there
are probably lots of fungus pathogens that do other nasty things to our
plants besides cause rot.

"Al" wrote in message news:...
How is a microfungus different from the regular fungus that we as orchid
growers are always battling? (You know, the stuff we call 'rots' and
which
could as likely be a bacterial infection.)

Al wrote:
...................................
Microfungus (micromycete) - The term microfungus, meaning small fungus, is
used for fungi in which a microscope must be used for even casual
observation of the spore-producing structures. The majority of fungi are
microfungi and their study requires experience with the use of microscopes.

If this is the only meaning to the term and if it does not refer to a
specific fungus or group of fungus than "microfungus" means nothing
different from the term "fungus" as I generally see it used in this
newsgroup and applied to fungual infections of our plants............
.......................

Al, that's interesting.
Obviously, the term microfungus somehow came to mean something else
among some orchid growers. I wonder if it was a misunderstanding at some
point.

Steve

jerry bolce wrote:

This looks just like the fungus that infected my phals a few years back
and it also spreads to Cattleyas, oncidiums, etc.

I found that I needed to soak the plants regularly with Funginex for
many waterings or the fungus would just continue in the new leaves. You
need to treat the other plants also, maybe not as frequently if they
have no symptoms...........

Thanks Jerry. It sounds like Funginex is the treatment I am looking for.
At least I have something to try.

Steve
PS If anyone knows of an online source for Funginex, let me know. A
quick search didn't locate a source, though I can look more. The nearest
store that might possibly have it requires hours in the car driving from
here.

Judy CA wrote:

....................
I'm usually a lurker but I thought I'd reply as I have one phal (out
of 40) that displays these same symptoms. I've had it for two years
now and it's actually two phals connected in one s/h pot.

Anyways, Spring of '02 both phals started getting the yellow leaves
with black pitting. When it first started it was sudden. Lowest leaf
on both phals, then the next lowest leaf. Sunken yellow spots turning
to black. I isolated it to another room and sprayed with funginex.
That seemed to stop it. No more spread to the other leaves.
.......................

Thanks for emerging from lurk mode. Your post adds yet more evidence
that I should try Funginex.

Steve

You forgot the trick of searching within your results and adding the word
'price'

K Barrett

"Steve" wrote in message
t...


jerry bolce wrote:

This looks just like the fungus that infected my phals a few years back
and it also spreads to Cattleyas, oncidiums, etc.

I found that I needed to soak the plants regularly with Funginex for
many waterings or the fungus would just continue in the new leaves. You
need to treat the other plants also, maybe not as frequently if they
have no symptoms...........

Thanks Jerry. It sounds like Funginex is the treatment I am looking for.
At least I have something to try.

Steve
PS If anyone knows of an online source for Funginex, let me know. A
quick search didn't locate a source, though I can look more. The nearest
store that might possibly have it requires hours in the car driving from
here.

I received two personal emails that lead me to believe that microfungus is
the name given to the fungus organism or group of fungus organisms that
produce the symptoms you see in your first picture. One of the emails
mentioned that the symptoms shown in your first picture, third picture and
sixth picture to be those associated with mircofungus. I am guessing that
while fungus which produce rots are microfungus by this website's
definition, I think mircofungus, as the word is used here, is meant to
exclude the fungus that we typically refer to when we are talking about
'rots' and to refer to the fungus that cause a specific type of symptom. If
I get any more emails that shed more light on the subject, I'll let you
know.

If you ever had mites, the hort oil probably took care of them. Even a
small mite infestation can be easily followed by fungus, bacterial and virus
problems. They spread these pathogens and they leave lots of open wounds
that these pathogens can use to enter the plant. Physan will not destroy
any of these pathogen once they are *inside* the plant tissue. I have been
informed that it is not systemic. It can only destroy the pathogens on the
outside of the plants to stop them from getting in.

Burn you whole collection. In fact burn down your house. ...and then wash
hands with hot soapy water. You can buy a new house and start a new orchid
collection tomorrow.

"Steve" wrote in message
t...


Al wrote:
...................................
Microfungus (micromycete) - The term microfungus, meaning small fungus,
is
used for fungi in which a microscope must be used for even casual
observation of the spore-producing structures. The majority of fungi are
microfungi and their study requires experience with the use of
microscopes.

If this is the only meaning to the term and if it does not refer to a
specific fungus or group of fungus than "microfungus" means nothing
different from the term "fungus" as I generally see it used in this
newsgroup and applied to fungual infections of our plants............
......................

Al, that's interesting.
Obviously, the term microfungus somehow came to mean something else
among some orchid growers. I wonder if it was a misunderstanding at some
point.

Steve

jerry bolce wrote:

This looks just like the fungus that infected my phals a few years back
and it also spreads to Cattleyas, oncidiums, etc.

I found that I needed to soak the plants regularly with Funginex for
many waterings or the fungus would just continue in the new leaves. You
need to treat the other plants also, maybe not as frequently if they
have no symptoms...........

Thanks Jerry. It sounds like Funginex is the treatment I am looking for.
At least I have something to try.

Steve
PS If anyone knows of an online source for Funginex, let me know. A
quick search didn't locate a source, though I can look more. The nearest
store that might possibly have it requires hours in the car driving from
here.

Judy CA wrote:

....................
I'm usually a lurker but I thought I'd reply as I have one phal (out
of 40) that displays these same symptoms. I've had it for two years
now and it's actually two phals connected in one s/h pot.

Anyways, Spring of '02 both phals started getting the yellow leaves
with black pitting. When it first started it was sudden. Lowest leaf
on both phals, then the next lowest leaf. Sunken yellow spots turning
to black. I isolated it to another room and sprayed with funginex.
That seemed to stop it. No more spread to the other leaves.
.......................

Thanks for emerging from lurk mode. Your post adds yet more evidence
that I should try Funginex.

Steve

You forgot the trick of searching within your results and adding the word
'price'

K Barrett

"Steve" wrote in message
t...


jerry bolce wrote:

This looks just like the fungus that infected my phals a few years back
and it also spreads to Cattleyas, oncidiums, etc.

I found that I needed to soak the plants regularly with Funginex for
many waterings or the fungus would just continue in the new leaves. You
need to treat the other plants also, maybe not as frequently if they
have no symptoms...........

Thanks Jerry. It sounds like Funginex is the treatment I am looking for.
At least I have something to try.

Steve
PS If anyone knows of an online source for Funginex, let me know. A
quick search didn't locate a source, though I can look more. The nearest
store that might possibly have it requires hours in the car driving from
here.

I received two personal emails that lead me to believe that microfungus is
the name given to the fungus organism or group of fungus organisms that
produce the symptoms you see in your first picture. One of the emails
mentioned that the symptoms shown in your first picture, third picture and
sixth picture to be those associated with mircofungus. I am guessing that
while fungus which produce rots are microfungus by this website's
definition, I think mircofungus, as the word is used here, is meant to
exclude the fungus that we typically refer to when we are talking about
'rots' and to refer to the fungus that cause a specific type of symptom. If
I get any more emails that shed more light on the subject, I'll let you
know.

If you ever had mites, the hort oil probably took care of them. Even a
small mite infestation can be easily followed by fungus, bacterial and virus
problems. They spread these pathogens and they leave lots of open wounds
that these pathogens can use to enter the plant. Physan will not destroy
any of these pathogen once they are *inside* the plant tissue. I have been
informed that it is not systemic. It can only destroy the pathogens on the
outside of the plants to stop them from getting in.

Burn you whole collection. In fact burn down your house. ...and then wash
hands with hot soapy water. You can buy a new house and start a new orchid
collection tomorrow.

"Steve" wrote in message
t...


Al wrote:
...................................
Microfungus (micromycete) - The term microfungus, meaning small fungus,
is
used for fungi in which a microscope must be used for even casual
observation of the spore-producing structures. The majority of fungi are
microfungi and their study requires experience with the use of
microscopes.

If this is the only meaning to the term and if it does not refer to a
specific fungus or group of fungus than "microfungus" means nothing
different from the term "fungus" as I generally see it used in this
newsgroup and applied to fungual infections of our plants............
......................

Al, that's interesting.
Obviously, the term microfungus somehow came to mean something else
among some orchid growers. I wonder if it was a misunderstanding at some
point.

Steve

jerry bolce wrote:

This looks just like the fungus that infected my phals a few years back
and it also spreads to Cattleyas, oncidiums, etc.

I found that I needed to soak the plants regularly with Funginex for
many waterings or the fungus would just continue in the new leaves. You
need to treat the other plants also, maybe not as frequently if they
have no symptoms...........

Thanks Jerry. It sounds like Funginex is the treatment I am looking for.
At least I have something to try.

Steve
PS If anyone knows of an online source for Funginex, let me know. A
quick search didn't locate a source, though I can look more. The nearest
store that might possibly have it requires hours in the car driving from
here.