Orchidaceae vs. Cypripediaceae
 

Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

You're just stirring up debate, aren't you, Al?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
..
"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

I have read somewhere that ladyslippers are the oldest type of orchid, and
that therefore they are in some essential ways different from any other
orchids that evolved differently later -- in other words there are some
characteristics that all other orchids share, but that the ladyslippers do
not have, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but I will
search for the article online and if I find it I will post a link.

I read another article claiming that the closest non-orchid relative of the
orchids is the asparagus (I remember the title of the article was "An Orchid
by Any Other Name: An Asparagus?). I think one of the point was that if you
look at a spike before the buds have formed, you can see the resemblance.
But then I heard someone else say that some other flowering plant family is
a closer relative to the orchids. Was it lilies? I think it was, since
peloric cattleyas without lips look like lilies, and isn't the brassavola
nadosa similar to peace lilies, so I could see how they could be distant
relatives.

Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

It's a trick question, I suppose. If the distinction between the two groups
is actually made at the family level as the names suggests then all genera
and species in the Cyp group are outside the Orchid family, taxonomically
speaking. Are there any other orchids that are not inside the orchidaceae?
;-)

So there is something behind that old joke, often heard at orchid society
meetings: "Ladyslippers are not real orchids." I thought it was just to get
a rise out of the slipper crowd.

Is this like asking if Doritis and Phalaenopsis are two separate genus or
part of the same one, except asking it of "families" two or three flights
above the genus level?

What's the difference between orchids and ladyslippers other than those
insignificant differences in the flower parts and reproductive organs? :-)

Is this a currently accepted classification? Do the taxonomically gifted
place the cyps in a subfamily status and is that suffix "aceae" used to
denote other than family level divisions?

Have I lost my mind? ...wait. Don't answer that one.

Al

"Ray" wrote in message
...
You're just stirring up debate, aren't you, Al?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

It's a trick question, I suppose. If the distinction between the two groups
is actually made at the family level as the names suggests then all genera
and species in the Cyp group are outside the Orchid family, taxonomically
speaking. Are there any other orchids that are not inside the orchidaceae?
;-)

So there is something behind that old joke, often heard at orchid society
meetings: "Ladyslippers are not real orchids." I thought it was just to get
a rise out of the slipper crowd.

Is this like asking if Doritis and Phalaenopsis are two separate genus or
part of the same one, except asking it of "families" two or three flights
above the genus level?

What's the difference between orchids and ladyslippers other than those
insignificant differences in the flower parts and reproductive organs? :-)

Is this a currently accepted classification? Do the taxonomically gifted
place the cyps in a subfamily status and is that suffix "aceae" used to
denote other than family level divisions?

Have I lost my mind? ...wait. Don't answer that one.

Al

"Ray" wrote in message
...
You're just stirring up debate, aren't you, Al?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!
.
"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

The only mention of this issue that I could find on the Internet today was
on this page:

http://www.killerplants.com/plant-of...k/20040426.asp
"Lady's slippers differ from the rest of the orchids in having two lateral
anthers and two stigmas. Some taxonomists feel these differences should
place the lady's slippers into a separate and older family in the order
Orchidales."

However, I am pretty sure that I once read another article online that went
into more detail on the evolution of ladyslippers, and on the differences
between them and other orchids, but alas I can't find it again (at least not
today).

Joanna

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
news:GZIBd.31279$h.5982@trnddc04...

I have read somewhere that ladyslippers are the oldest type of orchid, and
that therefore they are in some essential ways different from any other
orchids that evolved differently later -- in other words there are some
characteristics that all other orchids share, but that the ladyslippers do
not have, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but I
will
search for the article online and if I find it I will post a link.

I read another article claiming that the closest non-orchid relative of
the
orchids is the asparagus (I remember the title of the article was "An
Orchid
by Any Other Name: An Asparagus?). I think one of the point was that if
you
look at a spike before the buds have formed, you can see the resemblance.
But then I heard someone else say that some other flowering plant family
is
a closer relative to the orchids. Was it lilies? I think it was, since
peloric cattleyas without lips look like lilies, and isn't the brassavola
nadosa similar to peace lilies, so I could see how they could be distant
relatives.

Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

The only mention of this issue that I could find on the Internet today was
on this page:

http://www.killerplants.com/plant-of...k/20040426.asp
"Lady's slippers differ from the rest of the orchids in having two lateral
anthers and two stigmas. Some taxonomists feel these differences should
place the lady's slippers into a separate and older family in the order
Orchidales."

However, I am pretty sure that I once read another article online that went
into more detail on the evolution of ladyslippers, and on the differences
between them and other orchids, but alas I can't find it again (at least not
today).

Joanna

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
news:GZIBd.31279$h.5982@trnddc04...

I have read somewhere that ladyslippers are the oldest type of orchid, and
that therefore they are in some essential ways different from any other
orchids that evolved differently later -- in other words there are some
characteristics that all other orchids share, but that the ladyslippers do
not have, if I remember correctly. I don't remember the details, but I
will
search for the article online and if I find it I will post a link.

I read another article claiming that the closest non-orchid relative of
the
orchids is the asparagus (I remember the title of the article was "An
Orchid
by Any Other Name: An Asparagus?). I think one of the point was that if
you
look at a spike before the buds have formed, you can see the resemblance.
But then I heard someone else say that some other flowering plant family
is
a closer relative to the orchids. Was it lilies? I think it was, since
peloric cattleyas without lips look like lilies, and isn't the brassavola
nadosa similar to peace lilies, so I could see how they could be distant
relatives.

Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...
Are ladyslippers in the orchid family?

Al this article provides some interesting info

http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/86/2/208

Dave

http://www.monocots3.org/pdf/classif.pdf

On the other hand if anyone can make sense of THIS one please let me
know HOW????

Dave

http://www.monocots3.org/pdf/classif.pdf

On the other hand if anyone can make sense of THIS one please let me
know HOW????

Dave

family
Orchidaceae

subfamily
Apostasioideae
Cypripedioideae
Epidendroideae
Orchidoideae
Vanilloideae?

Well, I feel a little better now. -oideae vs -aceae

For the record, that link was way over my head, but interesting to scan.
Very interesting. If I were to re-read it a dozen times something important
might sink in. It seems to be saying that classic taxonomic classifications
of orchids and the more modern gene based cladistic studies produce (for the
most part) similar groupings.

"Dave Fouchey" wrote in message
...
Al this article provides some interesting info

http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/86/2/208

Dave

family
Orchidaceae

subfamily
Apostasioideae
Cypripedioideae
Epidendroideae
Orchidoideae
Vanilloideae?

Well, I feel a little better now. -oideae vs -aceae

For the record, that link was way over my head, but interesting to scan.
Very interesting. If I were to re-read it a dozen times something important
might sink in. It seems to be saying that classic taxonomic classifications
of orchids and the more modern gene based cladistic studies produce (for the
most part) similar groupings.

"Dave Fouchey" wrote in message
...
Al this article provides some interesting info

http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/86/2/208

Dave

I know that paphs don't have chloroplasts in their guard cells.

Does that help you any?

K barrett

"Al" wrote in message
...
family
Orchidaceae

subfamily
Apostasioideae
Cypripedioideae
Epidendroideae
Orchidoideae
Vanilloideae?

Well, I feel a little better now. -oideae vs -aceae

For the record, that link was way over my head, but interesting to scan.
Very interesting. If I were to re-read it a dozen times something
important
might sink in. It seems to be saying that classic taxonomic
classifications
of orchids and the more modern gene based cladistic studies produce (for
the
most part) similar groupings.

"Dave Fouchey" wrote in message
...
Al this article provides some interesting info

http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/86/2/208

Dave

Ray wrote:
You're just stirring up debate, aren't you, Al?


LOL, I was going to accuse him of being a troll, albeit a friendly one.
Then I looked ahead and saw that there were 7 replies already.

Steve

I read another article claiming that the closest non-orchid relative of
the
orchids is the asparagus (I remember the title of the article was "An
Orchid
by Any Other Name: An Asparagus?). I think one of the point was that if
you
look at a spike before the buds have formed, you can see the resemblance.

That article was in the New York Times; I remember the asparagus reference.
Can't say just when, though. A year or two ago.

Diana