Christ almighty! Big Head Carp in the greenhouse!!! Will neem oil keep
them away?

That's like our friends from the North Carolina Department of Transportation
who imported kudzu for erosion control. Now there a whole buildings all
over the southeast that will never erode - if we can find them.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:41:48 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:

Well, that last line ("Am I wrong") sounded snotty when I read it later.
I
didn't mean for it to sound that way. I meant it to sound like I was
asking
for your opinions.

K Barrett


Your not wrong. But, the importers are basically the Phal
growers. The hobby is so large and the collections so diverse -
it will take a long time to hit many of us. Like Hausermann's in
the 70's they are specializing on one thing. At that time you
could walk in the gh and see bare plants unless you timed it to a
holiday. The Catts only bloomed for holiday sales. And the sales
staff had no time for hobby growers... or species. They were
known for attitude. Now there is great diversity and the corsage
orchid is only a small piece of the business.

The bugs are another issue. We just got hit with the Big Head
Carp that were imported for some misguided plan on the
Mississippi. Now they are threatening native fish in 18 states.

SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

(janet_a) wrote in message . com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

(janet_a) wrote in message . com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now - maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.

However, if someone were propose intelligent reform of CITES as it relates
to orchids, I would be sorely tempted to abandon my position.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
(janet_a) wrote in message
. com...
August 24, 2004
Orchids Flourish on Taiwanese Production Line
By KEITH BRADSHER



That's the way capitalism works, folks.

Free trade is the answer to everything; just ask George Bush.


J. Del Col

Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs - which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark, I
was thinking of my friend who actively pursued the Taiwanese and considers
this a great thing for his side of the business. I mean, heck. If facets
of the horticultural industry themselves are happy about the advent of large
offshore GH business outproducing them, then why should I squack? I figure
there must be something that I'm not seeing about the greater economic
forces.

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can see
'em, LOL!

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
news
K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is
most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my
own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers
except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If
indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to buy
a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that
Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors
can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property) make
it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off
shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now -
maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't
have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or
any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark, I
was thinking of my friend who actively pursued the Taiwanese and considers
this a great thing for his side of the business. I mean, heck. If
facets
of the horticultural industry themselves are happy about the advent of
large
offshore GH business outproducing them, then why should I squack? I
figure
there must be something that I'm not seeing about the greater economic
forces.

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies
producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and
oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can
see
'em, LOL!

K Barrett

"David Edgley" wrote in message
news
K,

You might be wrong. I admit my view here is rather narrow and there is
most
likely a larger picture that I am missing. But, I can only speak to my
own
consumer activity. I buy what I like and it simply is not being
produced
domestically. This means I am not a customer of the domestic growers
except
as they import or create what I want. I am not doing my part to keep
some
of these locals in business now and that won't change until they do.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US. So they
are
following in the footsteps of European and Japanese auto makers. If
indeed
the Taiwan growers are setting up shop in the US, they still want to
sell
plants and my guess is the more the better. If local growers want to
buy
a
shipment in bloom to sell at shows or their showroom, it seems that
Taisuco
or whomever would be more than willing to help. I guess I don't see how
selling a quality product hurts local vendors.

David

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:hz6Xc.68047$mD.3084@attbi_s02...
David, I just look at it in terms of dollars and cents. US vendors
can't
compete because the costs of labor, land, utilities, plus governmental
regulations (like being responsble for run-off from your property)
make
it
hard to turn a profit.. Not because they have an inferior product. I
just
hate to see an industry - which some say was created by and takes full
advantage of scientific research US taxpayers paid for - going off
shore.

But I also wonder about Taisuco who bought GHs here and are now -
maybe? -
bypassing the US vendors by having a toe hold in the US so they won't
have
to sell to your local grower. They can bring in their own orchids in
medium, in spike and sell direct. No reason for Al or Pat Brennan or
any
of
your local growers to be middlemen.

Am I wrong?

K Barrett

Really? Easier to see in sphagnum? I wouldn't think so, but hey. What do
I know?

K Barrett

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional
hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark

My interest is only Phal / Dtps. And the offshore breeders / growers are
producing a rainbow of opportunities for me. Harlequins, yes - and have you
seen some of the 4th+ generation Golden Peoker hybrids? Incredible! Also
whites, pinks, yellows, minis, spots, stripes, magenta with stripes (Taisuco
Firebird), yellow with stripes, minis with stripes, yellow minis, blush
minis, white minis, spots & stripes together (Leopard Prince), etc. Phal
types are 98%+ of what I grow and I enjoy their bloom longevity! I never
get tired of looking at Dtps Ever Spring Prince 'Harlequin' where every
flower is different! Can't abide Catt types although I have a couple. Also
have a few good Paphs whose divisions help support my Phal habit. So, I
guess we have differing niches and mine is more than adequately covered by
the Taiwan growers and anyone else who sells top quality Phals! I have
purchased non-Taiwan plants from growers in CA, TX, FL, IL, NY, WA, and
probably more that elude me right now. I vote with my $$$.

David
on beautiful Whidbey Island

Thanks for the engaging thread. I appreciate and respect the way you
"speak" your mind and challenge others to do the same.

I wouldn't mind having plants imported bare root and potted up here. The
thought of new pests is troubling indeed.

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...

Talking about consumer activity, what are the off shore companies
producing
that you want? ( I mean that conversationally, not as a challenge to your
taste) I like the harlequins or some of the phal species, but otherwise
I'm not a big fan of phals. I like flowers that don't hang around for
months and months. I get bored looking at them. I know, I'm weird that
way. Catts are the mass produced orchid that I like. And the Taiwanese
catts - I may be going out on a limb by actually stating an opinion, but
their catts are crap (IMHO) - they never rebloom like how they get them to
bloom at a show. So I stopped buying them because its a waste (IMHO) So
that puts me in the niche domestic market for my domestic catts and
oddball
species. I buy at shows rather than catalogs or online. That way I can
see
'em, LOL!

"David Edgley" wrote in message ...
For the purposes of this newsgroup, I have no political inclination and
would appreciate others keeping politics out of the discussion.


All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

Hi Group;

Just our long winded 2 cents worth.

I had not heard that Taisuco had built facilities in the US

Yes and here in Fl, we also have several South Korean, one Dutch, one English,
several Thai, two Venezulean, three Japanese, one Brazilian and several
Taiwanese companies. I'm sure there are several more that we just haven't found
yet. Most are located in and around Apopoka, FL. (near Orlando) and Homestead
(Miami). Several have been here over five years, and are now supplying most of
the Big Box Orchid markets, through their own marketing companies or to
American middle men. Primary products are Phal. hybrids, Oncidium Alliance,
Cattleya, and Dendrobium hybrids. Last year some of these companies started
bringing in standard Cymbidiums. The Dutch, Japanese, Venezulean are new state
of the art. The others are converted from long standing foliage growing
operations.

The above is for Florida, someone from California, Hawaii, and Arizona can
advise about the "new" facilities in those states. We are having enough trouble
keeping up with the new ones in FL. LOL. All of these facilities have been in
the USA for many years, the NY Times is evidently just now finding out about
them.

Interestingly, the Hawaiian Growers are the most upset, but according to the
2003 USDA Plant survey, Hawaii ranks 18th in potted orchid sales, well below
Calif (#1) and FL (#2), but the Hawaiian import nearly 50% of the plants they
use for potted plant sales. So they stand to lose a chunk of their income.

Actually, the orchid hobbyists are not the "force" behind the Orchid explosion.
It is the floral, interior design businesses and the casual plant buyers which
are feeding the "orchid craze" (Buy it and Throw it away mentality). The
hobbyist is just the beneficiary of this current fad.

As a sign of the times, two years ago Karen and I were visiting one of the
Korean establishments in Apopka. About ten acres under cover, with no less than
100K pots in full bloom, with just as many more in bud. Incredible sight. We
were back several months later, and many of the plants were still there, albeit
out of bloom. This year, we noticed some of the Phal space had been turned
over to lucky bamboo, Ti plants, and money trees. Plus the owner was out on the
plant sale circuit, around Florida, peddling his Phals. (Two spikes 20+
flowers, 2 for $15.00 retail). The "boom" may be off the Phal. market. IMHO,
the potted dendrobium market is the next to get "depressed", one of the
Japanese FL operations has two locations, with ten and seventeen acres under
cover, currently producing so many plants, they cannot sell them all.

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only.

Currently orchid plants can be imported bare root, attached to or in tree fern
fiber, or coconut fiber or husk.

I think the approval, which Taiwan, and now the Dutch, are seeking, covers
"approved growing media" as defined in 7CFR 319.37-8(e)(1) " Approved growing
media are baked expanded clay pellets, coal cinder, coir, cork, glass wool,
organic and inorganic fibers, peat, perlite, phenol formaldehyde, plastic
particles, polyethylene, polymer stabilized starch, polystyrene, polyurethane,
rock wool, sphagnum moss,
ureaformaldehyde, stockosorb superabsorbent polymer, vermiculite, volcanic
rock, or zeolite, or any combination of these media. Growing
media must not have been previously used."
At least their initial petitions and subsequent USDA Final Environmental
Assessment in December, 2003 was for "approved media". The FEA did not
differinate between medias. Actually, I don't think the USDA can differiate,
because of the previous approval of allowing other genera, such as gloxnia and
begonias, in pots, with "approved media".


Just the tip of the iceberg

Jerry

a href="http://www.clanorchids.com/"Camp Lot A Noise Tropicals (C. L. A.
N.)/a http://www.clanorchids.com/
Orchid Species, Hybrids, Supplies, Photos and Books
Chat (941) 352-2483 Fax: (941) 351-2483 X 123 Order Only 1-800-351-CITE

A clean point, thank you. Had you explained it this way the first time
instead of making what appeared to me to be a snide jab at a particular
person, I would not have objected. Politicians from both parties can be
found to support free trade as well as protectionism. Politics makes
strange bedfellows.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

A clean point, thank you. Had you explained it this way the first time
instead of making what appeared to me to be a snide jab at a particular
person, I would not have objected. Politicians from both parties can be
found to support free trade as well as protectionism. Politics makes
strange bedfellows.

David

"J. Del Col" wrote in message
m...
All trade issues are inherently political.

If the Taiwanese can sell better plants at cheaper prices, they win.
That's the way global free trade capitalism works.

If the Hawaiian growers were upfront about it, they'd call for
protection on strictly economic grounds. Right now they sound like
the Japanese rice growers who tried to keep American rice off the
Japanese market on the grounds that it was dirty, when in truth they
just wanted to maintain their domestic monopoly on rice.

The Hawaiians are right; the Taiwanese will almost certainly usurp
their market. The way the WTO rules work, just about the only recourse
the Haiwaiians have is to show that the Taiwanese are dumping orchids
on the market for less than it costs to grow them.

We don't have to go along with the WTO, but we do for various domestic
political purposes.


J. Del Col

Kathy,

I suspect it's the light color and relative ease of removal that makes
critter observation "easier"...

Personally, I don't like the idea - too risky. Granted, the Taiwanese
orchid nurseries are kept meticulously clean, but neither they nor the
shipping containers are hermetically sealed, so the risk is still there.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:lQ1Yc.84402$mD.61372@attbi_s02...
Really? Easier to see in sphagnum? I wouldn't think so, but hey. What
do
I know?

K Barrett

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

If I remember some of my earlier reading correctly, the allowance is for
plants in sphagnum only. While that does not rule out the occasional
hitch
hiking bug, it does make them easier to see.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:gdWXc.322929$a24.80842@attbi_s03...
Well, apart from the real threat that potting medium will hold bugs -
which
no doubt some sort of critter some day will come in hiding in the bark