A rainy day today, and I am investigating color, namely blue. The effects of
temperature and weather on apple color is general knowledge here, and driving
through the orchards I began to wonder which external influences can be used to
heighten the blue color of orchids.

This abstract came up in The Journal of Horticultural Science and Biotechnology:

"This study aimed to understand factors affecting leaf pigmentation of the woody
subtropical plant Chrysobalanus icaco, referred to as cocoplum. The effects of
temperature, UV-light and magnesium treatments were examined at different
developmental stages. Shoot growth intensity and chlorophyll concentrations
increased while anthocyanin concentration decreased with rise in temperature.
UV-a light had a slight effect on shoot growth, but no effect on the pigment
concentration of the leaves. Anthocyanin concentration decreased while
chlorophyll increased as leaves matured. The change in anthocyanin concentration
was due to dilution of the pigment at the early stages of development and its
degradation later on. In an attempt to inhibit anthocyanin degradation in
maturing leaves, whole plants were treated with magnesium salts. Magnesium
increased anthocyanin concentration two fold at the developmental stage at which
degradation was detected in control plants. By controlling UV-a light via
shading, applying magnesium treatments, growers may manipulate both plant height
and colour, thereby increasing the horticultural value of the crops."

This from the Journal of Commodity Science:

M. Fiorini, G. Barbiroli, P.G. Pifferi, "Effect of pH and temperature changes on
the colour of anthocyanins"

Abstract

"Structural transformations of anthocyanins in water solution at different
temperature were observed by measuring objective colour parameters Lightness,
Chroma and Hue according to CIE specifications. The pigments selected for this
study were glycosides of the most common anthocyanidins: Pelargonidin, Cyanidin,
Delphinidin, Petunidin, Peonidin and Malvidin. When pH was increased stepwise
from acid to acidic and then basic values, structural transformations of
anthocyanin pigments resulted in a general increase of Lightness, while Chroma
and Hue showed more complex change patterns. Temperature had a little influence
on the final Lightness, Chroma and Hue values, but at the lower temperature, 10
and 25 °C, Hue values characteristic of blue region were observed for some
anthocyanins at pH values between 3 and 7. Finally, in the experiments where pH
was held at constant values close to 1 and pigment concentration was decreased
by dilution, Lightness, Chroma and Hue changes were completely different from
the previous experiment set. This clearly indicated that colour measurements
were able to distinguish colour changes due to structural transformations from
those changes due to simple dilution effects."

This from Hydrangea production:
For blue sepals:
ample supply of Al (greater than 100 ppm); drench blue plants during Sept. with
Al sulfate, 2 applications 14 days apart
medium N levels (20-30 ppm)
low P level (1-5 ppm)
high K (25-50 ppm)

So my question for you chemistry and orchid fanatics is, how many, if any of
these measures, and which others could be tried to enhance blue color in
orchids?

Measures in short:
-Magnesium
-Aluminum
-Low temps
-Light
-Fertilizer
-pH
-reduced watering

Thanks at least for reading if my thoughts are way off line.
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html






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If you can find this article read it:
1997. Griesbach, R.J. The biochemical basis for the blue flower color
mutations in Doritis pulcherrima and Phalaenopsis violacea. Lindleyana
12:64-71.

In short it says pH in the cell vacuoles of the flower tissue is responsible
for blue in these two species. Cell pH, here, must be bred for. It can not
be altered by manipulating environmental factor like it can be in
hydrangeas. To breed for blue, you must breed for a certain cell pH.

Here is an online link to a nice discussion of pigments and how they work in
orchids to make flower color
http://www.orchidtrek.com/color/color.html

http://www.orchidtrek.com/color/color.html
"Reka" wrote in message
...
A rainy day today, and I am investigating color, namely blue. The effects
of
temperature and weather on apple color is general knowledge here, and
driving
through the orchards I began to wonder which external influences can be
used to
heighten the blue color of orchids.

This abstract came up in The Journal of Horticultural Science and
Biotechnology:

"This study aimed to understand factors affecting leaf pigmentation of the
woody
subtropical plant Chrysobalanus icaco, referred to as cocoplum. The
effects of
temperature, UV-light and magnesium treatments were examined at different
developmental stages. Shoot growth intensity and chlorophyll
concentrations
increased while anthocyanin concentration decreased with rise in
temperature.
UV-a light had a slight effect on shoot growth, but no effect on the
pigment
concentration of the leaves. Anthocyanin concentration decreased while
chlorophyll increased as leaves matured. The change in anthocyanin
concentration
was due to dilution of the pigment at the early stages of development and
its
degradation later on. In an attempt to inhibit anthocyanin degradation in
maturing leaves, whole plants were treated with magnesium salts. Magnesium
increased anthocyanin concentration two fold at the developmental stage at
which
degradation was detected in control plants. By controlling UV-a light via
shading, applying magnesium treatments, growers may manipulate both plant
height
and colour, thereby increasing the horticultural value of the crops."

This from the Journal of Commodity Science:

M. Fiorini, G. Barbiroli, P.G. Pifferi, "Effect of pH and temperature
changes on
the colour of anthocyanins"

Abstract

"Structural transformations of anthocyanins in water solution at different
temperature were observed by measuring objective colour parameters
Lightness,
Chroma and Hue according to CIE specifications. The pigments selected for
this
study were glycosides of the most common anthocyanidins: Pelargonidin,
Cyanidin,
Delphinidin, Petunidin, Peonidin and Malvidin. When pH was increased
stepwise
from acid to acidic and then basic values, structural transformations of
anthocyanin pigments resulted in a general increase of Lightness, while
Chroma
and Hue showed more complex change patterns. Temperature had a little
influence
on the final Lightness, Chroma and Hue values, but at the lower
temperature, 10
and 25 °C, Hue values characteristic of blue region were observed for some
anthocyanins at pH values between 3 and 7. Finally, in the experiments
where pH
was held at constant values close to 1 and pigment concentration was
decreased
by dilution, Lightness, Chroma and Hue changes were completely different
from
the previous experiment set. This clearly indicated that colour
measurements
were able to distinguish colour changes due to structural transformations
from
those changes due to simple dilution effects."

This from Hydrangea production:
For blue sepals:
ample supply of Al (greater than 100 ppm); drench blue plants during Sept.
with
Al sulfate, 2 applications 14 days apart
medium N levels (20-30 ppm)
low P level (1-5 ppm)
high K (25-50 ppm)

So my question for you chemistry and orchid fanatics is, how many, if any
of
these measures, and which others could be tried to enhance blue color in
orchids?

Measures in short:
-Magnesium
-Aluminum
-Low temps
-Light
-Fertilizer
-pH
-reduced watering

Thanks at least for reading if my thoughts are way off line.
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html






---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 27.10.04

Yes, I read that already, but I am not talking about breeding, I am talking
about *enhancing* the blue pigmentation in a flower that already possesses it,
such as Dtps. Kenneth Schubert. Can't it be influenced by external factors? I
know temperature plays a role.
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html

"Al" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
If you can find this article read it:
1997. Griesbach, R.J. The biochemical basis for the blue flower color
mutations in Doritis pulcherrima and Phalaenopsis violacea. Lindleyana
12:64-71.

In short it says pH in the cell vacuoles of the flower tissue is responsible
for blue in these two species. Cell pH, here, must be bred for. It can not
be altered by manipulating environmental factor like it can be in
hydrangeas. To breed for blue, you must breed for a certain cell pH.

Here is an online link to a nice discussion of pigments and how they work in
orchids to make flower color
http://www.orchidtrek.com/color/color.html



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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J Fortuna wrote:
........................... Whatever happened to Mick? He hasn't been around
lately, and I don't remember seeing any posts of his after the latest of the
Florida hurricanes. Does anyone know if Mick is alright?.......................

My goodness, you are right. I just checked and it has been a full 6
weeks since Mick has posted anything.
Quick!! Somebody post some pictures to see if he is here. ;-)

Seriously, I hope he is OK.

Steve

Steve,
What a good idea you had there. :-) And Mike actually did it. And it
produced the foreseen result of bringing Mick out of wherever it is he has
been hiding. So I am guessing he is ok. Even if in a bad mood.
Joanna

"Steve" wrote in message
...


J Fortuna wrote:
........................... Whatever happened to Mick? He hasn't been
around
lately, and I don't remember seeing any posts of his after the latest of
the
Florida hurricanes. Does anyone know if Mick is
alright?.......................

My goodness, you are right. I just checked and it has been a full 6
weeks since Mick has posted anything.
Quick!! Somebody post some pictures to see if he is here. ;-)

Seriously, I hope he is OK.

Steve

Steve,
What a good idea you had there. :-) And Mike actually did it. And it
produced the foreseen result of bringing Mick out of wherever it is he has
been hiding. So I am guessing he is ok. Even if in a bad mood.
Joanna

"Steve" wrote in message
...


J Fortuna wrote:
........................... Whatever happened to Mick? He hasn't been
around
lately, and I don't remember seeing any posts of his after the latest of
the
Florida hurricanes. Does anyone know if Mick is
alright?.......................

My goodness, you are right. I just checked and it has been a full 6
weeks since Mick has posted anything.
Quick!! Somebody post some pictures to see if he is here. ;-)

Seriously, I hope he is OK.

Steve

Reka:

The most logical and straightforward- if not the least expensive-
manner in which to express blue coloration in flowers is through
transgenic processes. Indeed, Florigene has already pulled this off with
roses, expressing delphinidin in flowers. They're still not a good blue,
but that can be improved. There's also a new route involving liver enzymes
that is expected to express blue once the genes have been installed.

Of course, whether it'll light the world on fire is another
matter. Until the burning, urgent need for blue flowers is expressed on
page one of the Wall Street Journal, it'll be another freak.

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Send no mail there.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

Thanks, Aaron, that sounds like it may be promising. Liver, too, since
liverwort *is* a lovely shade of blue! ;-Þ
Is there anything Joe Schmo can do at home to enhance blue color in the orchids
he already owns, however?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html


"Aaron Hicks" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Reka:

The most logical and straightforward- if not the least expensive-
manner in which to express blue coloration in flowers is through
transgenic processes. Indeed, Florigene has already pulled this off with
roses, expressing delphinidin in flowers. They're still not a good blue,
but that can be improved. There's also a new route involving liver enzymes
that is expected to express blue once the genes have been installed.

Of course, whether it'll light the world on fire is another
matter. Until the burning, urgent need for blue flowers is expressed on
page one of the Wall Street Journal, it'll be another freak.

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Send no mail there.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 27.10.04

My blue flowers always look more blue under florescent lights. I have never
heard of anything that you can do to or treat an orchid with that will
intensify a pigment or group of pigments in a specific, predictable way.
You mentioned the intensifying effect of pigments by manipulating light
levels and fertilizer and temperature but I don't think they can be used to
direct the color where you want it to go.

Try watering them with blue food color in the water. Hey, it works on
celery stalks. :-) But start just prior to when the buds form on the spikes
and continue until they are fully imbibed and opening. You might be
surprised. If this is going to work, it would probably be most effective on
those plants which are in a more hydroponics growing situation.



"Reka" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Aaron, that sounds like it may be promising. Liver, too, since
liverwort *is* a lovely shade of blue! ;-Þ
Is there anything Joe Schmo can do at home to enhance blue color in the
orchids
he already owns, however?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html


"Aaron Hicks" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Reka:

The most logical and straightforward- if not the least expensive-
manner in which to express blue coloration in flowers is through
transgenic processes. Indeed, Florigene has already pulled this off with
roses, expressing delphinidin in flowers. They're still not a good blue,
but that can be improved. There's also a new route involving liver
enzymes
that is expected to express blue once the genes have been installed.

Of course, whether it'll light the world on fire is another
matter. Until the burning, urgent need for blue flowers is expressed on
page one of the Wall Street Journal, it'll be another freak.

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Send no mail there.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 27.10.04

AN article written by Bob Griesbach on "Creating Customer Colored Orchid
Flowers" talks of the flavonoids expressing themselves as more blue at
higher pH - just like hydrangeas. If anyone wants a copy, let me know and
I'll email it.

One problems, however, is that orchids absorb nutrition better in a slightly
acid environment.

Maybe one should elevate the pH as the bud grows???

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Al" wrote in message
...
My blue flowers always look more blue under florescent lights. I have
never heard of anything that you can do to or treat an orchid with that
will intensify a pigment or group of pigments in a specific, predictable
way. You mentioned the intensifying effect of pigments by manipulating
light levels and fertilizer and temperature but I don't think they can be
used to direct the color where you want it to go.

Try watering them with blue food color in the water. Hey, it works on
celery stalks. :-) But start just prior to when the buds form on the
spikes and continue until they are fully imbibed and opening. You might
be surprised. If this is going to work, it would probably be most
effective on those plants which are in a more hydroponics growing
situation.



"Reka" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Aaron, that sounds like it may be promising. Liver, too, since
liverwort *is* a lovely shade of blue! ;-Þ
Is there anything Joe Schmo can do at home to enhance blue color in the
orchids
he already owns, however?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html


"Aaron Hicks" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Reka:

The most logical and straightforward- if not the least expensive-
manner in which to express blue coloration in flowers is through
transgenic processes. Indeed, Florigene has already pulled this off with
roses, expressing delphinidin in flowers. They're still not a good blue,
but that can be improved. There's also a new route involving liver
enzymes
that is expected to express blue once the genes have been installed.

Of course, whether it'll light the world on fire is another
matter. Until the burning, urgent need for blue flowers is expressed on
page one of the Wall Street Journal, it'll be another freak.

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Send no mail there.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 27.10.04

AN article written by Bob Griesbach on "Creating Customer Colored Orchid
Flowers" talks of the flavonoids expressing themselves as more blue at
higher pH - just like hydrangeas. If anyone wants a copy, let me know and
I'll email it.

One problems, however, is that orchids absorb nutrition better in a slightly
acid environment.

Maybe one should elevate the pH as the bud grows???

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Al" wrote in message
...
My blue flowers always look more blue under florescent lights. I have
never heard of anything that you can do to or treat an orchid with that
will intensify a pigment or group of pigments in a specific, predictable
way. You mentioned the intensifying effect of pigments by manipulating
light levels and fertilizer and temperature but I don't think they can be
used to direct the color where you want it to go.

Try watering them with blue food color in the water. Hey, it works on
celery stalks. :-) But start just prior to when the buds form on the
spikes and continue until they are fully imbibed and opening. You might
be surprised. If this is going to work, it would probably be most
effective on those plants which are in a more hydroponics growing
situation.



"Reka" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Aaron, that sounds like it may be promising. Liver, too, since
liverwort *is* a lovely shade of blue! ;-Þ
Is there anything Joe Schmo can do at home to enhance blue color in the
orchids
he already owns, however?
--
Reka

This is LIFE! It's not a rehearsal. Don't miss it!
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html


"Aaron Hicks" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

Reka:

The most logical and straightforward- if not the least expensive-
manner in which to express blue coloration in flowers is through
transgenic processes. Indeed, Florigene has already pulled this off with
roses, expressing delphinidin in flowers. They're still not a good blue,
but that can be improved. There's also a new route involving liver
enzymes
that is expected to express blue once the genes have been installed.

Of course, whether it'll light the world on fire is another
matter. Until the burning, urgent need for blue flowers is expressed on
page one of the Wall Street Journal, it'll be another freak.

The e-mail address in the header is not valid. Send no mail there.


-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 27.10.04

Al wrote:
.....................................
..........................................
Try watering them with blue food color in the water. Hey, it works on
celery stalks. :-)..............................................
.................................................. ......................


This thought has often crossed my mind. I've also wondered (assuming it
works even slightly) if AOS judges have judged plants that were treated
this way without their knowledge.

Steve

Al wrote:
.....................................
..........................................
Try watering them with blue food color in the water. Hey, it works on
celery stalks. :-)..............................................
.................................................. ......................


This thought has often crossed my mind. I've also wondered (assuming it
works even slightly) if AOS judges have judged plants that were treated
this way without their knowledge.

Steve