Hello,

I have soil in my yard that is 8+ PH and
I want to lower that PH to about 7 without
generating salts that will damage the tree
I want to plant. The tree is a Bauhinia.
This soil is so alkali that if you pour
a little vinegar on it , it will bubble
like crazy. Can anyone tell me the best
way to acidify my soil to a neutral PH
close to 7 without generating salts
dangerous to plants ?

What I really need is to get input from
a soil scientist but there are no newsgroups
on my server catering to horticulture or
soil science.

--
Sincerely,
gmv
No Emails, Possible Spams.

If your server gets rec.gardens.orchids, I would wager it has or could
easily get rec.gardens, rec.gardens.ecosystems, among several others. But
you will likely get useful answers from either of the two mentioned above.

But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that. If you bought the tree locally where you
live, the vendor ought to be able to advise, and supply whatever you need.
If he doesn't he has done you a disservice selling you a plant that is not
likely to thrive in the conditions you can easily provide for it (or he will
have if he sells such a plant to you).

Cheers,

Ted

"gmv" wrote in message
news
Hello,

I have soil in my yard that is 8+ PH and
I want to lower that PH to about 7 without
generating salts that will damage the tree
I want to plant. The tree is a Bauhinia.
This soil is so alkali that if you pour
a little vinegar on it , it will bubble
like crazy. Can anyone tell me the best
way to acidify my soil to a neutral PH
close to 7 without generating salts
dangerous to plants ?

What I really need is to get input from
a soil scientist but there are no newsgroups
on my server catering to horticulture or
soil science.

--
Sincerely,
gmv
No Emails, Possible Spams.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:

But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.

Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg

Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

I figured such.
Maybe the only way is to scrape off the top soil
and replace it with a whole different kind
this thing is much too expensive so I guess
planting anything that likes the 7 range PH or less
is out of the question.

"Dewitt" typed in message ...
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:

But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.

Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg

The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.
The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.
I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



"Rob Halgren" typed in message ...
Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.
The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.
I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



"Rob Halgren" typed in message ...
Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Hi "gmv" I have one of these trees in the family of Caesalpiniaceae?
I got it as a stick about 15" long put it in the ground about 20 years ago!
We now have to pay big bucks to have it removed. It is damaging the brick
planter bed & the concrete sidewalk.
I wished I had put it in a large container. I am sure it will do well as a
giant bonsai tree. Grown in say about half a 55 gal drum or whiskey barrel.
Cheers Wendy

"gmv" wrote in message ...
The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.
The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.
I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



"Rob Halgren" typed in message ...
Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

gmv wrote:

The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.


Don't know that one, way out of my zone...

The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.


Sort of, but the 'mick-alarm' didn't go off, so no harm no foul. *grin*

I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



Where there is a will, there is a way... Go to the nursery, buy
several bags of compressed peat (the brown stuff). Put down 6" plus of
peat over the planting area, and till or dig it in. Dig it in pretty
deep. Plant your tree, and mulch it in well with several inches of bark
chips or something else that will rot. Not only is that nice looking,
but good for the plant, regardless of the pH of the soil. What is the
worst that can happen? It dies and you buy another dozen bags of peat
and replant... You will get there eventually.

This might just be the right place. Orchid growers are well known
for being either too stupid or too stubborn to stick to what grows well
under their conditions. If bauhinia was an orchid, you can bet that
somebody in northern Manitoba would have built a $10,000 greenhouse
specifically for it, trucked in 4 dozen yards of premium amazon
rainforest dirt at 1000 bucks a yard, and installed football stadium
lights outside the greenhouse to help with those long nights... Orchid
people are idiots... *grin*

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
lights outside the greenhouse to help with those long nights... Orchid
people are idiots... *grin*

Maybe it is a question of having more dollars than sense. ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

do like this
& = peat
# = normal compost
above side
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &###### Tree ##########&
&#####################& &###### roots ##########&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&###### Tree ##########& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

make sure it is allot of room for the tree rootsystem to grow that way it
will not come in contact with the alkaline soil.
Peat will create a sure barrier that protects the soil from being
contaminated by the alkaline soil outside the box.


Mattias Baecklund

"gmv" skrev i meddelandet
...
The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.
The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.
I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



"Rob Halgren" typed in message
...
Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your
soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

I forgot it is probably easiest to use blocks of peat.
"Mattias Baecklund" skrev i meddelandet
...
do like this
& = peat
# = normal compost
above side
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &###### Tree ##########&
&#####################& &###### roots ##########&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&###### Tree ##########& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&#####################& &#####################&
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

make sure it is allot of room for the tree rootsystem to grow that way it
will not come in contact with the alkaline soil.
Peat will create a sure barrier that protects the soil from being
contaminated by the alkaline soil outside the box.


Mattias Baecklund

"gmv" skrev i meddelandet
...
The tree of interest is called an ORCHID tree better
known as a Bauhinia tree.
The only reason I posted my question here was because
it is about an Orchid thingy.
I have received the best results posting in this
particular group because the people here
seem to know more about plants in general.
Simply acidifying the soil is not an option
because it seems in the PH change deadly salts are generated
causing the ends of the leaves to go necrotic.
Changing the soil all together now seems like the
only feasible option. Either that or using a pot.
I have never seen a Bauhinia grown in a pot before.
It would have to be a monster pot.
30 feet in diameter or so.
It looks like oleanders are the only way to go here.



"Rob Halgren" typed in message
...
Dewitt wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:



But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your
soil
since I have not had to do that.



Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify
the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a
the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg


Remarkably nobody has commented on this being an 'orchard' not an
'orchid' question...

But the answer is compost. Lots and lots of compost. That is the
only
long term way to fix any dirt. Makes acid soil more alkaline, and
alkaline soil more acid. Amend soil liberally, and keep a good thick
layer of organic mulch over the root zone (but away from the trunk).
You will need to refresh your mulch at least once every two years,
depending on what you use. I use stable litter, myself.

If you want to fix it fast, then there are any number of bagged
products
you can buy at the nursery. Sulphur certainly works in the short
term. Use according to the label directions. Better yet, pay up for
a
real soil test (around here, the county ag extension office will do
it,
and fairly cheap), and follow their recommendations. Or, if you
really
have to fix it, regardless of cost, bulldoze/backhoe out the bad dirt,
and spend good money for new dirt. That, I'm afraid, is only suitable
for the millionaires among us.

As Ted notes, better to find the appropriate tree for your soil. Here
is a representative link on the futility of the whole thing...
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/new.../daa04d05.html

You know, you can grow perfectly good fruit trees in pots... Use
dwarfing rootstock, and protect the pots in the winter. And keep the
damn mice from girdling the trunks of your expensive and bearing sized
potted beauties right after you move to a house where the dirt _is_
suitable... Grrr.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

no use peat

Mattias Baecklund

"gmv" skrev i meddelandet
...
I figured such.
Maybe the only way is to scrape off the top soil
and replace it with a whole different kind
this thing is much too expensive so I guess
planting anything that likes the 7 range PH or less
is out of the question.

"Dewitt" typed in message
...
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:02 -0400, "Ted Byers"
wrote:

But, I can't give you any specific advice on changing the pH of your
soil
since I have not had to do that.

Powder sulfur can be used to acidify soils to some extent, but it is
normally used for small areas and it would be difficult to acidify the
entire root zone for a tree and keep it that way for the life of a the
tree. Best to find trees that are suitable for your soil rather than
trying to modify your soil.

deg