Hey folks. I received the following email, and thought I'd try to tap into the brain power of the
group. What do you think is happening?

Hello, I am a retail florist in Stuart, FL 34997 Florida and am having a problem with dying plants.
Initially, only my Orchids were dying. Now, although the orchids are still dying (sometimes in less
than 24 hours the petals wither and fall off), other green plants (common Ivy) are dying (although
it takes them much longer to turn yellow, dry out and wither).


I've done things like buying two orchids, taking one orchid home the other in my store. The one at
home flourishes the one in the store dies. Orchids placed in other stores in the plaza die also.


I had an air sample taken and it shows elevated levels of Trimathylpentane (32 ppbv), Isopropyl
Alcohol (0.1 ppbv) to name a couple. My landlords' air guy says that they are all within acceptable
levels for humans but I can not find any one that can tell me the relationship these gasses might
create with plants.

Do you have any ideas or suggestions on where to go to have a problem like this diagnosed?


Thank you,


Richard Bucci

Country Club Florists, Inc.

800-337-3919


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .

Ray wrote:

Hey folks. I received the following email, and thought I'd try to tap into the brain power of the
group. What do you think is happening?



He isn't next to a dry-cleaners by any chance? I don't know what
they use these days. Did they test for ethylene too? Sure sounds like
ethylene to me... With a few organics in the air I wouldn't be
surprised to find others... A dry-cleaners or other business that uses
industrial solvents sounds like the best bet for a culprit.

I don't know how specific the 'ethylene response' is to ethylene,
perhaps some plant physiologist could chip in. I wouldn't be surprized
if other molecules with similar structure had some effect at somewhat
higher levels. minor_diversion I know that works with steroid hormone
receptors - for example you can get a response from the estrogen
receptor from almost anything with a couple aromatic rings (including
atrazine, PCBs, dioxin, and numerous plant sterols). Usually you need a
higher concentration, but estradiol isn't even the _best_ ligand for the
estrogen receptor, there are plenty of other compounds with higher
specificity. Most (all, as far as I know) receptors are fairly
promiscuous with their binding partners, but estrogen is the worst.
/minor_diversion

I'm not a lawyer, but I can't imagine that you couldn't get out of a
lease where the location of the property was anathema to your business
application... Sounds like the landlord is trying to get away with
something. Not toxic to humans isn't an excuse if you can't keep your
merchandise alive.

Rob

Hello, I am a retail florist in Stuart, FL 34997 Florida and am having a problem with dying plants.
Initially, only my Orchids were dying. Now, although the orchids are still dying (sometimes in less
than 24 hours the petals wither and fall off), other green plants (common Ivy) are dying (although
it takes them much longer to turn yellow, dry out and wither).


I've done things like buying two orchids, taking one orchid home the other in my store. The one at
home flourishes the one in the store dies. Orchids placed in other stores in the plaza die also.


I had an air sample taken and it shows elevated levels of Trimathylpentane (32 ppbv), Isopropyl
Alcohol (0.1 ppbv) to name a couple. My landlords' air guy says that they are all within acceptable
levels for humans but I can not find any one that can tell me the relationship these gasses might
create with plants.

Do you have any ideas or suggestions on where to go to have a problem like this diagnosed?






--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

I'm not sure I understand the problem correctly. By "dying," does
he mean the flowers are expiring, or the entire plant? If it's the
flowers, I would suspect something like ethylene. Orchids are more
sensitive to ethylene than just about any other plants, except carnations.
Are his carnations suffering similarly?

I am not sure the analysis that was performed on the air would
cover ethylene, as it isn't a toxic problem so much as a flammable gas-
and only a hazard at a much higher concentration (several percent). If
ethylene was screened for, then kick me in the head again, and see what
falls out.

However, if it WERE ethylene, it could come from an industrial
process (unlikely), or agricultural- oranges produce lots of ethylene as
they ripen, but have rather lower sensitivity to the hormone. In fact,
oranges may be treated with a shot of ethylene in order to get them to
ripen to a uniform orange color. Ditto with bananas that are harvested
green, and shipped after being gassed with ethylene for ripening in
transit.

Another possibility is that there is someone with oranges nearby
who has had their plants treated with "Fruit Eliminator" or similar
product that contains ethephon that is used to abort flowers so that
fruits are not formed.

One way to test for ethylene being the problem would be to buy
some flowers, and run an experimental group kept in a chamber/refrigerator
with some potassium permanganate-based ethylene eliminators. These are
safe widgets that chemically react with the highly reactive double bond
between the carbons in ethylene to break it down to gases that don't whack
your flowers.

These things can be tricky to hunt down. Let us know if it works
out for him, would you?

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Spam trap.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

My first thought is - regardless of the cause, how can you afford to stay in
the place, losing plants at that rate?. Secondly, the "air guys" are handing
you a line since the EPA has not established safe or acceptable levels for
any number of chemicals, 2,2,4-trimethylpentane among them. This chemical
is an additive and natural component of gasoline with all the properties you
think of when you think of "gasoline". It certainly can react chemically
with nitrate fertilizers. I doubt the isopropyl alcohol vapors in and of
themselves are causing much problem. But when you put a chemical soup
together, there's no telling what synergistic effects may happen. And if you
have 2,2,4-trimethylpentane as a contaminant (one of the many solvents used
in "fast construction" or modern materials) you undoubtedly have
formaldehyde (methanal) and others which not only interact with each other
but have to be affecting the health of any organism there including your
orchids. Of course, any interactions producing elthylene gas, or the gas
itself as one of your contaminants, is the immediate suspect. What chemicals
do you keep around the store to prevent senescense of cutflowers? Silver
nitrate? Cobalt chloride? You wouldn't have any help that naively waters the
plants with any of these treated waters rather than recycle it, since I
believe the EPA forbids the dumping of these chemicals (I should probably
check that before sticking my foot in my mouth here).
This is just a bunch of jumbled thoughts about your situation. I'm sure
there are many other possibilities I haven't mentionned. I hope someone
comes up with some help for you other than moving your business or
installation of some expensive air filter system. The air system may end up
being your best, and maybe only, choice.
Gary

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Hey folks. I received the following email, and thought I'd try to tap
into the brain power of the
group. What do you think is happening?

Hello, I am a retail florist in Stuart, FL 34997 Florida and am having a
problem with dying plants.
Initially, only my Orchids were dying. Now, although the orchids are still
dying (sometimes in less
than 24 hours the petals wither and fall off), other green plants (common
Ivy) are dying (although
it takes them much longer to turn yellow, dry out and wither).


I've done things like buying two orchids, taking one orchid home the other
in my store. The one at
home flourishes the one in the store dies. Orchids placed in other stores
in the plaza die also.


I had an air sample taken and it shows elevated levels of Trimathylpentane
(32 ppbv), Isopropyl
Alcohol (0.1 ppbv) to name a couple. My landlords' air guy says that they
are all within acceptable
levels for humans but I can not find any one that can tell me the
relationship these gasses might
create with plants.

Do you have any ideas or suggestions on where to go to have a problem like
this diagnosed?


Thank you,


Richard Bucci

Country Club Florists, Inc.

800-337-3919


--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .

Richard,

Considering the comments by V_coerulea are there any gas stations nearby
that are currently, or in the somewhat recent past, been in business. Gas
from a leaky tank can travel in the ground a long way especially if it's on
top of the water table. You might also call the state petroleum
board/commission/etc. or the EPA office.

Bob

Ray, did this individual say just where in Stuart he is? I'm very close.
It would be interesting to see the location and environs. I don't pretend
to be a scientist (don't even play one on TV), but a look at his location
and a report back to this group might help.

Diana

"Bob Walsh" wrote in message
news:RXpxc.58021$3x.55958@attbi_s54...
Richard,

Considering the comments by V_coerulea are there any gas stations nearby
that are currently, or in the somewhat recent past, been in business. Gas
from a leaky tank can travel in the ground a long way especially if it's
on
top of the water table. You might also call the state petroleum
board/commission/etc. or the EPA office.

Bob

Nope, just "a mall."

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
ink.net...
Ray, did this individual say just where in Stuart he is? I'm very close.
It would be interesting to see the location and environs. I don't pretend
to be a scientist (don't even play one on TV), but a look at his location
and a report back to this group might help.

Diana

"Bob Walsh" wrote in message
news:RXpxc.58021$3x.55958@attbi_s54...
Richard,

Considering the comments by V_coerulea are there any gas stations nearby
that are currently, or in the somewhat recent past, been in business. Gas
from a leaky tank can travel in the ground a long way especially if it's
on
top of the water table. You might also call the state petroleum
board/commission/etc. or the EPA office.

Bob

Detective Diana,

Try:

COUNTRY CLUB FLORIST
3846 SE DIXIE HWY
STUART FL 34997
772 283 1110



Bob

Bad Ju-Ju

Will do, Bob! How did you come by that? SE Dixie, BTW, abuts the RR tracks
at points. Wonder what the cargo trains are carrying? This is getting
interesting.

I started a novel shortly before I took up growing orchids in 1999; it has
gotten short shrift since then. The protagonist is a gal motivational
trainer turned reluctant pseudo detective (that would be me, except that
she's tall, LOL). Haven't taken the time to work on it since orchids became
a passion. Maybe it's time to get back to writing, if I can find some time!

Diana

Oh, HE double hockey sticks, it was right there at the end of the original
post. Some detective.........

Diana

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
k.net...
Will do, Bob! How did you come by that? SE Dixie, BTW, abuts the RR
tracks
at points. Wonder what the cargo trains are carrying? This is getting
interesting.

I started a novel shortly before I took up growing orchids in 1999; it
has
gotten short shrift since then. The protagonist is a gal motivational
trainer turned reluctant pseudo detective (that would be me, except that
she's tall, LOL). Haven't taken the time to work on it since orchids
became
a passion. Maybe it's time to get back to writing, if I can find some
time!

Diana

Diana

From the info in Ray's posting and 411.com.

Bob

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
k.net...
Will do, Bob! How did you come by that? SE Dixie, BTW, abuts the RR
tracks
at points. Wonder what the cargo trains are carrying? This is getting
interesting.

I started a novel shortly before I took up growing orchids in 1999; it
has
gotten short shrift since then. The protagonist is a gal motivational
trainer turned reluctant pseudo detective (that would be me, except that
she's tall, LOL). Haven't taken the time to work on it since orchids
became
a passion. Maybe it's time to get back to writing, if I can find some
time!

Diana

From the info in Ray's posting and 411.com.

Yes, I know. Duh. Anyway, here's what I learned today.

I spoke to Barbara Bucci (co-owner and wife of the man who originally sent
the email to Ray). For starters, the orchids are mostly Phals. Someone
mentioned carnations in this thread; interestingly, their carnations are
also having trouble, as well as alstromeria.

They have occupied this space since 1996, and their problems go back only
about 6 months or so. No new carpet, paint, or any other remodeling. They
are using the same wholesaler as before the problems began. Their neighbors
are an electronics repair store, a restaurant (diner type), a beauty salon
and some 'clean' office businesses. There is a farm stand, but it's about
450 feet away and does not share the actual building or the dumpsters.
There is no dry cleaner in the vicinity. They have installed filters and
done all kinds of other things to attempt to ameliorate the problem, with no
success.

One of my questions for her had to do with the proximity of the RR tracks,
which I knew were right around her location. As it happens, the tracks are
very close to the rear of the building, and there is a stream between the
building and the tracks. All of which leads me to wonder what might have
spilled out of one of those frequently passing freight cars. If I were in
their shoes I'd be on the phone to the EPA, asking for testing of water and
ground samples.

BTW, she was very grateful to know that we'd been discussing this. Small
world. I think Ray may have forwarded the responses, but she asked for them,
so I'm going to send them on as well.

Diana

Hello

and some 'clean' office businesses. There is a farm stand, but it's about
450 feet away and does not share the actual building or the dumpsters.

450 feet is sometimes not enough. I have had to expertize a "sudden
death" syndrome in a poinsettia and african violets grower's nursery.
Nearest farms were around 1 mile from their greenhouses.
Unfortunately, some herbicides can travel even longer distances with
the help of the wind.

Dazomet, trifluralin, thiocarbamate family, sulfonyl urea ones, all
are highly persistent, and possibly carried out by wind. The
poinsettia grower was affected by oryalin.

In the poinsettia/AV case, trifluralin (Treflan (tm) ), used in many
countries, is so volatile that some commercial labs pack their tissue
culture boxes with a trifluralin-wetted pad in a sealed plastic bag to
induce polyploidy.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...ifluralin.html

Symptoms were a lack of growth, chlorosis of the new leaves, die back
of the older ones, flower duration less than a day or two.

Once a nursery has been hitted by that gas or similar ones, it is
totally and definitely impossible for the plants to fully recover, by
that way.

He should try to know whether the farm used that kind of products,
their insurance company name, and try to set up a deal. Most of those
cases are solved with a non-disclosure agreement and payment, and all
that I was involved in, without any exception. 10 people have that
problem, only one notice it, so the company prefers to pay full
strenght than to face a court with 10 plaintiffs. It's the life ! But
I am sure plenty of business have been unknowingly ruined by some sort
of chemical "problem".

One of my questions for her had to do with the proximity of the RR tracks,
which I knew were right around her location. As it happens, the tracks are
very close to the rear of the building, and there is a stream between the
building and the tracks. All of which leads me to wonder what might have
spilled out of one of those frequently passing freight cars. If I were in
their shoes I'd be on the phone to the EPA, asking for testing of water and
ground samples.

It is possible as well. Regarding air testings, they are extremely
difficult to carry out, and the results are impossible to explain. CP
chromatography allowed us to study several hundreds samples of air (
within 50 miles of corn and various farms), all of them had various
levels in nanograms or micrograms of trifluralin, and many others
chemicals. Trifluralin was used 2 years ago for the last time before
we took the samples.

We do not know the lower real permissible limit of most of them. As an
example, EC regulations now allow for 100 ppm lead in the compost,
because most manufacturers can no longer produce products with a lower
content. We do not exactly know about human safety, but it is
"assumed" to be safe.