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Old 24-05-2004, 12:05 AM
solo_voyager
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

Where to begin? O.K., I have several Dendrobiums (most from section
Dendrobium) that are showing similar symptoms.

1. The thin leafed types begin yellowing at the tips of the middle to
older leafs. Eventually they start turning tan in color, dying back
from the tips.
2. Those with a thicker leaf consistancy also begin yellowing at the
tips or somewhere along the margin, but are much slower in actually
dying and turning tan in color. Some do not begin dying off. They
simply become chlorotic in spots.

I have treated for both bacterial and fungal infections to no avail. I
am beginning to suspect mico-nutrient deficiency or toxicity.

Up here, we have water quality most of you would die for, very low in
disolved minerals and other such things. Visiting guest speakers for
the local O.S. have often recomended that we feed with every watering
because out water is so clean and free of contaminants.

I use a fertilizer mixture of:
A crystaline 10-52-10 with a label assay of:
N:
9.0% Ammoniacal
1.0% Nitrate
P:
P2O5 52%
K:
K2O 10%
Boron: 0.02%
Copper: 0.07%
Iron: (Chelated) 0.15%
Manganese: (Chelated) 0.05%

The other fertilizer ingredient is a 0-10-10 fish based fertilizer
with a lable assay that includes:
Chlorine: 8.0% (That strikes me as high.)
I chose this material because I assume the marine fish base should
supply any and all micro-nutrients that might be needed.

I fill a tub with 6 gallons of water and add the recommended amount of
each fertilizer for 1 gallon. To my thinking this is the equivelant of
adding a 10-62-20 requirement for 1 gal to 3 gallons of water, a 1/3rd
solution. I fertilize at almost all waterings during spring, summer
and fall, and few if any during winter.

Potential causes as near as I can deduce a
DEFICIENCIES OF:
Magnesium
Cobalt
Copper
Iron
Manganese
Molybdenum
Nitrogen
Zinc

EXCESSES OF:
Calcium
Chlorine(?)
Potassium
Phosphorus
Zinc

Can anyone comment or add any insight to this possible problem?
Thx
S V
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Old 24-05-2004, 02:07 AM
Aaron Hicks
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

About the only nutrient deficiency that is going to manifest in
orchids readily is iron; what you have doesn't sound like iron deficiency,
and you're already putting iron on 'em. The second, much less likely
deficiency that is seen in orchids is that of calcium, which (because it
affects growing points first) isn't your problem.

I don't think you have a nutrient deficiency. I think you have
salts build-up or, at least, that's the best I can guess without seeing
the plants. Any pictures available?

If you have problems with root tips dying back, this would lend
strongly towards this theory. More salt-sensitive plants (phrags in
particular) that are in the same medium would be better indicators.

Some people have reported bad problems with salts buildup using
coco fiber, even when thoroughly washed (and checked with a TDS meter
afterwards); it seems to accumulate salts, at least here in the SW where
our water is pretty nasty sometimes with regards to dissolved solids.

So- check your media, let us know if there are any mineral crusts.
How are your root tips- dead or alive? Are more salt-sensitive plants
showing any signs of stress? Do you ever use magnesium sulfate (Epsom
salts) to exchange out some of the built up calcium carbonate? How much of
the fish emulsion do you use? The 8% sodium is high, but expected given
that it's probably from a marine environment, which already has lots of
sodium present.

If all else fails and you don't want to believe me when I say I
don't think it's a nutrient deficiency, then switch to a fertilizer that
lists all your elements, right down the list:

Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium

Iron, calcium, magnesium, manganese, zinc, boron

Cobalt, copper, molybdenum, and iodine.

Easy on the zinc. It's a little toxic if you use too much.

Still don't believe me? I'm cool like that. Get yourself a bag of
"Guaranteed* to Grow!" or something like that from the local hydroponics
store, some sort of micronutrient junk that is whipped up by some guy in
his garage. It's a cheap way of getting your micros in a convenient form.

By the way- do you know what a molybdenum deficiency looks like in
dendrobiums? Neither does anyone else. :-)

* Guarantee not good when used on plants, animals, or any other life form


No e-mail to the address in the header. It's a spam trap.


Cheers,

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


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Old 24-05-2004, 04:03 AM
danny
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

10-52???-10

Why on earth do you want to use that much Phosphorous? It won't do anything
for the plant. 10-2-10 would probably give you the same or better results.

-danny

"solo_voyager" wrote in message
om...
I use a fertilizer mixture of:
A crystaline 10-52-10 with a label assay of:



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Old 24-05-2004, 06:06 PM
Pat Brennan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

Given your water and the fertilizers you have been using, sounds to me like
you have been giving your roots an acid bath. Not only will this hurt the
roots, but it will also impair the plants ability to take up the micros and
macros. It is not that you are not providing them to the plant, it is the
plants hindered ability to take them up given the low pH of the mix.

If you do not get any other answers you like, try this. Sorry I do not have
time to explain it all, but I am just plain out of time.

First do a real good flush. Heavy watering with clear water, wait a few
hours and repeat.

The next couple of waterings use clear water. At this point the plants
should be looking a little better.

After a couple of waterings start watering with a weak regular fertilizer
such as 20-10-10, 20-20-20, or 15-16-17. (Flush once a month).

After 6 weeks or so start using a fertilizer that has calcium and manganese
once a month as the last feeding before the flush. MSU, Jack's RO, Jack's
Well Water, and Excel Cal/Mag are all good choices. I think Ray sells one
of these.

Basically the water schedule will be reg fert, reg fert, cal/mag, flush.

As the plants return to health, the fertilizer concentration can be
increased from weak to more normal levels. At that point you might also
want to add a bloom booster once per rotation or at special times of the
year, but be careful as they are pretty acidic and I am not sure they are
necessary or worth the risk.

Hope this helps,
Pat B


Next
"solo_voyager" wrote in message
om...
Where to begin? O.K., I have several Dendrobiums (most from section
Dendrobium) that are showing similar symptoms.

1. The thin leafed types begin yellowing at the tips of the middle to
older leafs. Eventually they start turning tan in color, dying back
from the tips.
2. Those with a thicker leaf consistancy also begin yellowing at the
tips or somewhere along the margin, but are much slower in actually
dying and turning tan in color. Some do not begin dying off. They
simply become chlorotic in spots.

I have treated for both bacterial and fungal infections to no avail. I
am beginning to suspect mico-nutrient deficiency or toxicity.

Up here, we have water quality most of you would die for, very low in
disolved minerals and other such things. Visiting guest speakers for
the local O.S. have often recomended that we feed with every watering
because out water is so clean and free of contaminants.

I use a fertilizer mixture of:
A crystaline 10-52-10 with a label assay of:
N:
9.0% Ammoniacal
1.0% Nitrate
P:
P2O5 52%
K:
K2O 10%
Boron: 0.02%
Copper: 0.07%
Iron: (Chelated) 0.15%
Manganese: (Chelated) 0.05%

The other fertilizer ingredient is a 0-10-10 fish based fertilizer
with a lable assay that includes:
Chlorine: 8.0% (That strikes me as high.)
I chose this material because I assume the marine fish base should
supply any and all micro-nutrients that might be needed.

I fill a tub with 6 gallons of water and add the recommended amount of
each fertilizer for 1 gallon. To my thinking this is the equivelant of
adding a 10-62-20 requirement for 1 gal to 3 gallons of water, a 1/3rd
solution. I fertilize at almost all waterings during spring, summer
and fall, and few if any during winter.

Potential causes as near as I can deduce a
DEFICIENCIES OF:
Magnesium
Cobalt
Copper
Iron
Manganese
Molybdenum
Nitrogen
Zinc

EXCESSES OF:
Calcium
Chlorine(?)
Potassium
Phosphorus
Zinc

Can anyone comment or add any insight to this possible problem?
Thx
S V



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Old 25-05-2004, 10:06 PM
solo_voyager
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

[Correction to my original post: water/fertilizer solution of 1/3rd
strenght s/b 1/6th strength.]

Thanks Aaron, Danny and Pat. Your feed-back has help put some things
into perspective.

I began using this fertilizer concoction early in 2000 after reading
an article about windowsill growing in the Dec 1999 'Orchids'. The
recommendation was to use a bloom booster year around. It has worked
well for me with no apparent problems until this season.

I began to suspect deficiencies or toxicity when the only info I could
find for yellowing of middle to older leaves seemed to shotgun trace
mineral shortages. Although, some potential excesses were listed.

The reasons I began using this concoction we

1. To use a bloom booster formulation year-round to help simplify my
in-home growing of cool-dry-rest Den.'s that require a variety of
tweaked conditions to make them all happy enough to bloom.
2. The crystalline fertilizer was chosen because of it's 100% useable
Nitrogen content. Plus, some micro-nutrients were available from it.
3. Because I am always suspicious of manufactured chemicals which I
assumed the crystalline fertilized was, I added the fish fertilizer to
try to cover making other micro-nutrients available for just-in-case.
I assumed the high Phosphorous would not be a problem. All I was
trying to do was elevate the P-K above the N and make trace minerals
available.

This has worked well for me since early 2000. It has been only this
growing season that the problem has begun to show severely on several
plants. What I am now considering to be the indicator for this is a
plant I purchased in 2000, a D. falconeri.
The vendor didn't want to sell it to me at that time because he had
had a "bad water" problem with them and they were still recovering
from it. I brow-beat him into selling me one anyway. It has grown well
for me until this season. It is now one of those plagued with
yellowing and die-back from the tips of the older leaves.

I am going to reassess my fertilizer regimen, lower the phosphoric
acid content and not worry about micro-nutrients. In the meantime I'll
do a thorough leaching of the pots and mounts to clear them out, then
take another run at it.

Thx for your input.
S V


  #6   Report Post  
Old 26-05-2004, 03:05 PM
Helpful 1
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

Hello

(solo_voyager) wrote in message . com...
I began using this fertilizer concoction early in 2000 after reading
an article about windowsill growing in the Dec 1999 'Orchids'. The
recommendation was to use a bloom booster year around. It has worked
well for me with no apparent problems until this season.
I began to suspect deficiencies or toxicity when the only info I could
find for yellowing of middle to older leaves seemed to shotgun trace
mineral shortages. Although, some potential excesses were listed.



High P is famous for inducing at least a severe Zn deficiency,
sometimes a triple Zn/Mn/Fe deficiency, very difficult to diagnose
visually. Zinc is essential to orchids, and most genus have Zn amounts
( foliar analysis) much higher than iron. Mn is usually pretty high
too.

1. To use a bloom booster formulation year-round to help simplify my
in-home growing of cool-dry-rest Den.'s that require a variety of
tweaked conditions to make them all happy enough to bloom.


The newer fertilizers with Calcium and Magnesium, usually coupled with
an high NO3 content induce a lot of micronutrient deficiencies. I can
see them in the analysis but they are not yet ver obvious visually...
Expect surprises similar to the CHC story, haydite, rockwhool and the
like in the coming years with those fertilizers.

2. The crystalline fertilizer was chosen because of it's 100% useable
Nitrogen content. Plus, some micro-nutrients were available from it.


Crystalline fertilizers are very difficult to store properly.
Micronutrients are usually gone by 3/4 to whole after only a year of
storage... Try to make a 30 x concentrate of your powdered fertilizer.
Usually there will be a lot of various crystals that will not
dissolve, easy to spot.

This has worked well for me since early 2000. It has been only this
growing season that the problem has begun to show severely on several
plants. What I am now considering to be the indicator for this is a
plant I purchased in 2000, a D. falconeri.
The vendor didn't want to sell it to me at that time because he had
had a "bad water" problem with them and they were still recovering
from it. I brow-beat him into selling me one anyway. It has grown well
for me until this season. It is now one of those plagued with
yellowing and die-back from the tips of the older leaves.



Quite common too... I have many orchid growers customers, not in the
USA.
Many of them are at a prehistoric age of growing orchids. I am sure
they would win at the lottery with the luck they have ! Most are still
trying to "improve" the growth of their plants, sometimes it works
sometimes not. Last people to talk is right. Sometimes it is possible
to undo their changes, sometimes not...

Substrate and macronutrient fertilizers needs at least a year, more
commonly 2 years to show any large problem. This group includes iron
too.

Micronutrients... it depends. Zinc and manganese is common today,
because many growers abandoned the old mancozeb fungicide several
years ago. Orchids have a quite high Zn content usually, and this
content slowly drops over the years if not properly supplied. Count
between 2 and 6 years for a plant to start funny yellow striping on
the leaves, and many new small growths on the plant.

Molybdenum deficiency is very common with the use of high NO3
fertilizers, but not yet a lot of obvious symptoms. Some plants here
and there in a crop are grayish, dull green, or yellowish. Usually
classified by the grower as "weak plants"...
It is translocatable, so expect a burst of weird looking plants in the
years to come. It is hard to diagnose, as the levels can be higher
than the recommended standard and still be deficient. NO3 (not total
N) foliar analysis is the only way to assess molybdenum deficiency.

Many growers are incredibly lucky. They will treat "leaf spot" with
mancozeb, and provide an additionnal Zn/Mn shot valid for a couple of
months or more, saving their plants. Sometimes they will forget to
correct the pH of the fertilizer once. Enough for the plant to restore
a part of its boron supply in an alkaline substrate. And so on...

Now, ask most growers. "Can you show me your foliar analysis ?" Have
you done any substrate analysis". A geranium grower will tell you
"yes". An orchid grower usually "wazzat ?"

Even a chlorosis of the new growth must be diagnosed by a lab... iron
deficiency exists, still many orchids suffer from iron toxicity, with
levels over 800-1000. This is what killed many plants grown in
haydite.

Iron-EDTA will sometimes exchange the iron against manganese (ans
zinc), and plants may improve with its use. This does not means that
iron was the culprit.

I am going to reassess my fertilizer regimen, lower the phosphoric
acid content and not worry about micro-nutrients. In the meantime I'll
do a thorough leaching of the pots and mounts to clear them out, then
take another run at it.


If you underfeed and use fish emulsion with an high Na content, you
may have a sodium toxicity. Dendrobiums have proven to be able to
replace a part of their potassium by sodium, during a potassium
shortage...

Basic :

- Mix 1 part of substrate to 1 and an half part of water, by weight.
Let stand overnight. Test the pH and EC. Optimum pH (according to
foliar analysis, and comprising all possible deficiencies and
toxicities of micronutrients) for SPENT medium is 5.7 for most hybrids
of most common orchid genus... Optimupm extract EC is over 400 and
under 1000 ( depending on the genus).
- Add some dolomitic limestone to raise the pH up to 6.

- Use a 20-20-20 (best one is the "20-20-20 Florida Special" from
Peters/Scotts) at the microsiemens rates given above, pH 5.7, no
more...
- pH of the substrate will drop using this fertilizer. Check the water
running out of the pot after a watering every other month. Too low,
add lime. Too high, use epsom salts once.

- Use from time to time a 15-5-15 CalMag or similar, but do not overdo
it. Once every moth to once every other month is more than enough.
Correct the pH to 5.7 too.

- You may use calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate monthly , but I
have to know that those are more in excess than deficiency amonghst
the several dozen foliar and substrate samples I am doing yearly.
Magnesium sulfate - epsom salts - serves to supply SO4-, lacking in
many culture, and lowering the pH, therefore making micronutrients
available. Otherwise, the magnesium itself has no effet. IF you do not
believe it, use magnesium nitrate instead...

Good luck with your plants.
  #7   Report Post  
Old 30-05-2004, 11:07 PM
solo_voyager
 
Posts: n/a
Default Micro-nutrients???

Thank you Helpful1. I have spent quite a bit of time mulling over your
post. It contained a lot of information that I am not very familiar
with. I've had to do a lot of checking into things elsewhere. I'm
still left with many questions on points I still don't fully
understand.

I have a pH testing kit that only covers a pH range from 6.0 to 7.6. I
am looking into acquiring one of the electronic pH meters, probably
next week, after the holiday weekend. I'm finding it hard to justify
the need to quantify EC and TDS in my situation as a hobbyist
windowsill grower using city water. I am open to argument here.

I have flushed all my orchids both potted and mounted several times
now. I've noted that the water used for the flushes becomes more
acidic. After soaking as few as 6 pots in the 7 gal tub, the pH can
move from 7.6 to 7.0 and will continue to drop as more plants are
soaked in the tub. This may be due, in part, to the fact that I use a
lot of sphagnum moss in both my potting mix and on the mounted plants.
My assumption is that the moss should tend to acidify the water run
through it. I also wonder about the possibility of residual Phosphoric
Acid.

I have acquired a 20-20-20 fertilizer. I have applied it one time to
about 1/2 of my plants so far at a concentration of 1 tsp in 7 gal of
water, about 1/2 the recommended concentration.

Now, my water from the tap has a pH of 7.6 or more. I believe it is
published as 7.5. After adding the new fertilizer it jumps to 7.0,
neutral. Then after sitting several hours, it goes back to 7.6 or
higher. As the plants are soaked in the fertilizer solution the pH of
the solution drops and continues to drop off my presently limited
scale of 6.0.

From your post, I understand that the target pH for the fertilizer
solution is about 5.7. My first reaction was to question whether that
was too acid. Even though I cannot yet fully measure the pH, I am now
willing to accept that as a reasonable number from what trends I have
been able to see so far. Can anyone confirm or add an argument to
this?

Other things noted:

I've found more information concerning some of the symptoms I've noted
with my plants. I had assumed they were signs of fungal or bacterial
problems and treated them as such with little to no success.

My D.'s amethystoglossum, dearei, schuetzii and a few others were
plagued with blackening leaf tips that had a yellow band preceding it
as it progressed up the leaf. This also seems to be a classic symptom
of excessive Chlorine. These plants had not done as well for me as I
had expected.

Learning that in the D. amethystoglossum's habitat it grew on
limestone cliffs, I began adding dolomite a pinch at a time to the
surface of it's potting mix last fall and this spring. This season's
new growth is the largest and most vigorous growing shoot it has ever
put out for me. I am atributing that to the addition of the dolomite,
now to remove the Chlorine from it's diet by no longer using the fish
fertilizer.

Several others that I have treated continually for fungal and
bacterial problems over the last few years, and had come to the
conclusion that they were just "weak plants", are now candidates for
being helped to be better performers by adjusting their feeding. I was
almost ready to throw them out and acquire replacements. They've just
been reprieved for a while to see if this will help them do better.
Thx
S V





(Helpful 1) wrote in message . com...
Hello



High P is famous for inducing at least a severe Zn deficiency,
sometimes a triple Zn/Mn/Fe deficiency, very difficult to diagnose
visually. Zinc is essential to orchids, and most genus have Zn amounts
( foliar analysis) much higher than iron. Mn is usually pretty high
too.


The newer fertilizers with Calcium and Magnesium, usually coupled with
an high NO3 content induce a lot of micronutrient deficiencies. I can
see them in the analysis but they are not yet ver obvious visually...
Expect surprises similar to the CHC story, haydite, rockwhool and the
like in the coming years with those fertilizers.


Crystalline fertilizers are very difficult to store properly.
Micronutrients are usually gone by 3/4 to whole after only a year of
storage... Try to make a 30 x concentrate of your powdered fertilizer.
Usually there will be a lot of various crystals that will not
dissolve, easy to spot.



Quite common too... I have many orchid growers customers, not in the
USA.
Many of them are at a prehistoric age of growing orchids. I am sure
they would win at the lottery with the luck they have ! Most are still
trying to "improve" the growth of their plants, sometimes it works
sometimes not. Last people to talk is right. Sometimes it is possible
to undo their changes, sometimes not...

Substrate and macronutrient fertilizers needs at least a year, more
commonly 2 years to show any large problem. This group includes iron
too.

Micronutrients... it depends. Zinc and manganese is common today,
because many growers abandoned the old mancozeb fungicide several
years ago. Orchids have a quite high Zn content usually, and this
content slowly drops over the years if not properly supplied. Count
between 2 and 6 years for a plant to start funny yellow striping on
the leaves, and many new small growths on the plant.

Molybdenum deficiency is very common with the use of high NO3
fertilizers, but not yet a lot of obvious symptoms. Some plants here
and there in a crop are grayish, dull green, or yellowish. Usually
classified by the grower as "weak plants"...
It is translocatable, so expect a burst of weird looking plants in the
years to come. It is hard to diagnose, as the levels can be higher
than the recommended standard and still be deficient. NO3 (not total
N) foliar analysis is the only way to assess molybdenum deficiency.

Many growers are incredibly lucky. They will treat "leaf spot" with
mancozeb, and provide an additionnal Zn/Mn shot valid for a couple of
months or more, saving their plants. Sometimes they will forget to
correct the pH of the fertilizer once. Enough for the plant to restore
a part of its boron supply in an alkaline substrate. And so on...

Now, ask most growers. "Can you show me your foliar analysis ?" Have
you done any substrate analysis". A geranium grower will tell you
"yes". An orchid grower usually "wazzat ?"

Even a chlorosis of the new growth must be diagnosed by a lab... iron
deficiency exists, still many orchids suffer from iron toxicity, with
levels over 800-1000. This is what killed many plants grown in
haydite.

Iron-EDTA will sometimes exchange the iron against manganese (ans
zinc), and plants may improve with its use. This does not means that
iron was the culprit.


If you underfeed and use fish emulsion with an high Na content, you
may have a sodium toxicity. Dendrobiums have proven to be able to
replace a part of their potassium by sodium, during a potassium
shortage...

Basic :

- Mix 1 part of substrate to 1 and an half part of water, by weight.
Let stand overnight. Test the pH and EC. Optimum pH (according to
foliar analysis, and comprising all possible deficiencies and
toxicities of micronutrients) for SPENT medium is 5.7 for most hybrids
of most common orchid genus... Optimupm extract EC is over 400 and
under 1000 ( depending on the genus).
- Add some dolomitic limestone to raise the pH up to 6.

- Use a 20-20-20 (best one is the "20-20-20 Florida Special" from
Peters/Scotts) at the microsiemens rates given above, pH 5.7, no
more...
- pH of the substrate will drop using this fertilizer. Check the water
running out of the pot after a watering every other month. Too low,
add lime. Too high, use epsom salts once.

- Use from time to time a 15-5-15 CalMag or similar, but do not overdo
it. Once every moth to once every other month is more than enough.
Correct the pH to 5.7 too.

- You may use calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate monthly , but I
have to know that those are more in excess than deficiency amonghst
the several dozen foliar and substrate samples I am doing yearly.
Magnesium sulfate - epsom salts - serves to supply SO4-, lacking in
many culture, and lowering the pH, therefore making micronutrients
available. Otherwise, the magnesium itself has no effet. IF you do not
believe it, use magnesium nitrate instead...

Good luck with your plants.

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