K Barrett wrote:

I reviewed my notes from Janice Uchida's talk at the ASHA convention in
2001. I seem to recall she said that the mycelium stage infects the host
bodily. By the time we see the effects of this infection the host is toast,
................


Sound more aggressive than what I have. Symptoms have been around for a
year and only 2 dead plants to date. Also, the pictures were of the
worst. I have 3 or 4 plants (of the original 20) that still have all
their leaves and minor symptoms compared to the worst ones.


Funginex is now sold by Ortho as "Rose Pride Rose & Shrub Disease Control".
The active ingredient is the Triforine that Pat Brennan thought was no
longer in production. (present at 6.5%).


:-) Just 2 minutes ago, I posted that same info in a new thread. I
should have come here first.


I will search to see if triforine is systemic or not. I'm betting 'not'.


Page 2 of the label directions says: " ... is absorbed by leaves and
stems for internal protection that won't wash off..."

Kathy, thank you for continuing to look into this. The more we know the
better!

Steve

K Barrett wrote:

I hope Pat replies to the group, as I have found this discussion *very*
enlightening. Thanks to Steve for bringing it up.

K Barrett

I might have preferred that someone else have the problem and start the
thread. ;-)
Glad to be of service.

Steve

This is from Gordon's survey book (1988):

Day One: Cocktail of Subdue 1 tsp/5 gal and
Bayleton 25% WP (Strike) 4 tsp/5 gal
Day Two: Triforine (Funginex) 4 tsp/5 gal *****
Repeat after thirty day

At this point the spreading of the yellow pitting should stop and plant
vigor should be returning. The damaged tissue will never be repaired.

This part is based on my experience:

Keep a very close eye on the plants and at the very first signs of trouble
repeat the complete 30 therapy. I found that you would often think you had
taken care of the problem only to have it start reappearing after 4 to 6
months. I do not think I ever had to treat a plant with three reps.

*****Watch it, Triforine and Funginex were different strengths and it was
never clear in the book which product he was giving the directions for. I
always used the recommended dose on the label. Also watch Subdue, it is
available in a couple of different forms now. Follow the label and use the
above doses to check your ability to convert the X per 100 gallons on the
label to the y per 5 gallons that you need.

Gordon's book credits Griesbach, Miller, and Baker for the preliminarily
identification of microfungus and the above therapy. The book also quotes
Tom Harper as :

"Phal growers may be facing a major newly-discovered problem. This is the
yellow pitting, necrotic spotting of the leaves, preliminarily diagnosed by
John Miller and Rob Griesbach as a micro-fungus.

I have seen it in a number of collections. I have seen it infect entire
collections, resulting in the plants eventual demise or destruction by the
grower. It appears to be a problem out of control for some people. Growers
who have followed various recommendations on ridding their collections of
this problem have largely been unsuccessful. Nothing sprayed, drenched or
applied in any matter seems to make any inroads on the disease."

I remember trying everything I could find and the best result was progress
was slowed for a while. All and all the disease's progress is pretty slow
and you get to try lots of stuff. I know I had Subude and Triforine in house
and I expect I tried both alone against it. The above therapy was the only
thing I found that worked but I quit looking after I saw it working.

Of the three chemicals I know two are still available. Steve will have to
tell us if he was able to find Funginex, I do not see Triforine in my supply
catalogs any more.

Pat


"K Barrett" wrote in message
.net...
I hope Pat replies to the group, as I have found this discussion *very*
enlightening. Thanks to Steve for bringing it up.

K Barrett
"Jerry Hoffmeister" wrote in message
...
Well I'm curious what the "cocktail" you used was. If you don't want to
reply to the NG, just reply directly to me...

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Ray,

I am in agreement with Aaron, I think Steve has a microfungus. I was
guessing that before I even saw the pictures. I have had microfungus
on
phals, I have cured it. But the only way I have successfully cured
microfungus is using a cocktail of chemicals. Two months ago when I
mentioned a cocktail Aaron replied with a post about not mixing
chemicals
under the risk of toxic precipitate and wrecked buffers. Not wanting
to
hear this crap again, I took my discussion with Steve out of the
group.
I
just find it maddening that today Aaron is giving pointers to sites
promoting chemical cocktails.

Pretending that you know more then the chemical manufactures or the
directions supplied with the chemicals does a disservice to this
group.
Is
the label that comes with the chemical the "precise knowledge" we must
know
or is there more? If we follow the label are we still going to create
toxic
precipitate? If I am Steve, who or what do I believe?

Chemical labels includes a section on compatibility and yes you better
read
them and follow the directions. Randomly mixing any chemicals is a
dumb
idea. But, when you take copper out of the mix, it seems that most of
the
chemicals I commonly use are compatible. I am not making that up, it
is
what the labels say, it is what experience has shown. Some of the
more
common cocktails are even marketed as a single product, Spectro and
Banrot
to name two.

BTW, I highly recommend Spectro which is a cocktail of 3336 and
Daconil
as
a
broad spectrum fungicide.

Sorry about the double post, I would blame my ISP but who would
believe
me.

From someone introduced to Griesbach's Blitz at a very young age,

Pat

Ok, let me try to do this without confusing my self.

There is a chemical called Triforine. It was sold under two labels;
Funginex for the homeowner market and Triforine for the commercial market.
The product Triforine contained 18.2% of the chemical Triforine. The
product Triforine is no longer listed in my supply catalogs. The chemical
Triforine may very well still be available under a commercial label, it is
just not being sold as the product triforine. My guess is the chemical
Triforine is no longer labeled for in greenhouse use. That has happened to
a couple of other chemical over the last few years.

"K Barrett" wrote and I took out everything I wanted to in message
et...

Funginex is now sold by Ortho as "Rose Pride Rose & Shrub Disease
Control".
The active ingredient is the Triforine that Pat Brennan thought was no
longer in production. (present at 6.5%).


Ok, let me try to do this without confusing my self.

There is a chemical called Triforine. It was sold under two labels;
Funginex for the homeowner market and Triforine for the commercial market.
The product Triforine contained 18.2% of the chemical Triforine (I still
have a bottle). The product Triforine is no longer listed in my supply
catalogs. The chemical Triforine may very well still be available under
another commercial label, it is just not being sold as the product
Triforine. My guess is the chemical Triforine is no longer labeled for in
greenhouse use. That has happened to a couple of other chemical over the
last few years.

Pat

Yes, I looked around and found that Funginex (triforine) is systemic, and
Daconil is topical.. Took a while before I could find a governmental page
with that info. There were many pages writen by individuals that had
competing information on them (systemic vs contact) which is why I decided
to go with whatever was on a government page. Dear God I hope I'm not the
victim of government mis-information, LOL!

K Barrett

"Jerry Hoffmeister" wrote in message
news:ikP4b.328238$uu5.66903@sccrnsc04...
I'm pretty sure I remember from my chemical rose growing days that it is a
systemic.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
et...
I reviewed my notes from Janice Uchida's talk at the ASHA convention in
2001. I seem to recall she said that the mycelium stage infects the host
bodily. By the time we see the effects of this infection the host is
toast,
the mycellium has gone on to produce fruiting bodies by the time we see
sunken spots (or whatever) and has spred spores. These spores spread to
adjacent plants and poof. She told of how whole GHs of Hawaiian cut
flower
dendrobiums will wilt overnight into mush. She said prevention is the
cure,
via cleanliness.

I have no idea whether that helps Steve out.

Funginex is now sold by Ortho as "Rose Pride Rose & Shrub Disease
Control".
The active ingredient is the Triforine that Pat Brennan thought was no
longer in production. (present at 6.5%).

According to package directions it can be mixed with Ortho Malathione
Plus
and Ortho Diazinone Ultra - follow label rates.

I will search to see if triforine is systemic or not. I'm betting 'not'.

K Barrett

"Al" wrote in message
...
This term "microfungus" is new to me. I looked at the pictures on
Steve's
website again with this is mind and wonder why there seems to be so
many
different expressions of damage? It is hard to see all of the various
damage symptoms as common to one organism, but I suppose it is
possible.
I
did a websearch and found a few bits of information. I want to know
whether
this is an organism that lives IN and spreads though the plant or if
it
live
ON the plant's surface tissue. Fungi, as I understand them have
several
life stages. At some point it has to reproduce and would make
fruiting
bodies at the surface of the leaf that would spread it to new plants.
If
the "mycelium stage" of the fungus lives inside the plant and travels
from
cell to cell than wouldn't you need to target it with some kind of
systemic
fungicide that the plant could absorb rather than a topical fungicide
that?
Is it living off the tissue like a parasite or just clogging transport
of
nutrients and water as it grows from cell to cell, and tissue type to
tissue
type etc?

How is a microfungus different from the regular fungus that we as
orchid
growers are always battling? (You know, the stuff we call 'rots' and
which
could as likely be a bacterial infection.)

Is Physan systemic? I know it kills spores on surfaces but would it
have
any effect on fungus growing inside and being protected by the plant
tissue
from coming into contact with the chemical? This may be the reason
behind
the cocktail idea, one to kill the spores outside the plant and one to
kill
the actual fungus inside the plant. Daconil is systemic, right? Is
there
another reason why a cocktail is necessary? (We don't really know
what
it
is so we hit is with everything we've got?) :-)

You don't necessarily have to MIX the chemicals to have them both
available
for use. You might be better off to separate their application by a
few
days to produce the desired effect.


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Ray,

I am in agreement with Aaron, I think Steve has a microfungus. I
was
guessing that before I even saw the pictures. I have had
microfungus
on
phals, I have cured it. But the only way I have successfully cured
microfungus is using a cocktail of chemicals. Two months ago when I
mentioned a cocktail Aaron replied with a post about not mixing
chemicals
under the risk of toxic precipitate and wrecked buffers. Not
wanting
to
hear this crap again, I took my discussion with Steve out of the
group.
I
just find it maddening that today Aaron is giving pointers to sites
promoting chemical cocktails.

Pretending that you know more then the chemical manufactures or the
directions supplied with the chemicals does a disservice to this
group.
Is
the label that comes with the chemical the "precise knowledge" we
must
know
or is there more? If we follow the label are we still going to
create
toxic
precipitate? If I am Steve, who or what do I believe?

Chemical labels includes a section on compatibility and yes you
better
read
them and follow the directions. Randomly mixing any chemicals is a
dumb
idea. But, when you take copper out of the mix, it seems that most
of
the
chemicals I commonly use are compatible. I am not making that up,
it
is
what the labels say, it is what experience has shown. Some of the
more
common cocktails are even marketed as a single product, Spectro and
Banrot
to name two.

BTW, I highly recommend Spectro which is a cocktail of 3336 and
Daconil
as
a
broad spectrum fungicide.

Sorry about the double post, I would blame my ISP but who would
believe
me.

From someone introduced to Griesbach's Blitz at a very young age,

Pat

Not I believe Steve bought some and on reading the label, came to the
same conclusion. I'm going to try Physan and Phyton 27 (week apart) and see
how it goes...

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:0Y25b.332889$o%2.152996@sccrnsc02...
Yes, I looked around and found that Funginex (triforine) is systemic, and
Daconil is topical.. Took a while before I could find a governmental page
with that info. There were many pages writen by individuals that had
competing information on them (systemic vs contact) which is why I decided
to go with whatever was on a government page. Dear God I hope I'm not the
victim of government mis-information, LOL!

K Barrett

"Jerry Hoffmeister" wrote in message
news:ikP4b.328238$uu5.66903@sccrnsc04...
I'm pretty sure I remember from my chemical rose growing days that it is
a
systemic.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
et...
I reviewed my notes from Janice Uchida's talk at the ASHA convention
in
2001. I seem to recall she said that the mycelium stage infects the
host
bodily. By the time we see the effects of this infection the host is
toast,
the mycellium has gone on to produce fruiting bodies by the time we
see
sunken spots (or whatever) and has spred spores. These spores spread
to
adjacent plants and poof. She told of how whole GHs of Hawaiian cut
flower
dendrobiums will wilt overnight into mush. She said prevention is the
cure,
via cleanliness.

I have no idea whether that helps Steve out.

Funginex is now sold by Ortho as "Rose Pride Rose & Shrub Disease
Control".
The active ingredient is the Triforine that Pat Brennan thought was no
longer in production. (present at 6.5%).

According to package directions it can be mixed with Ortho Malathione
Plus
and Ortho Diazinone Ultra - follow label rates.

I will search to see if triforine is systemic or not. I'm betting
'not'.

K Barrett

"Al" wrote in message
...
This term "microfungus" is new to me. I looked at the pictures on
Steve's
website again with this is mind and wonder why there seems to be so
many
different expressions of damage? It is hard to see all of the
various
damage symptoms as common to one organism, but I suppose it is
possible.
I
did a websearch and found a few bits of information. I want to know
whether
this is an organism that lives IN and spreads though the plant or if
it
live
ON the plant's surface tissue. Fungi, as I understand them have
several
life stages. At some point it has to reproduce and would make
fruiting
bodies at the surface of the leaf that would spread it to new
plants.
If
the "mycelium stage" of the fungus lives inside the plant and
travels
from
cell to cell than wouldn't you need to target it with some kind of
systemic
fungicide that the plant could absorb rather than a topical
fungicide
that?
Is it living off the tissue like a parasite or just clogging
transport
of
nutrients and water as it grows from cell to cell, and tissue type
to
tissue
type etc?

How is a microfungus different from the regular fungus that we as
orchid
growers are always battling? (You know, the stuff we call 'rots'
and
which
could as likely be a bacterial infection.)

Is Physan systemic? I know it kills spores on surfaces but would it
have
any effect on fungus growing inside and being protected by the plant
tissue
from coming into contact with the chemical? This may be the reason
behind
the cocktail idea, one to kill the spores outside the plant and one
to
kill
the actual fungus inside the plant. Daconil is systemic, right? Is
there
another reason why a cocktail is necessary? (We don't really know
what
it
is so we hit is with everything we've got?) :-)

You don't necessarily have to MIX the chemicals to have them both
available
for use. You might be better off to separate their application by a
few
days to produce the desired effect.


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Ray,

I am in agreement with Aaron, I think Steve has a microfungus. I
was
guessing that before I even saw the pictures. I have had
microfungus
on
phals, I have cured it. But the only way I have successfully
cured
microfungus is using a cocktail of chemicals. Two months ago when
I
mentioned a cocktail Aaron replied with a post about not mixing
chemicals
under the risk of toxic precipitate and wrecked buffers. Not
wanting
to
hear this crap again, I took my discussion with Steve out of the
group.
I
just find it maddening that today Aaron is giving pointers to
sites
promoting chemical cocktails.

Pretending that you know more then the chemical manufactures or
the
directions supplied with the chemicals does a disservice to this
group.
Is
the label that comes with the chemical the "precise knowledge" we
must
know
or is there more? If we follow the label are we still going to
create
toxic
precipitate? If I am Steve, who or what do I believe?

Chemical labels includes a section on compatibility and yes you
better
read
them and follow the directions. Randomly mixing any chemicals is
a
dumb
idea. But, when you take copper out of the mix, it seems that
most
of
the
chemicals I commonly use are compatible. I am not making that up,
it
is
what the labels say, it is what experience has shown. Some of the
more
common cocktails are even marketed as a single product, Spectro
and
Banrot
to name two.

BTW, I highly recommend Spectro which is a cocktail of 3336 and
Daconil
as
a
broad spectrum fungicide.

Sorry about the double post, I would blame my ISP but who would
believe
me.

From someone introduced to Griesbach's Blitz at a very young age,

Pat