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  #16   Report Post  
Old 30-11-2004, 05:29 PM
K Barrett
 
Posts: n/a
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"danny" wrote in message
...
Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used

for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex.



For what its worth, danny, I agree with you.


Are the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant?



No they are not because they are not AOS awards. Nor are HOS or CSA awards
taken into account.



I didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the

tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at

it on the judging table?


No you would not know it was an RHS awarded plant if you saw it on the
judging table. Because the RHS award aren't taken into account.



If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It

would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.



Again, for what its worth, I agree too. But I do see the value in awarding
a higher AM. Again it gets the flower's quality into the system.

K Barrett


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...
Gene Schurg wrote:

My point of this thread is that I would expect that a plant awarded an

FCC
from the RHS (or other group) should also score very high by other
organizations. At least that is what I thought until this discussion.

I
find it interesting that a search of your files only yielded a short

list
of
plants with FCCs from both organizations.

It appears that a plant with an FCC from AOS may not get equal

consideration
by the RHS and vice versa.


Hmmm. Ok, I'll give my personal opinion as a probationary AOS judge
here. They can kick me out if I'm wrong... *grin* In my opinion, it is
not worthwhile to give a plant the same quality award from the AOS and
the RHS simultaneously. The purpose of the award system is to
acknowledge superior plants for purposes of advancing the horticultural
desirability of orchids. In other words, plants with awards are more
desirable than plants without awards, and the award designation helps
the public select better plants, and helps the breeder select better
crosses. Probably most importantly, although it shouldn't be, it is a
system for financially rewarding the grower of the awarded plant.

What does all that mean? It means as a breeder and plantsman, I
know that Paph. Winston Churchill 'Redoubtable' FCC/RHS is a damn fine
specimen of paphly beauty. I don't even need to see the picture, and
pictures lie anyway. I can purchase this plant and be assured that it
is of high quality. I can breed with this plant and presume that the
progeny will have a higher probability of being 'successful' than if I
use the Winston Churchill "Joe Schmoe" clone that I picked up off the
raffle table (although "Indomitable" is a more successful parent, if I
recall correctly). Does it supercede my own aesthetic reasoning? It
shouldn't. If my "Joe Schmoe" clone is nicer in some respect (color,
shape, etc) than some FCC or AM plant, then it is my choice to use it, I
just can't be assured that the plant buying public will be as apt to
purchase my cross. Their loss, and mine, if I'm a commercial grower.

Anyway, an FCC/RHS or an FCC/AOS is pretty much the same in my
book. The plants would be equally valuable. I don't see much point in
giving an AOS award to an RHS awarded plant. It just makes the
exhibitor pay another 35 dollars. It is quite another thing to promote
an AM/RHS to an FCC/AOS (or vice versa, I suppose). That is a higher
ranked award, and makes the plant correspondingly more valuable. I am
in favor of promoting awards when that is merited. We just did that on
a Phrag a few weeks ago (78pt HCC/AOS promoted to something well over 80
points AM).

Random ramblings on my last day of work...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )





  #17   Report Post  
Old 30-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wendy7 wrote:

Right on Rob, I love your "Random ramblings" & "Rob's rules"!
You say it's your last day of work, are you going on vacation or
are you retiring?


I wish I was retiring... Actually I'm quite outspoken. No, I've
been offered a different position (still at MSU) at faculty rank, in a
different department. It would be stupid not to take it. However, I'm
treating myself to a month off in between. Although that will be more
like a month of working like a slave around the house (and greenhouse)
trying to catch up on 3 years worth of unfinished projects.

Also what is the name of the Phrag that was given 80 points?

What, I'm supposed to remember names? *grin* I remember what it looked like (pink). I remember the owner (Dot Potter Barnett). I remember that the previous award was last year (78pt HCC/AOS). I remember that we didn't realize it had a previous award (since it hadn't been published yet), and only discovered the HCC after we had given it... oh, 83 points, i think. I remember that the previous award was to one flower and one bud, this award had 9 flowers and multiple buds on a single inflorescence. And for those keeping score at home, it was growing in Ray's Prime Agra semihydroponic medium. Enough to convince me to try it, anyway. All that and I can't remember the name...

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #18   Report Post  
Old 30-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wendy7 wrote:

Right on Rob, I love your "Random ramblings" & "Rob's rules"!
You say it's your last day of work, are you going on vacation or
are you retiring?


I wish I was retiring... Actually I'm quite outspoken. No, I've
been offered a different position (still at MSU) at faculty rank, in a
different department. It would be stupid not to take it. However, I'm
treating myself to a month off in between. Although that will be more
like a month of working like a slave around the house (and greenhouse)
trying to catch up on 3 years worth of unfinished projects.

Also what is the name of the Phrag that was given 80 points?

What, I'm supposed to remember names? *grin* I remember what it looked like (pink). I remember the owner (Dot Potter Barnett). I remember that the previous award was last year (78pt HCC/AOS). I remember that we didn't realize it had a previous award (since it hadn't been published yet), and only discovered the HCC after we had given it... oh, 83 points, i think. I remember that the previous award was to one flower and one bud, this award had 9 flowers and multiple buds on a single inflorescence. And for those keeping score at home, it was growing in Ray's Prime Agra semihydroponic medium. Enough to convince me to try it, anyway. All that and I can't remember the name...

Rob


--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #19   Report Post  
Old 30-11-2004, 06:06 PM
Rob Halgren
 
Posts: n/a
Default

danny wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to give the same level AOS award to the plant? That
would put the plant in the AOS judging system, so that it could be used for
future comparison when considering other awards for the species/grex. Are
the RHS awards looked at by AOS judges when they are scoring a plant? I
didn't think that was the case. If someone didn't put XX/RHS on the tag,
would you even know it was an RHS awarded plant when you were looking at it
on the judging table?



That is an excellent point, and well taken. And no, we don't look
at the RHS awards (we should, and I was just thinking about writing a
paper on that topic). However, I don't really believe in putting
something into the AOS judging system just to put it on record. I know
that many people do, there is an honest difference of opinion there. If
somebody didn't put the RHS award on the tag, then it is likely to get
an AOS award if it is sufficiently new. Older plants get judged by the
current standards, it would be hard to give some of the old FCCs an HCC
today. But even if the RHS award is on the tag, it can still get an AOS
award, there is no rule against it.

All that said, if somebody knows enough about the plant to put the
RHS award on the tag, then they know that the plant is valuable. I
don't know why an exhibitor would want to add an AOS award to the list.
You wouldn't get any more money for selling it or its progeny, at least
to the kind of people who would pay extra for that kind of thing. The
awards are equally good. That is my opinion, of course, and others feel
differently.

And as a final point, I definitely think that the AOS should
consider looking at RHS awards in the research phase of judging. The
systems are similar enough that they can be rationally compared, and the
more information the better, in my opinion. I base my score on a
representation of the 'ideal flower' for a given type of breeding. Sure
would be nice to know what is possible on the other side of the pond,
for developing my image of what is possible.

If someone brings a plant to a monthly judging session, then your "It would
cost them another $35 dollars" argument wouldn't apply at all. If an
exhibitor in a show doesn't want to pay $35, they can simply mark their
plant "Not for AOS Judging". I know many judges are reluctant to do
something like upgrading an 80 point AM/AOS to an 85 point AM/AOS because
they don't think there's any point, and I kinda agree with them there.
Witholding an award from a plant because it has an award from a judging
organization in another country doesn't make any sense at all.


I debated mentioning that in the last post... Yes, if a plant is
brought specifically for AOS judging, then obviously the owner would
like to pay for an award. We see about half our award plants at shows,
and you would be surprised at how many people don't put "Not for AOS
judging" on their tags.

As for withholding an award, I don't think I said we would do
that... A plant will be judged on its merits. If a plant has a
previous AOS award to the same clone, we know what to compare it to. Is
it better than the previous award? How does this improvement compare to
the current state of the art? If a plant has an RHS award, we lack the
literature to see what it looked like at the time it was awarded. That
doesn't prevent us from comparing it to what we think is current.
Nothing on the tag precludes a plant from an AOS quality award.

Would I pull an awarded plant for judging out of an exhibit at a
show? Probably not, unless I know that the bloom is superior to its
previous award. It just isn't time efficient (or customary, for that
matter) to pull every awarded plant and reevaluate it to see if it is
better than the previous award. Nobody has time for that. But if a
person brings it to AOS judging, we will look at it. In our region we
look at everything that comes to the judging center, rather than
nominating plants from the floor.

It is certainly complicated...

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit
LittlefrogFarm is open - e-mail me for a list )
  #20   Report Post  
Old 02-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Pat Brennan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gene,

I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some
pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I have
seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is time
to learn about these award systems.

As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I
think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into one.
It is a special plant that can carry both awards.

As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into
so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for
over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses, especially
those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at
the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the
plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no
premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major
outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded
plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship between
price and award level of the blooming plants being offered.

I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for selecting
plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors
essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as
the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid
flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would
not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a
year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or without
the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is time
to move on.

The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower
quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered today.
An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for
assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4 years
old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it is
sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be
return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the
clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying
awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your
collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are
also offered.

In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit
humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when a
plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning
is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award.

Pat

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pat,

I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for
you
to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the
heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in
their
homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills.

Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does
one
award increase the value of the cross more than the other?

I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a
ranking
of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc?

I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a
plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other
groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I
should.


Gene





  #21   Report Post  
Old 02-12-2004, 06:19 PM
Pat Brennan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gene,

I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some
pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I have
seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is time
to learn about these award systems.

As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I
think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into one.
It is a special plant that can carry both awards.

As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into
so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for
over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses, especially
those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at
the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the
plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no
premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major
outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded
plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship between
price and award level of the blooming plants being offered.

I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for selecting
plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors
essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as
the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid
flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would
not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a
year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or without
the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is time
to move on.

The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower
quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered today.
An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for
assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4 years
old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it is
sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be
return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the
clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying
awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your
collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are
also offered.

In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit
humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when a
plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning
is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award.

Pat

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pat,

I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for
you
to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the
heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in
their
homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills.

Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does
one
award increase the value of the cross more than the other?

I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a
ranking
of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc?

I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a
plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other
groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I
should.


Gene



  #22   Report Post  
Old 02-12-2004, 07:06 PM
Gene Schurg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Pat,

All good points.

Nothing beats seeing a plant in bloom so you can judge for yourself if you
like it. No one wants to grow a flower and not enjoy it.

I hope all is well out in the valley.

Gene



"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Gene,

I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some
pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I

have
seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is

time
to learn about these award systems.

As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I
think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into

one.
It is a special plant that can carry both awards.

As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into
so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for
over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses,

especially
those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at
the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the
plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no
premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major
outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded
plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship

between
price and award level of the blooming plants being offered.

I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for

selecting
plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors
essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as
the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid
flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would
not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a
year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or

without
the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is

time
to move on.

The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower
quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered

today.
An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for
assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4

years
old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it

is
sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be
return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the
clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying
awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your
collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are
also offered.

In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit
humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when

a
plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning
is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award.

Pat

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pat,

I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for
you
to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the
heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in
their
homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills.

Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does
one
award increase the value of the cross more than the other?

I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a
ranking
of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc?

I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a
plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other
groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I
should.


Gene





  #23   Report Post  
Old 02-12-2004, 07:06 PM
Gene Schurg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Pat,

All good points.

Nothing beats seeing a plant in bloom so you can judge for yourself if you
like it. No one wants to grow a flower and not enjoy it.

I hope all is well out in the valley.

Gene



"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Gene,

I do not know much about the CSA and HOS awards, sorry. I have seen some
pretty weak BM & SM/WOC, but it could be they were just old awards. I

have
seen plants with awards from orchid societies in Asia and expect it is

time
to learn about these award systems.

As has already been said, AOS and RHS awards measure different things. I
think of RHS as sort of AOS award and AOS ribbon judging combined into

one.
It is a special plant that can carry both awards.

As to which award raises the plant value more . . .I could get myself into
so much trouble here. I have made my living selling blooming plants for
over a decade now and I have found that an award does not really change a
plants value. I know this is not true for all orchid businesses,

especially
those marketing non blooming plants. Before anyone calls me nuts, look at
the flask and plug offerings from the major cloning labs, very few of the
plants will be carrying awards and those which do have awards carry no
premium; look at the orchids for sale in the box stores or other major
outlets and try to find a price difference between awarded and nonawarded
plants; or even go to an orchid show and try to find a relationship

between
price and award level of the blooming plants being offered.

I disagree with those that say an AOS award is a good measure for

selecting
plants for ownership or breeding. The system does not consider factors
essential for making those measures. Instead I view the judging system as
the AOS means for tracking and documenting the current state of orchid
flowers. In a recent survey of judges, 23% of the judges said they would
not award a plant if an equal plant from the same cross had been awarded a
year before. The second plant is just as good as the first with or

without
the award, AOS has documented the cross with the first award and it is

time
to move on.

The state of orchid flowers moves fairly quickly. In many cases flower
quality that was awarded five years ago would not even be considered

today.
An award without knowing the date of the award is pretty meaningless for
assessing the flower quality. A cross is most likely to be at least 4

years
old before a plant is mature enough to be awarded. If after the award it

is
sent to the lab, it is another two years before clone flasks start to be
return. Compot, 2.5" pot, 4" pot - at least another 3 years before the
clones are blooming, nine years after the cross was first made. Buying
awarded clone might not always put the best quality flowers in your
collection when seedlings a couple of generations ahead of the clones are
also offered.

In all of this please do not get me wrong. I am always honored and a bit
humbled when granted an AOS award. I addition it is always very cool when

a
plant you are currently breeding with or have already sent out for cloning
is pulled out of an exhibit and granted an award.

Pat

"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pat,

I agree with you on the profit potential metrics. It would be great for
you
to have lots of FCC certificates but it's customer demand that pays the
heating bill. You have to grow plants that people want to display in
their
homes. Us crazy collectors don't buy enough to pay the bills.

Do you feel an FCC from the RHS is equal to an FCC from the AOS? Does
one
award increase the value of the cross more than the other?

I see lots of awards for plants from different groups. Is there a
ranking
of RHS awards are worth more than CSA, CSA worth more than HOS, etc?

I guess I've always been tuned to look for AOS awards as a measure of a
plant that has good potential. When I see these other awards from other
groups I don't really give them the credit they deserve and maybe I
should.


Gene





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