"Eric Hunt" spaketh thusly:

Yes, there is an enormous amount of natural variation in non-mericloned
species and hybrids. That's why mericloning is so popular - people get
exactly the same thing over thousands of plants.

Not to quibble, but while getting the exact same thing from a
plant propagated from meristematic tissue is *supposed* to be what you
get, this is not always the case. As a function of improper (and sometimes
even "good") lab technique, mutations may occur, and be passed along to
the progeny. Accordingly, thousands or tens of thousands of plants (or
more) may contain these mutations, which will not be discovered until the
plant flowers. With orchids, of course, this can take years.

I think it was a few years ago on the OGD list (then the OLD list)
that one of the growers for Stewart's confessed that their labs had gotten
a little clone-happy with one particular cultivar, and subsequent
propagules proved to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to flowering.
As a result, a large number of people ended up with plants that would, in
all likelihood, never flower for them.

While asexual propagules formed under more ideal conditions (stem
props, divisions, etc.) may not have these problems, those that are
produced from heavy-handed laboratory techniques certainly may, and should
be a consideration.

As for the original query- depending upon the species (or hybrid),
there can be remarkable variability. Occasionally, it is difficult to
classify a given flower as a variety, or an entirely new species. As a
result of this, the proclamation of a "new" paph species should always be
taken with some degree of skepticism.


The e-mail address in the header doesn't work. Sorry.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

I don't know whether or not I see consistency in hybrized seedlings. For
example, take Lc. Mari's Song. Sometimes it is pleloric; sometimes more
yellow; sometimes more pink. Well if one crosses a dominant recessive Hh for
one characteristic and a dominant recessive Rr for another --- Hr HR hr hR.
So, perhaps the offspring are not going to be identical progeny to the
parents.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aaron Hicks wrote:

"Eric Hunt" spaketh thusly:

Yes, there is an enormous amount of natural variation in non-mericloned
species and hybrids. That's why mericloning is so popular - people get
exactly the same thing over thousands of plants.

Not to quibble, but while getting the exact same thing from a
plant propagated from meristematic tissue is *supposed* to be what you
get, this is not always the case. As a function of improper (and sometimes
even "good") lab technique, mutations may occur, and be passed along to
the progeny. Accordingly, thousands or tens of thousands of plants (or
more) may contain these mutations, which will not be discovered until the
plant flowers. With orchids, of course, this can take years.

I think it was a few years ago on the OGD list (then the OLD list)
that one of the growers for Stewart's confessed that their labs had gotten
a little clone-happy with one particular cultivar, and subsequent
propagules proved to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to flowering.
As a result, a large number of people ended up with plants that would, in
all likelihood, never flower for them.

While asexual propagules formed under more ideal conditions (stem
props, divisions, etc.) may not have these problems, those that are
produced from heavy-handed laboratory techniques certainly may, and should
be a consideration.

As for the original query- depending upon the species (or hybrid),
there can be remarkable variability. Occasionally, it is difficult to
classify a given flower as a variety, or an entirely new species. As a
result of this, the proclamation of a "new" paph species should always be
taken with some degree of skepticism.

The e-mail address in the header doesn't work. Sorry.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

I don't know whether or not I see consistency in hybrized seedlings. For
example, take Lc. Mari's Song. Sometimes it is pleloric; sometimes more
yellow; sometimes more pink. Well if one crosses a dominant recessive Hh for
one characteristic and a dominant recessive Rr for another --- Hr HR hr hR.
So, perhaps the offspring are not going to be identical progeny to the
parents.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aaron Hicks wrote:

"Eric Hunt" spaketh thusly:

Yes, there is an enormous amount of natural variation in non-mericloned
species and hybrids. That's why mericloning is so popular - people get
exactly the same thing over thousands of plants.

Not to quibble, but while getting the exact same thing from a
plant propagated from meristematic tissue is *supposed* to be what you
get, this is not always the case. As a function of improper (and sometimes
even "good") lab technique, mutations may occur, and be passed along to
the progeny. Accordingly, thousands or tens of thousands of plants (or
more) may contain these mutations, which will not be discovered until the
plant flowers. With orchids, of course, this can take years.

I think it was a few years ago on the OGD list (then the OLD list)
that one of the growers for Stewart's confessed that their labs had gotten
a little clone-happy with one particular cultivar, and subsequent
propagules proved to be highly (if not entirely) resistant to flowering.
As a result, a large number of people ended up with plants that would, in
all likelihood, never flower for them.

While asexual propagules formed under more ideal conditions (stem
props, divisions, etc.) may not have these problems, those that are
produced from heavy-handed laboratory techniques certainly may, and should
be a consideration.

As for the original query- depending upon the species (or hybrid),
there can be remarkable variability. Occasionally, it is difficult to
classify a given flower as a variety, or an entirely new species. As a
result of this, the proclamation of a "new" paph species should always be
taken with some degree of skepticism.

The e-mail address in the header doesn't work. Sorry.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

Thanks to everyone who responded. It would appear that my phal hybrid
is indeed a spotted pup (good analogy, BTW).

In article , Kenni Judd
wrote:

Some species vary considerably; some not much. Culture can produce
variation; e.g., a Schomb. tibicinis grown in a northern shadehouse is going
to have longer spikes than one grown in full Belizean sun. Light, in
particular, can also influence flower color, more so in some plants than in
others; for example, Epc. Frances Dyer, for us, blooms out a muddy lavender
when grown bright; same exact plant [not a sibling, the same plant] blooms
out a beautiful deep grape-purple when grown shadier.

39" sounds very short for a tibicinis spike, to me, but orchids have taught
me to be very leery of the word "impossible" [along with "always," "never,"
"all," and "none"]. Ours tend to range from 8 to 12 feet; I think I could
get them down to 6' if I carted them out in early spring, to a full sun area
...

Hybrids can be _extremely_ variable, depending on the parentage. Think of
mixed breed puppies -- in a litter of 6, you may have a white, a black, 2
browns and couple of parti-colors. If the two parents are very similar, the
offspring are usually fairly consistent; if the two parents are very
different, the offspring are also more likely to differ substantially from
one another.

Thanks to everyone who responded. It would appear that my phal hybrid
is indeed a spotted pup (good analogy, BTW).

In article , Kenni Judd
wrote:

Some species vary considerably; some not much. Culture can produce
variation; e.g., a Schomb. tibicinis grown in a northern shadehouse is going
to have longer spikes than one grown in full Belizean sun. Light, in
particular, can also influence flower color, more so in some plants than in
others; for example, Epc. Frances Dyer, for us, blooms out a muddy lavender
when grown bright; same exact plant [not a sibling, the same plant] blooms
out a beautiful deep grape-purple when grown shadier.

39" sounds very short for a tibicinis spike, to me, but orchids have taught
me to be very leery of the word "impossible" [along with "always," "never,"
"all," and "none"]. Ours tend to range from 8 to 12 feet; I think I could
get them down to 6' if I carted them out in early spring, to a full sun area
...

Hybrids can be _extremely_ variable, depending on the parentage. Think of
mixed breed puppies -- in a litter of 6, you may have a white, a black, 2
browns and couple of parti-colors. If the two parents are very similar, the
offspring are usually fairly consistent; if the two parents are very
different, the offspring are also more likely to differ substantially from
one another.