No, I wouldn't truly say that. It's just that the current administration
has really kicked the civil-liberty-trodding into a higher gear, in my
opinion.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
. net...

"Ray" wrote in message
...
But Geir. You're assuming that the charges are valid in the first
place.
I
agree with Tennis that the "innocent until proven guilty" theorem is
being
badly trodden in this country under George II and his cronies, or should
I
say "puppeteers."


Hey Ray, you're saying this as if this kind of abuse, together with the
"puppeteers" didn't exist during the Clinton administration

Mariana

I also believe some people will not purchase in the future from certain
vendors because of their comments.

Bobby,

There, I differ with you. If sharing the same opinions, politically or
otherwise, was a criteria for any kind of relationship, personal or
commercial, then my favorite sister and I would never speak to each other
again!

Diana

Diana, you got it right. This thread is kinda taking the fun out of a
gardening forum since we do not expect to get into politics when we visit
this forum. I also believe some people will not purchase in the future from
certain vendors because of their comments.

Bobby Baxter
http://thegardensite.com



"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have strong opinions on the thoughts and accusations in this thread, so
I'm sorely tempted to get into this, but..........nah. Not worth the loss
of camaradarie.

Diana

No, I wouldn't truly say that. It's just that the current administration
has really kicked the civil-liberty-trodding into a higher gear, in my
opinion.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
. net...

"Ray" wrote in message
...
But Geir. You're assuming that the charges are valid in the first
place.
I
agree with Tennis that the "innocent until proven guilty" theorem is
being
badly trodden in this country under George II and his cronies, or should
I
say "puppeteers."


Hey Ray, you're saying this as if this kind of abuse, together with the
"puppeteers" didn't exist during the Clinton administration

Mariana

Diana, you got it right. This thread is kinda taking the fun out of a
gardening forum since we do not expect to get into politics when we visit
this forum. I also believe some people will not purchase in the future from
certain vendors because of their comments.

Bobby Baxter
http://thegardensite.com



"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have strong opinions on the thoughts and accusations in this thread, so
I'm sorely tempted to get into this, but..........nah. Not worth the loss
of camaradarie.

Diana

I also believe some people will not purchase in the future from certain
vendors because of their comments.

Bobby,

There, I differ with you. If sharing the same opinions, politically or
otherwise, was a criteria for any kind of relationship, personal or
commercial, then my favorite sister and I would never speak to each other
again!

Diana

Ditto, my apologies for the earlier post. No more politics from me.

-M

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have strong opinions on the thoughts and accusations in this thread, so
I'm sorely tempted to get into this, but..........nah. Not worth the loss
of camaradarie.

Diana

I beg to differ. I most certainly will. It does not matter to me what an
orchid supplier's political outlook is. What's important is that I like the
orchids being sold by that orchid vendor....

Mariana

"Bobby Baxter" wrote in message
. com...
Diana, you got it right. This thread is kinda taking the fun out of a
gardening forum since we do not expect to get into politics when we visit
this forum. I also believe some people will not purchase in the future
from
certain vendors because of their comments.

Bobby Baxter
http://thegardensite.com



"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have strong opinions on the thoughts and accusations in this thread,
so
I'm sorely tempted to get into this, but..........nah. Not worth the
loss
of camaradarie.

Diana

True or untrue, there is something about this story that doesn't
add up to me. I gave George the benefit of the doubt after
the last incident, but am finding it harder to do so now. If I
were in his position I would have wanted my shipments to go
through the most stringent import station and specifically
requested my imports be thoroughly inspected to avert further
attention. Sure it would take longer, but there are other vendors
where it takes months to get through the inspection process. I
do have to say in his defense that I specifically check each plant
I buy from any vendor to make sure it isn't a cites problem
and none that I considered buying from his lists seemed to
be restricted, but I don't check every plant on his lists, and
don't buy Paphs. So take from that what you will.

Crystal

--
http://home.comcast.net/~xtals/orchid.htm
"David Fouchey" wrote in message
...


I was working under the assunmption the charges are likely true. If
not then I hope he is exonerated. BUT when it comes to fols who ARE
guilty of wholesale rampaging through wild stock I have no pity or use
for them.


MY Humble opinion of course.

And Ray I agreee with you on Dubya but this is not the proper forum
for that discussion! G

Dave

True or untrue, there is something about this story that doesn't
add up to me. I gave George the benefit of the doubt after
the last incident, but am finding it harder to do so now. If I
were in his position I would have wanted my shipments to go
through the most stringent import station and specifically
requested my imports be thoroughly inspected to avert further
attention. Sure it would take longer, but there are other vendors
where it takes months to get through the inspection process. I
do have to say in his defense that I specifically check each plant
I buy from any vendor to make sure it isn't a cites problem
and none that I considered buying from his lists seemed to
be restricted, but I don't check every plant on his lists, and
don't buy Paphs. So take from that what you will.

Crystal

--
http://home.comcast.net/~xtals/orchid.htm
"David Fouchey" wrote in message
...


I was working under the assunmption the charges are likely true. If
not then I hope he is exonerated. BUT when it comes to fols who ARE
guilty of wholesale rampaging through wild stock I have no pity or use
for them.


MY Humble opinion of course.

And Ray I agreee with you on Dubya but this is not the proper forum
for that discussion! G

Dave

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:56:46 GMT, "House of Paisley"
wrote in Message-Id:
iHm3c.508962$I06.5523810@attbi_s01:

I gave George the benefit of the doubt after
the last incident,

There was a previous incident involving George Norris?

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:56:46 GMT, "House of Paisley"
wrote in Message-Id:
iHm3c.508962$I06.5523810@attbi_s01:

I gave George the benefit of the doubt after
the last incident,

There was a previous incident involving George Norris?

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:50:56 GMT, "GrlIntrpted"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

A repost of a link that was posted to Orchid Spring Discussion Board.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...al/8118304.htm]



I found this information interesting:



Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:21:34 -1000
From: "Bill Bergstrom"
To: "Orchid"
Subject: [OGD] Arias
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Some of what you have been told about the arrest of Manuel Arias Silva
in Miami, some not quite true. George arrive at the show and so did
all the plants (quite legal) No Manuel..After extensive phoning
Manuel was found to be incarcerated. George went there and was denied
any info or visit (typical now days..same as Pepe) The idea was to
keep him there in jail indefinitely..No bail, no phone calls no
hearing (I guess) George and his wife (in the legal business) turned
that all around. They eventually set it up for Manuel (one of the
dearest people you would ever want to know..frail,,in terrible health)
to be released to Georges custody..In Texas...The prosecution
screamed..but bail was set..HOWEVER..he is still cooped up until
Monday..Weekend and all that..even though the procedure was finished
early Fri. (or so I am told) No charges were totally defined but
plenty discovered. NO Kovachii involved..merely Phrags in general and
the whole thing going back as long as ten years ago. I had previously
heard that it had to do with mislabeling a plant (according to F &W)
and maybe because plants of Phrag caudatum Sanderae were labeled
falsely as caudatum...If so..F&W is way off base..They are one and the
same and, in fact, no one is even calling the plant Sanderae at all
anymore..(I guess like the plants I used to sell as Peruviana and
Amazonica...names just dissolved away) Point being that much is to be
known if, in fact, there are 80 counts against him as I
heard..Further..rumor has it that plants were shipped with a
Maxillaria designation...The Miami local paper has a longer
account..very much filled with damning evidence...It looks bad for
both George and Manuel if true..Story has it that George is also to be
indicted when he goes home..hopefully with Manuel, who that had
evidently hoped to keep in jail to provide info against George..You
know...Get him to squeal..or never see the light of day or another
Peruvian sunset...What was the name of that book George Orwell put
out.??? Hell Cant remember..that time has passed..Or has it?
Lastly..from what I hear..A knight in armor has appeared and a lawyer
showed up at the show and offered to help Manuel..A lawyer who loves
and is quite familiar with Orchids...A definite plus for the
situation...We will be hearing about this for a long time to come I
fear...I can tell you this for certain. I have known Manuel for 25
years and a finer, more respectable man you will never meet..George
and I have had our differences through the years..but I have never
heard a breath of his attempting to sell illegal stuff (though the
news article says there is evidence that he did) You can take things
out of context when you read between the lines on that article...Were
they illegal (by someone's standard) Phrags he was discussing in his
messages (somehow obtained..hundreds of them) to Manuel..or simply
instructions on how to get every day Orchids easily and quickly
through the paper work..Only time will tell...My fears are that it is
not the actual situation we should be shuddering about..but the
process that has brought it about and what that means to our rights
and to our privacy. Bill
------------------------------

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:50:56 GMT, "GrlIntrpted"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

A repost of a link that was posted to Orchid Spring Discussion Board.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...al/8118304.htm]



I found this information interesting:



Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:21:34 -1000
From: "Bill Bergstrom"
To: "Orchid"
Subject: [OGD] Arias
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Some of what you have been told about the arrest of Manuel Arias Silva
in Miami, some not quite true. George arrive at the show and so did
all the plants (quite legal) No Manuel..After extensive phoning
Manuel was found to be incarcerated. George went there and was denied
any info or visit (typical now days..same as Pepe) The idea was to
keep him there in jail indefinitely..No bail, no phone calls no
hearing (I guess) George and his wife (in the legal business) turned
that all around. They eventually set it up for Manuel (one of the
dearest people you would ever want to know..frail,,in terrible health)
to be released to Georges custody..In Texas...The prosecution
screamed..but bail was set..HOWEVER..he is still cooped up until
Monday..Weekend and all that..even though the procedure was finished
early Fri. (or so I am told) No charges were totally defined but
plenty discovered. NO Kovachii involved..merely Phrags in general and
the whole thing going back as long as ten years ago. I had previously
heard that it had to do with mislabeling a plant (according to F &W)
and maybe because plants of Phrag caudatum Sanderae were labeled
falsely as caudatum...If so..F&W is way off base..They are one and the
same and, in fact, no one is even calling the plant Sanderae at all
anymore..(I guess like the plants I used to sell as Peruviana and
Amazonica...names just dissolved away) Point being that much is to be
known if, in fact, there are 80 counts against him as I
heard..Further..rumor has it that plants were shipped with a
Maxillaria designation...The Miami local paper has a longer
account..very much filled with damning evidence...It looks bad for
both George and Manuel if true..Story has it that George is also to be
indicted when he goes home..hopefully with Manuel, who that had
evidently hoped to keep in jail to provide info against George..You
know...Get him to squeal..or never see the light of day or another
Peruvian sunset...What was the name of that book George Orwell put
out.??? Hell Cant remember..that time has passed..Or has it?
Lastly..from what I hear..A knight in armor has appeared and a lawyer
showed up at the show and offered to help Manuel..A lawyer who loves
and is quite familiar with Orchids...A definite plus for the
situation...We will be hearing about this for a long time to come I
fear...I can tell you this for certain. I have known Manuel for 25
years and a finer, more respectable man you will never meet..George
and I have had our differences through the years..but I have never
heard a breath of his attempting to sell illegal stuff (though the
news article says there is evidence that he did) You can take things
out of context when you read between the lines on that article...Were
they illegal (by someone's standard) Phrags he was discussing in his
messages (somehow obtained..hundreds of them) to Manuel..or simply
instructions on how to get every day Orchids easily and quickly
through the paper work..Only time will tell...My fears are that it is
not the actual situation we should be shuddering about..but the
process that has brought it about and what that means to our rights
and to our privacy. Bill
------------------------------

True or untrue, there is something about this story that doesn't
add up to me. I gave George the benefit of the doubt after
the last incident, but am finding it harder to do so now. If I
were in his position I would have wanted my shipments to go
through the most stringent import station and specifically
requested my imports be thoroughly inspected to avert further
attention. Sure it would take longer, but there are other vendors
where it takes months to get through the inspection process. I
do have to say in his defense that I specifically check each plant
I buy from any vendor to make sure it isn't a cites problem
and none that I considered buying from his lists seemed to
be restricted, but I don't check every plant on his lists, and
don't buy Paphs. So take from that what you will.

Crystal

--
http://home.comcast.net/~xtals/orchid.htm
"David Fouchey" wrote in message
...


I was working under the assunmption the charges are likely true. If
not then I hope he is exonerated. BUT when it comes to fols who ARE
guilty of wholesale rampaging through wild stock I have no pity or use
for them.


MY Humble opinion of course.

And Ray I agreee with you on Dubya but this is not the proper forum
for that discussion! G

Dave