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Old 26-11-2004, 08:06 AM
Steve
 
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Default More of the same or complementary?

One trouble with a single light that doesn't move is that some leaves
end up in the shade. Plants off to the side can be shaded by other
plants. Even if you have wide open spaces between plants (a situation
that NEVER lasts for long) there are leaves on the other side of the
plant. I would hope you have painted the walls white or otherwise
provided a way to reflect some indirect light.
A second bulb at a different location in the room would go a long way in
eliminating the shadows. For this reason, I vote for adding a 400 watt
HPS bulb to what you have. The mix of two different kinds of light is
nice too. I have one grow area with that combination. Don't worry,
either 800 or 1000 watts in a room of that size will still have space
for low light plants.

Steve


Doug wrote:
I'm growing in a 6.5 foot by 10 foot room using a single 400 watt metal halide
bulb suspended vertically with no reflector. The light isn't centered but near
an east window where the high light plants are. I have lower light plants as
well that are nearer to the other side of the room. I'm thinking about
increasing the light to either one 1000 watt metal halide or supplementing the
400 watt mh with a 400 watt high pressure sodium light for a total of 800 watts.

I'm growing cats, oncidiums, coryanthes, stanhopeas, phals and a smattering of
other types.

Which do you think would be the best strategy plantwise?

Doug Bolton

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Old 01-12-2004, 05:30 AM
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Doug wrote:
I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting
about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants
based on their light requirements. Yikes!!


*********** I'm not surprised. 400 Watts isn't very much for the size
of room you described. On the other hand, you don't need to reach the
full light strength that you see recommended for greenhouse growing. As
they say, there are no cloudy days under your lights. One of my grow
areas has only a 400 W MH light and I can bloom almost anything in the
5x5 foot area under it. I do have 2 yellow Catts with mostly high light
species in their background that bloomed rarely under the 400 watt area
but did better under the 800 watt area.


A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the
sodium color. Yuck!



********* I'm with you on that. It took me a while to get used to my
newer light that was half HPS.


............................................... .
..............................................


So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate
on/off switches for either light but I don't think so.


********** My newer light is the 800 W version of the Sun system VII.
Even though the 2 ballasts are enclosed in a single box, there are two
lines going in and 2 coming out. Each of the 2 bulbs has its own cord
going to it. You wouldn't want to pull a plug at the ballast box but
there is nothing wrong with unplugging one back at the wall outlet (or,
more likely, at the timer).

By the way, I turn off my lights for the summer and the plants go
outside. (the few plants that I feel are too tender to go out spend the
summer near some windows.) My outdoor season is 3 months at the most.
The orchids have to endure a few, sometimes several, nights in the 40s
to stretch the season that far. In fact, we usually have a few nights in
July that are in the 40s. The plants put up with it.

Steve







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Old 01-12-2004, 05:30 AM
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Doug wrote:
I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting
about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants
based on their light requirements. Yikes!!


*********** I'm not surprised. 400 Watts isn't very much for the size
of room you described. On the other hand, you don't need to reach the
full light strength that you see recommended for greenhouse growing. As
they say, there are no cloudy days under your lights. One of my grow
areas has only a 400 W MH light and I can bloom almost anything in the
5x5 foot area under it. I do have 2 yellow Catts with mostly high light
species in their background that bloomed rarely under the 400 watt area
but did better under the 800 watt area.


A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the
sodium color. Yuck!



********* I'm with you on that. It took me a while to get used to my
newer light that was half HPS.


............................................... .
..............................................


So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate
on/off switches for either light but I don't think so.


********** My newer light is the 800 W version of the Sun system VII.
Even though the 2 ballasts are enclosed in a single box, there are two
lines going in and 2 coming out. Each of the 2 bulbs has its own cord
going to it. You wouldn't want to pull a plug at the ballast box but
there is nothing wrong with unplugging one back at the wall outlet (or,
more likely, at the timer).

By the way, I turn off my lights for the summer and the plants go
outside. (the few plants that I feel are too tender to go out spend the
summer near some windows.) My outdoor season is 3 months at the most.
The orchids have to endure a few, sometimes several, nights in the 40s
to stretch the season that far. In fact, we usually have a few nights in
July that are in the 40s. The plants put up with it.

Steve







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Old 01-12-2004, 05:49 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Doug wrote:

I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting
about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants
based on their light requirements. Yikes!!

A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the
sodium color. Yuck!

So I've been in a bit of a quandary about this. The consensus I'm getting is to
go with the combination. I'd get more light with a 1000w mh then the 800w
combination, but, as I'm growing indoors I do have a safety concern. MH makes me
nervous. I've done some more reading and discovered the protected bulbs. They've
a quartz sheath over the arc to contain the plasma if something goes wrong.
They're affordable at 400 watts but not really at 1000 watts. And there's the
heat. That'd be a benefit during the winter as I'm currently using a ceramic
heater during the day to get 79-81 degrees. But it wouldn't be too good in the
summer when temps get above that without the added 1000w heat.

You're right about 2 fixed lights giving better coverage than 1 and they could
be arranged so that I could basically leave the plants in the same position.

So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate
on/off switches for either light but I don't think so.

A Plantastar hps looks like a good choice.

Thanks for the input, hope someone else benefits too.


Doug, since you faked your email address (I spoof mine too) I can't
email you directly, but I have a used dual bulb HID fixture for cheap...

I never had a problem with just MH lights. As a sole source of
light it was fine. I don't much like HPS, the yellow color is
unsettling to me.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #5   Report Post  
Old 01-12-2004, 05:49 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Doug wrote:

I did some light meter samples yesterday and found that I'm actually getting
about 1/3 the light I need regardless of where because I've arranged the plants
based on their light requirements. Yikes!!

A 1000 watt bulb would be about right. But I can't imagine living with just the
sodium color. Yuck!

So I've been in a bit of a quandary about this. The consensus I'm getting is to
go with the combination. I'd get more light with a 1000w mh then the 800w
combination, but, as I'm growing indoors I do have a safety concern. MH makes me
nervous. I've done some more reading and discovered the protected bulbs. They've
a quartz sheath over the arc to contain the plasma if something goes wrong.
They're affordable at 400 watts but not really at 1000 watts. And there's the
heat. That'd be a benefit during the winter as I'm currently using a ceramic
heater during the day to get 79-81 degrees. But it wouldn't be too good in the
summer when temps get above that without the added 1000w heat.

You're right about 2 fixed lights giving better coverage than 1 and they could
be arranged so that I could basically leave the plants in the same position.

So now I'm looking at a Sun system 7 to run both. Be nice if it had separate
on/off switches for either light but I don't think so.

A Plantastar hps looks like a good choice.

Thanks for the input, hope someone else benefits too.


Doug, since you faked your email address (I spoof mine too) I can't
email you directly, but I have a used dual bulb HID fixture for cheap...

I never had a problem with just MH lights. As a sole source of
light it was fine. I don't much like HPS, the yellow color is
unsettling to me.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )


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Old 12-12-2004, 07:11 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Good to hear you've tried a dual system and can live without 'cause that's what
I'm trying. Going for 2 400 watt mh. If I really do need to supplement because
the low light plants still aren't getting enough light I'll try a high output
fluorescent. They're only about 12000 lumens but that should be enough.
Expensive though as you throw out the ballast too when you switch bulbs.


That is exactly what I have... Well, that and a greenhouse I'm
still getting used to. Check out the plant room at:

http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/orchids/Growing_room.htm

Skip the high output fluorescents and use a smaller HID light. I
have two 175W going right now, and a 100W one that is still in the box.
A bit more expensive, but more effective and you don't have to throw
away the ballast.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #7   Report Post  
Old 12-12-2004, 07:11 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Good to hear you've tried a dual system and can live without 'cause that's what
I'm trying. Going for 2 400 watt mh. If I really do need to supplement because
the low light plants still aren't getting enough light I'll try a high output
fluorescent. They're only about 12000 lumens but that should be enough.
Expensive though as you throw out the ballast too when you switch bulbs.


That is exactly what I have... Well, that and a greenhouse I'm
still getting used to. Check out the plant room at:

http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/orchids/Growing_room.htm

Skip the high output fluorescents and use a smaller HID light. I
have two 175W going right now, and a 100W one that is still in the box.
A bit more expensive, but more effective and you don't have to throw
away the ballast.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #8   Report Post  
Old 27-12-2004, 10:19 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think I'll need any
supplementary lighting afterall. Checked with a light meter and I'm getting 4x
the light I was with 1 400w mh and a generic ballast. Maximum foot candles has
gone from 2000 to 8000! Happily none of the plants are showing signs of burning.
That did happen when I went from fluorescent tubes to the HID lite.



Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount. Not
so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an
initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be
plenty bright in there. If you check with the meter every couple of
months, you will see a gradual decline after that initial sharp drop.
Eventually the bulbs will burn out. But I wouldn't worry too much
about it. If you replace the bulbs at staggered intervals (they won't
burn out at the same time), you won't have as much of a shock as you did
when you first put your plants under the new system.

Also found I don't need a heater either. Was using a ceramic heater to get 81F
daytime. With the lights the heat increases over the length of time they're on
ending at about 91F. The Coryanthes are happy. Maintaining humidity looks like
the challenge now. 'Till summer comes...


That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big lights.
For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer designed
powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look more
space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your cord is
long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a problem
with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current setup,
due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are getting
up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider
venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent and a
muffin fan will solve a lot of problems....

I'm quite happy with my little Jaybird Fogger... It is hooked up to
my RO system, and spins water into the air centrifugally. Makes a
really fine mist. RO water is best, otherwise you will end up with
powder all over your plants. I got mine used, but they aren't terribly
expensive (compared to the lights and plants). Get a humidistat too. I
really enjoyed working with that company when I needed some spare parts.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #9   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 02:21 PM
dd
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Rob Halgren
wrote:

Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think I'll need any
supplementary lighting afterall.

snips here and below
Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount. Not
so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an
initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be
plenty bright in there.


I replace my 400 watt MH bulb every fall. It does not burn during the
summer months because the plants are summered outside. When I replace
the bulb, I follow this procedu Catts and their crosses that have
just finished summering outside go under the fixture, which is about
3.5 feet to 4 feet above the humidity trays and is next to a
south-facing window. (By this time, they've set sheaths, which
continue to develop with no danger of burning.) New plants or
windowsill plants get moved to the side of the fixture so they don't
burn-- they also get light from the windows. After a month, they can be
brought in closer to the HID light.


Also found I don't need a heater either.


Yep, the light puts out a lot of heat. Because I have many humidity
trays and a room set off from the rest of the house, I have no problem
with humidity. Humidity trays DO work in an enclosed environment. This
morning, it is 6 degrees F. outside, with relative humidity in the 50s.
The relative humidity inside the orchid room is 75%, just from the
humidity trays. The downside of using humidity trays is that they get a
lot of algae and require dumping and cleaning (about every 10 days for
me). You might be happier with a fogger--it will certainly save time.

That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big lights.
For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer designed
powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look more
space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your cord is
long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a problem
with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current setup,
due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are getting
up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider
venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent and a
muffin fan will solve a lot of problems....


The humming of a ballast is, to me, VERY annoying. Because my office
is also "the orchidarium, " I had an electrician drill a hole in the
floor, replace the short balast cord with a long one, and put the
ballast box in the garage below, where I can't hear it. It's on a
timer, so I don't have to horse around with going downstairs to turn it
off and on. The ballast box also puts out heat, which I don't need,
and you probably don't either, so putting the box in the garage was a
good solution.

DD
  #10   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 03:05 PM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default

DD,

Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an algae
problem.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"dd" wrote in message
...
In article , Rob Halgren
wrote:

Well, I've installed the 2 400 watt mh lights and I don't think
I'll need any
supplementary lighting afterall.

snips here and below
Check again in a few weeks, it will drop a significant amount.
Not
so much that you need to worry about it, but the bulbs do have an
initial burn in period (like fluorescent tubes). It will still be
plenty bright in there.


I replace my 400 watt MH bulb every fall. It does not burn during
the
summer months because the plants are summered outside. When I
replace
the bulb, I follow this procedu Catts and their crosses that
have
just finished summering outside go under the fixture, which is
about
3.5 feet to 4 feet above the humidity trays and is next to a
south-facing window. (By this time, they've set sheaths, which
continue to develop with no danger of burning.) New plants or
windowsill plants get moved to the side of the fixture so they don't
burn-- they also get light from the windows. After a month, they can
be
brought in closer to the HID light.


Also found I don't need a heater either.


Yep, the light puts out a lot of heat. Because I have many humidity
trays and a room set off from the rest of the house, I have no
problem
with humidity. Humidity trays DO work in an enclosed environment.
This
morning, it is 6 degrees F. outside, with relative humidity in the
50s.
The relative humidity inside the orchid room is 75%, just from the
humidity trays. The downside of using humidity trays is that they
get a
lot of algae and require dumping and cleaning (about every 10 days
for
me). You might be happier with a fogger--it will certainly save
time.

That is a fortunate (or unfortunate) side effect of the big
lights.
For some systems (Hydrofarm, for sure) you can get manufacturer
designed
powered venting. Like dryer vents with a fan... Makes it look
more
space-agey in your basement. Remote ballasts help too, if your
cord is
long enough to reach outside the plant room. I've not had a
problem
with excess heat in the several years that I've had my current
setup,
due to the location of the room in the basement. But if you are
getting
up to 91F in the winter with your setup, you will want to consider
venting some of that heat out of there. Be creative, a dryer vent
and a
muffin fan will solve a lot of problems....


The humming of a ballast is, to me, VERY annoying. Because my
office
is also "the orchidarium, " I had an electrician drill a hole in
the
floor, replace the short balast cord with a long one, and put the
ballast box in the garage below, where I can't hear it. It's on a
timer, so I don't have to horse around with going downstairs to turn
it
off and on. The ballast box also puts out heat, which I don't need,
and you probably don't either, so putting the box in the garage was
a
good solution.

DD





  #11   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 05:48 PM
dd
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try!

I've undoubted created some of the problem myself by (1) using white
humidity trays which show every bit of crud, and (2) flooding the pots
in situ, which causes an unsavory mix of things to come out of the
drain holes: S/H particulate matter, decayed root sludge from orchids
recently potted in S/H, algae in the S/H pots, and decomposing bark in
bark-based media. That combines with drowned gnats in the humidity
trays to create an less-than-wonderful appearance. (I run three fans
and use sticky traps, but I still have some gnats.)


In article , Ray
wrote:

DD,

Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an algae
problem.

  #12   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 06:00 PM
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I doubt the tray color does all that much.

ANY time there's light, water, and nutrition, there WILL be algae!

Bleach is another alternative; cheaper, but doesn't smell as nice.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"dd" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try!

I've undoubted created some of the problem myself by (1) using white
humidity trays which show every bit of crud, and (2) flooding the
pots
in situ, which causes an unsavory mix of things to come out of the
drain holes: S/H particulate matter, decayed root sludge from
orchids
recently potted in S/H, algae in the S/H pots, and decomposing bark
in
bark-based media. That combines with drowned gnats in the humidity
trays to create an less-than-wonderful appearance. (I run three
fans
and use sticky traps, but I still have some gnats.)


In article , Ray
wrote:

DD,

Add a little Physan to your tray water and you'll never have an
algae
problem.



  #13   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 07:47 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ray wrote:

I doubt the tray color does all that much.

ANY time there's light, water, and nutrition, there WILL be algae!

Bleach is another alternative; cheaper, but doesn't smell as nice.


Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It
doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than
regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added
to bleach nowdays, very fashionable...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #14   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 08:10 PM
Al
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I use 'country fresh' when flasking. It does mask the chlorine smell
somewhat and there is nothing more pleasant then choking on "country fresh"
chlorine gas fumes. I might have to try the lemon or orange scent.

Physan in the trays works a bit to hold off algae. At least it did in my
trays when I grew in the basement. Chlorine, physan, whatever...the trays
still need to be cleaned out several times a year and the gravel rinsed of
debris. And of course, it goes without saying that one needs to be doubly
careful to keep roots out of chlorine or physan impregnated humidity/catch
tray water.


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It
doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than
regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added to
bleach nowdays, very fashionable...



  #15   Report Post  
Old 28-12-2004, 08:10 PM
Al
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I use 'country fresh' when flasking. It does mask the chlorine smell
somewhat and there is nothing more pleasant then choking on "country fresh"
chlorine gas fumes. I might have to try the lemon or orange scent.

Physan in the trays works a bit to hold off algae. At least it did in my
trays when I grew in the basement. Chlorine, physan, whatever...the trays
still need to be cleaned out several times a year and the gravel rinsed of
debris. And of course, it goes without saying that one needs to be doubly
careful to keep roots out of chlorine or physan impregnated humidity/catch
tray water.


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Unless you use the lemon scented bleach... Which is what I do. It
doesn't actually smell much like lemons, but it smells a lot better than
regular bleach. Actually there are a number of different scents added to
bleach nowdays, very fashionable...



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