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Old 24-11-2003, 11:49 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2003
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 32
Default catasetum gender

hi there everyone,
pardon me for asking such a common question, but how do you get a catasetum to bloom as a male instead of female. i know that i have heard it before but i forgot.
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Old 25-11-2003, 05:42 AM
Eric Hunt
 
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Default catasetum gender

Agnatha,

Most of the time Catasetums bloom male. Higher light and heat conditions
will cause female blooms, which are the boring, massive helmet shaped
blooms. The male blooms are the colorful, eye-catching ones, and they are
produced usually under shadier conditions than female blooms.

Hope this helps.

-Eric in SF

"agnatha3141" wrote in message
s.com...
hi there everyone,
pardon me for asking such a common question, but how do you get a
catasetum to bloom as a male instead of female. i know that i have
heard it before but i forgot.
--
agnatha3141
------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk



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Old 25-11-2003, 10:02 AM
Robert Dickow
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

"Eric Hunt" wrote in
:

Agnatha,

Most of the time Catasetums bloom male. Higher light and heat
conditions will cause female blooms, which are the boring, massive
helmet shaped blooms. The male blooms are the colorful, eye-catching
ones, and they are produced usually under shadier conditions than
female blooms.


Yes, high light is supposed ot promote female flowers. But here's one of
my experiences that is interesting.

For some years I grew a Ctsm. tenebrosum on a bright windowsill, and it
gave always male flowers. Later I grew the same plant in a greenhouse.
For six years I could only get female flowers, even though I was putting
the plant under a shady bench. In the same greenhouse several other
Catasetums only produced males. This was in a normal mixed collection;
average Cattleya conditions, (with an underrated heater that sometimes
let the greenhouse approach near freezing temps in winter).

--
***********************************
* Bob Dickow ) *
* Hampton School of Music *
***********************************
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Old 25-11-2003, 05:42 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

"Robert Dickow" wrote in message
.. .
"Eric Hunt" wrote in
:

Agnatha,

Most of the time Catasetums bloom male. Higher light and heat
conditions will cause female blooms, which are the boring, massive
helmet shaped blooms. The male blooms are the colorful, eye-catching
ones, and they are produced usually under shadier conditions than
female blooms.


Yes, high light is supposed ot promote female flowers. But here's one of
my experiences that is interesting.

For some years I grew a Ctsm. tenebrosum on a bright windowsill, and it
gave always male flowers. Later I grew the same plant in a greenhouse.
For six years I could only get female flowers, even though I was putting
the plant under a shady bench. In the same greenhouse several other
Catasetums only produced males. This was in a normal mixed collection;
average Cattleya conditions, (with an underrated heater that sometimes
let the greenhouse approach near freezing temps in winter).

--
***********************************
* Bob Dickow ) *
* Hampton School of Music *
***********************************


IMHO the production of male/female flowers is much more complicated than
just 'light'. Marilyn Light believes production is also dependent on the
robustness of the bulb producing the flower. Now, how does one quantify
"robustness"? Also, people who have grown Catasetums for long periods of
time and pay attention to their flower production note that some bulbs tend
toward male and some toward female. Again, how does one influence a
'tendency' with one's cultural practices? And can that be repeated everytime
with assuredness? So the easy answer is 'light' because as we know light is
the single most influential factor in flower production. But it ain't the
only one.

Are these experiences urban myths? Personally I don't think so. I feel they
exemplify the need for hobbyists to be more attentive to what they are doing
to their plants and recording same until they find out what works for them.
And personally, sometimes I think my head will explode if I have to think
that much about what the plant is doing in response to my care. I guess
that's where a good tag system comes in, *G*.

Flower production (any flower) starts weeks before the first visual signs of
embryo formation. Proper and consistently good culture will give the grower
the nicest flowers that plant is capable of producing. Its also very hard to
provide. (Speaking for myself)

So, Catasetums are not Phals. Sure, most of them you can just put on a bench
and they'll bloom for you. But Catasetums can change flower types (seemingly
at random) and that's where understanding flower production comes in. I
suppose that's why some folks think they are difficult. They aren't
difficult. Its takes time to understand what it takes to make them do what
we want them to do - produce showy male flowers.

Personally, I'm too lazy to keep track and too forgetful to remember what I
learned in the first place. (Gotta get that tag system set up!) I just
accept what the plant does.

K Barrett


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Old 25-11-2003, 07:32 PM
Susan Erickson
 
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Default catasetum gender

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:38:55 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

IMHO the production of male/female flowers is much more complicated than
just 'light'. Marilyn Light believes production is also dependent on the
robustness of the bulb producing the flower. Now, how does one quantify
"robustness"? ----------------------------------------


Personally, I'm too lazy to keep track and too forgetful to remember what I
learned in the first place. (Gotta get that tag system set up!) I just
accept what the plant does.

K Barrett


But doesn't good light all year make for more robust bulbs?
Isn't this an argument for growing the plant to its best or
fullest potential?
says SuE who does not grow Catasetum at all.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php


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Old 25-11-2003, 10:32 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:38:55 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

IMHO the production of male/female flowers is much more complicated than
just 'light'. Marilyn Light believes production is also dependent on the
robustness of the bulb producing the flower. Now, how does one quantify
"robustness"? ----------------------------------------


Personally, I'm too lazy to keep track and too forgetful to remember what

I
learned in the first place. (Gotta get that tag system set up!) I just
accept what the plant does.

K Barrett


But doesn't good light all year make for more robust bulbs?
Isn't this an argument for growing the plant to its best or
fullest potential?
says SuE who does not grow Catasetum at all.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php


I know. This stuff could drive you batty. More robust bulbs tend toward the
female flower. How then does one get the male flower in nature? Heck if I
know! There must be a lot of wiggle room in the 'tendency' toward female
flowers... Or a great dependence on physical diversity inside the habitat.

As to growing plants in optimum conditions, I figure that you never truly
know exactly when the flower primordia will start and so you should always
be prepared, thru consistent good culture, to support that developement when
it does occur. (Which kinda ties in to why orchid clubs have a 6 month
ownership rule about plant entry for ribbon judging. You gotta show what you
grew.)

K


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Old 26-11-2003, 04:40 AM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2003
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 32
Default catasetum gender

wow,
thanks guys. i appreciate the input, and i am keeping my fingers crossed for a male. but another question for a different catasetum: if you have bought a catasetum and you dont know when it has bloomed recently, or if it has at all, how are you to know if it will bloom again? if it has already bloomed and it is not in spike currently, could it bloom again? i thought that one bloom was it for plants like that. for a cycnoches that i had, i was of the understanding that it was done after one flower, but then it surprised me. is this possible with a catasetum?
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Old 26-11-2003, 06:02 AM
profpam
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

I might add something to the discussion:

The World of Catasetums by Arthur W. Holst is an excellent book on the
subject. And, on p.97, he says "Flower sex is very difficult to predict,
even if the grower pays attention to the amount of light exposure, but
it is smart to play the percentages. Certain plants, perhaps owing to
their inherent vigor, seem to be disposed to produce female flowers year
after year".
The "inherent vigor" perhaps goes along with K and Marilyn's statement.

Another interesting statement Holst makes is that "Catasetum plants
should be positioned to receive all the sunlight they can tolerate" when
new growth is forming. So, I would assume that it is best to move them
when a spike is forming -- shade for male flowers; sun for female
flowers. On a personal note, when I see a spike coming I take the plant
from the greenhouse and place it indoors in a sunny window. Whereas my
catasetums seem to respond by producing female flowers, my Cycnoches
most always seem to produce the male flowers.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System
http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html




agnatha3141 wrote:

wow,
thanks guys. i appreciate the input, and i am keeping my fingers
crossed for a male. but another question for a different catasetum: if
you have bought a catasetum and you dont know when it has bloomed
recently, or if it has at all, how are you to know if it will bloom
again? if it has already bloomed and it is not in spike currently,
could it bloom again? i thought that one bloom was it for plants like
that. for a cycnoches that i had, i was of the understanding that it
was done after one flower, but then it surprised me. is this possible
with a catasetum?
--
agnatha3141
------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk

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Old 26-11-2003, 06:32 AM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

"agnatha3141" wrote in message
s.com...
wow,
thanks guys. i appreciate the input, and i am keeping my fingers
crossed for a male. but another question for a different catasetum: if
you have bought a catasetum and you dont know when it has bloomed
recently, or if it has at all, how are you to know if it will bloom
again? if it has already bloomed and it is not in spike currently,
could it bloom again? i thought that one bloom was it for plants like
that. for a cycnoches that i had, i was of the understanding that it
was done after one flower, but then it surprised me. is this possible
with a catasetum?
--
agnatha3141
------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk


First off, Isn't 'agnatha' the classification for eels??

Then, to give my input on your questions...

1) If you bought a plant and don't know if it flowered then you have no idea
if it'll flower for you this year or not. Watch the plant and see if it
drops leaves (goes dormant) That will be your first clue. Of course there
are always those that bloom after they've dropped their leaves... so one can
never tell, and someone with more braincells than I have (or a better tag
system) will be able to tell you. Note: start your tag system *now!*

2) Yes I've had catsetiinae bloom from different eyes on the p/bulb. Very
satisfying when they do that! Mine happened with a Mormodes sinuata. Had 3
differnt spikes in one year, one after another. Then the next year 3 at one
time. That's when I got hooked.

I have no idea if Catasetums per se will rebloom. But judging from members
of the same subtribe I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

As an aside, one way to distinguish amongst the various cataseniinae (sp is
wrong there) is by where the infloresence arises along the p/bulb. Cycnoches
at the top, Mormodes midway along the side and Catasetum at the base of the
p/bulb. I have no idea where Clowesia or Dressleria arise.

K Barrett



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Old 26-11-2003, 01:42 PM
Reka
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender


"K Barrett" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2OPwb.230063$275.865960@attbi_s53...
"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
But doesn't good light all year make for more robust bulbs?
Isn't this an argument for growing the plant to its best or
fullest potential?
says SuE who does not grow Catasetum at all.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php


I know. This stuff could drive you batty. More robust bulbs tend toward

the
female flower. How then does one get the male flower in nature?


Well, I would tend to say that flowers are not any different than
humans...one male can fertilize so-o-o-o-o-o-o-o many females.... ;-)

--
Reka
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
--Winston Churchill



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Old 27-11-2003, 04:38 AM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2003
Location: florida, usa
Posts: 32
Default catasetum gender

First off, Isn't 'agnatha' the classification for eels??

I think that it is. Although I am no longer sure because merriam websters online dictionary says they have never heard of it. I habitually use it because everything else on the internet is usually taken, but i am extremely impressed that you have heard of it. I used to think that it was a phyllum of prehistoric jawless fish, but i really dont know anymore. How did you know?
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Old 27-11-2003, 06:13 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender


"agnatha3141" wrote in message
s.com...
First off, Isn't 'agnatha' the classification for eels??

I think that it is. Although I am no longer sure because merriam
websters online dictionary says they have never heard of it. I
habitually use it because everything else on the internet is usually
taken, but i am extremely impressed that you have heard of it. I used
to think that it was a phyllum of prehistoric jawless fish, but i
really dont know anymore. How did you know?
--
agnatha3141



LOL!! In my former life I studied marine biology. Never went anywhere with
it though.

K Barrett


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Old 29-11-2003, 08:02 AM
Robert Dickow
 
Posts: n/a
Default catasetum gender

Catasetums will bloom more than once a season if they are fairly happy
and in the mood. I know Holst has claimed 'several' bloomings a season
on some catasetums, but I have only gotten at most 2. Cycnoches
warscewiczii blooms twice regularly if the plant is of mature size and
in good shape. Some species of Catasetum will rebloom more faithfully
than others, such as Ctsm. barbatum, pileatum, and others. (Check out
my recent bloom on Ctsm. barbatum.

http://cosmo.turbonet.com/ctsm_barbatum.jpg).

I have never known one to bloom off the same bulb after the bulb has
begun new growth.

I have often had bloom spikes come with new growth (Ctsm. tenebrosum,
Ctsm. appendiculatum x Joao Stivalli), and Ctsm. tuberculatum is now in
spike on a growth that is fully expanded in leaf but the bulb has not
matured and fattened up).


agnatha3141 wrote in

s.com:

recently, or if it has at all, how are you to know if it will bloom
again? if it has already bloomed and it is not in spike currently,
could it bloom again? i thought that one bloom was it for plants like
that. for a cycnoches that i had, i was of the understanding that it
was done after one flower, but then it surprised me. is this possible
with a catasetum?


--
***********************************
* Bob Dickow ) *
* Hampton School of Music *
***********************************
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