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  #31   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2004, 04:19 PM
pearl
 
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Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

"Chuck" wrote in message
ink.net...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 02:47:37 -0500, "Gordon Couger"

wrote:

Then for a true picture the total yield in some unit, dollar or pounds
sterling per acre in total yield of wheat, feed, fiber meat and what ever
should be totaled up and divided by the number of years in the study

giving
true value of the output of an organic farming operation per unit area
compared to a conventional or modern farm. Showing how much far they are
really behind modern methods. With total production nearer 25% or less

that
of a modern farm ran in an intensive operation.


Compare the yields here; http://tinyurl.com/uvdi .
Bear in mind;
'2. Lower yields are experienced during the transition to organic

production
Most researchers agree that yields tend to drop for three to five
years during the conversion from industrial to organic approaches (Dabbert
and Madden, 1986; US Congress, 1983; Hanson et al, 1990; Lampkin,
1989; Smolik and Dobbs, 1991). This is because it takes time for the soil
to develop the positive attributes associated with organic agriculture. It
also takes time for operators to learn organic crop management techniques.
Some of the lower organic crop yield estimates cited in Exhibit III-1
may have been from industrial farms in transition to organic production.

Given that organic production relies on soil fertility and a healthy,
diverse soil ecosystem, the yield reductions experienced in the initial
phases of transition from industrial practices tend to be eliminated over
time (Sparling et al, 1992; pers. comm. Cornwoman; pers. comm. Tourte).
We note that the economic transition time can be twice as long as the
biological transition time; it can take an extra four years for the
farmer to fully recoup the financial losses that occurred during the
transition (Hanson et al, 1990). This transition period can be shortened
significantly with creativity (e.g. substituting crops, enhancing farm
gate sales efforts).

3. Organic crop yields are less variable than industrial yields

Organic crop yields are reportedly less variable than industrial
methods (Hanson et al, 1990). As well, growing season precipitation is
an important factor influencing crop yields and organic crop production
systems appear to perform better than industrial farming systems under
drought conditions (Smolik and Dobbs, 1991). Thus, sustainable crop
production provides a benefit to risk-averse farmers.

Based on the above, it appears that with strong farm management, small
scale, organic crop production can produce competitive and even superior
yields to industrially grown crops. Furthermore, just as research has
resulted in an improvement in yields for industrial crops (e.g. winter
wheat), there is likely to be similar improvement in yields for organic
crops as more research is conducted and organic farming methods
become more commonplace (Lampkin, 1989).
..'
http://www.manyfoldfarm.com/comfoosy...er3.htm#eiii-1 404

( http://tinyurl.com/uvdi )

Apparently you've never done any actual research either.

Chuck


I've not personally compared organic and industrial yield, no,
... the people that prepared the above report 'Adding Values
to Our Food System: An Economic Analysis of Sustainable
Community Food Systems', for the United States Department
of Agriculture Sustainable Agriculture Research & Education
Program, Utah State University, did that "actual research".



  #32   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2004, 04:19 PM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'day pete,

hope things are fairing well in your neck of the woods, like most a
bit of rain wouldn't go astray to say the least.

we look at managing our pests more than trying to erradicate so we are
probably less tempted to go for the big guns, my main driving force is
bad health that i feel was at least contributed to by residues in what
is perported to be fresh fruits and vege's.

so in our garden we accept some quiet visible predation by bugs, as
yet our system is young so the good guys are still to come into
balance, but they are appearing, and we attract very many birds around
our food growing areas they also help. but for us it will be the
chilly spray and coffee spray.

we too are managing our resource using basically a common sense
approach and all is working quiet well in our books.

and for countries that need to import fresh food due to lack of
agricultural land or whatever well! that is a whole other issue, but
maybe community farms may go part the way to bridging the gap a lot of
staple foods can be grown on a 5 acre patch. and people can grow a lot
of the other stuff they want in containers. just some thoughts.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the

environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/


Hiya Len
Good to se you're still around too mate.
My ISP's news server has been having some hiccups and some posts of mine
didn't get posted so I now have a couple of different newservers so if my
posts look like they came from somewhere else they probably did.

We are getting some rain here ..dribs and drabs mostly but big thunderstorm
last night ... so far its looking pretty good for the farmers seeding and we
are hoping to build on last years effort of rejuvenating one of the small
paddocks (if I get me Fergie tractor back together again quickly).

At this time of year the biggest pests are the snails, we don't get many
slugs (unless they are just hiding from me) and its also the time of year
when the Sleepy lizards go to sleep for the winter so they are no help in
controlling the snails, definitely need some ducks.

One of the troubles I have is protecting the young plants from lizards so I
planted some stuff (mainly herbs) in old cut down water tanks which of
course stops lizards from getting to the plants but also stops em from
getting to the pests too.

As far as the flying sap sucking type of bugs go I think the Little Willie
wagtail is the king of bug eating birds and although the African boxthorn
plant is a declared pest here they seem to prefer this shrub for nesting in
on my place, so I have one that will stay just as a home for these little
guys.

A couple of weeks ago the whole place was swarming with flying ants and
other "midgy" type insects then the dragonflies moved in and I was
fascinated just standing in the middle of the paddock watching millions of
em eat their way through the swarms ..it really was like being in another
world ... if you've ever stood in one of those butterfly houses and been
surrounded by that eerie silence as butterflies flutter inches from your
nose you'll know what I mean, they even seem to look directly in your eyes
(no I wasn't drunk :-)).

I don't blame anyone for using synthetic means to control pests, each to
his/her own...but I just couldn't do it.

I love doing things the way I do em ...right or wrong ....and nature never
ceases to amaze me, I don't want to do anything to stop being amazed.

Pete


  #33   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2004, 04:19 PM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

g'day pete,

yeh we still here, just about to give up on the alt.pc news group it
looked almost dead of late, not like those good ole days a few years
back.

the willy is a great bug eater, legend is that he is supposed to be
bad luck in your garden, ah but who cares them and their close cousins
the fly catcher (we have), and babbler, yellow rumped thornbills,
piplets etc.,. etc.,. the bugs have a hard time.

we have that snail the little cigar shaped one gets to around oh i
dunno 1/2" peky little ting if we don't keep on top of them they even
eat the yellow part of the skin on the lemonade fruit. no never been
in a butterfly house but i can well imagine what you mean, we're even
encouraging the owls to come back seems if a care to look outside
after dark there is usualy one flying around or sitting on one of our
poles, so things are looking realy rosy.

we've planted a lot of trees over the last 12 months 300+ so this
place should look a treat in a couple of years when they all reach a
visible height, we have managed to control the blady grass and now
ahve vwery little of it, a wide variety of pasture grasses exotics and
natives ranging from calf height to head height some almost to 2
meters. be good to win lotto ad get some calves on here for fattening
they would love it.

as me signature line says hey pete? "you gotta do what you gotta do"
hey, if you need to use a quick fix then that's it just that it is
done with all eyes open. our food orchids are doing well heaps of
manda's and lemonade fruits this year, the top tropical orchard has
lots of holes to fill losses due to the place being so dry and we
being too impatient. but the trees that are up there are having a
minimising efect on the frosts and we can actualy sit under the shade
of a young tree that we planted something that wasn't there before.

currently we are gathering different varieties of bunching and those
type onions and leeks so we can keep ourselves supplied in some sort
for the table at all times. i'm also cheif garlic grower for ted and
us.

ted's doing well he is starting to see some fruits for his efforts
vege garden wise this is the common scenerio when we take on degraded
land hey.

anyhow you take care i'm ready for a chat anytime all the time.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/
  #34   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2004, 07:07 PM
Sirius631
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

In article , "Pete" writes:


Hi David and thanks for the reply
I agree that you have to make choices depending on what resources are
available, although I was referring more to land management choices rather
than food purchases.

We try to produce as much as we can using what resources we have available
and though we tend to lose lots of "produce" to pests I've (so far) never
thrown in the towel and blasted everything with the really heavy stuff,
(I've used cabbage dust and pyrethrum sprays) ... so my question was really
aimed at folks who like us, get lots of bugs and beasties sharing their home
grown produce and try to control them with an organic solution ... better
land management and companion plantings, use of animals for pest and weed
control, animal manures, mulches and worms for nutrient and soil improvement
etc ...not specifically sprays or powder but using the "bigger" picture to
hopefully balance things out and avoid the use of toxins.

Good to see someone is still reading the NG David ....

*looks North and sees people in Scotland sunbathing !!!*

Pete


When growing our own, there is nothing like a successful organic system. What I
have is nothing like a successful organic system. I either have to improve
rapidly, or continue to accept predation. I don't see any genuine alternative
to organics when it comes down to soil improvement. Good old muck and sweat! I
might be able to talk my neighbours into letting me use some of their
'wasteland' for a chicken coup, so I can get a new input/output interface.

Talk about people in Scotland sunbathing, for a sun worshiper like me there is
a conflict with permaculture - my best secluded sunbathing patch is also my
best growing patch. Suppose I should be happy to save water by not wearing
clothes that I have to then wash

David Lloyd
So open-minded - my brains dribbled out.
  #35   Report Post  
Old 10-06-2004, 10:05 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"len gardener" wrote in message
...
g'day pete,

yeh we still here, just about to give up on the alt.pc news group it
looked almost dead of late, not like those good ole days a few years
back.

the willy is a great bug eater, legend is that he is supposed to be
bad luck in your garden, ah but who cares them and their close cousins
the fly catcher (we have), and babbler, yellow rumped thornbills,
piplets etc.,. etc.,. the bugs have a hard time.

we have that snail the little cigar shaped one gets to around oh i
dunno 1/2" peky little ting if we don't keep on top of them they even
eat the yellow part of the skin on the lemonade fruit. no never been
in a butterfly house but i can well imagine what you mean, we're even
encouraging the owls to come back seems if a care to look outside
after dark there is usualy one flying around or sitting on one of our
poles, so things are looking realy rosy.

we've planted a lot of trees over the last 12 months 300+ so this
place should look a treat in a couple of years when they all reach a
visible height, we have managed to control the blady grass and now
ahve vwery little of it, a wide variety of pasture grasses exotics and
natives ranging from calf height to head height some almost to 2
meters. be good to win lotto ad get some calves on here for fattening
they would love it.

as me signature line says hey pete? "you gotta do what you gotta do"
hey, if you need to use a quick fix then that's it just that it is
done with all eyes open. our food orchids are doing well heaps of
manda's and lemonade fruits this year, the top tropical orchard has
lots of holes to fill losses due to the place being so dry and we
being too impatient. but the trees that are up there are having a
minimising efect on the frosts and we can actualy sit under the shade
of a young tree that we planted something that wasn't there before.

currently we are gathering different varieties of bunching and those
type onions and leeks so we can keep ourselves supplied in some sort
for the table at all times. i'm also cheif garlic grower for ted and
us.

ted's doing well he is starting to see some fruits for his efforts
vege garden wise this is the common scenerio when we take on degraded
land hey.

anyhow you take care i'm ready for a chat anytime all the time.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the

environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/


Hiya Len
Don't give up on the old NG .... we'll stir some of them lurkers outa their
holes
Looks like you've been real busy with the tree planting .. I looked at the
list on your site. that's impressive mate ... did ya have to keep wiping the
sweat from Bev's brow while she planted em ? ... the things we do for them
wimmin eh? ... they just don't know how lucky they are, I even pass
Maureen's welding rods for her sometimes .... wears me out I tell ya.

I've been trying to get old Fergie ready for turning the soil a little, last
year we had a good combination of natural growth and a little barley we
threw around that we are eager to try to see if we can improve on the ground
cover and we are planting some old man salt bush around some low lying,
salty areas to try to lower the water table around those problem areas.

Fergie has had a total strip down, derust and paint job ...which started off
as a water pump replacement... which led to replacing some oil seals and
which in turn led to lots of parts being replaced cos I snapped and bent
things as I removed em because they were sooo rusty ... but she fired up on
the 3rd turn after being sat for 3 months in bits ..not bad for a 51 year
old ex boat tractor.. still some wiring and a bit more painting to do then
she'll be too sexy for her own good.

I remember Mollison saying that if you can turn the top few centimetres and
improve that then go a little deeper each year you can achieve a good deep
structure which will not only allow moisture in but retain it longer, the
area I am working has been fairly well sealed by previous rains to a point
where before last year it wouldn't allow any moisture in and after lightly
turning the top and throwing a bit of seed around we were amazed at the
amount of natural seed that must have been lying dormant waiting for a more
suitable structure and some rain of course.

We had a good storm the other night and got 40 points (10 mm) out of it...
don't larf that's a torrent for us ... so you can see we need to catch and
try to hold all the rain we get... cos we don't get that much.

I hand dug a biggish pond and thought I'd have a few yabbies ... the
Cormorants had other ideas .... I tried fish ... they liked them even more
......... so I have this big hole in the ground ... got any ideas ? (apart
from burying Cormorants.. I thought of that one) I also have a big mound of
earth at the side of the big hole ... looks like it would just fit in there
nicely.

Good to hear Ted is getting his place together as well .... He's on a good
wicket getting you to grow his garlic for him .... What is it about Onions
and garlic ? I love growing them ... Onions take a season and a half out of
the garden patch but I reckon the garden isn't complete without rows of
onions in it .... I just wish Onions liked me as much as I like them
:-(

take care mate

Pete













  #36   Report Post  
Old 10-06-2004, 10:06 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"Sirius631" wrote in message
...
When growing our own, there is nothing like a successful organic system.

What I
have is nothing like a successful organic system. I either have to improve
rapidly, or continue to accept predation. I don't see any genuine

alternative
to organics when it comes down to soil improvement. Good old muck and

sweat! I
might be able to talk my neighbours into letting me use some of their
'wasteland' for a chicken coup, so I can get a new input/output interface.


Don't talk to me about muck and sweat ....... ok ya can this seems the right
place, we have to improve every bit of soil we plant in ... our soil (or
whatever it is) is very salty and has little organic matter ..it is soupy
when wet and rock hard when dry, it gets to a stage where it is almost
impossible to re-wet it ... a lot of Aussie soils have this unwettable
characteristic ... its a weird one.


Talk about people in Scotland sunbathing, for a sun worshiper like me

there is
a conflict with permaculture - my best secluded sunbathing patch is also

my
best growing patch. Suppose I should be happy to save water by not wearing
clothes that I have to then wash


You need to grow broad leaf plants so ya can quickly dash under em if anyone
comes ... Pumpkin leaves are good for that but ya get a bit muddy rolling
under em .....erm or so I'm told.....

should we start calling you Adam ?
Dont eat the apple !!!

Pete


  #37   Report Post  
Old 10-06-2004, 08:04 PM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

g'day pete,

be good if you can stuir them up we used to have good chat before and
lots of it.

yeh trouble is she folds too quickly under the noon day sun gotta keep
using the cattle prod lol. she has been a great supporter and partner
through all this.

sounds like you've got an old classic restored there in fergie, you
must be a pillar of patience. sounds like you are doing great guns
with you soil ted has a salt probem in his soil not like yours i would
think, in his case there is too high a levle of salt content, so
everything he did initialy was a dissapointment to him but he is
starting to win now.

mmm you realy do have a low rainfall area but like you say you do
things to trap and hold as much of the water for as long as possible,
even though we are in a much higher fall area than you the rain that
used to fall was doing very little for anything it just ran straight
off the top, but now that we have gotten it into the sub-surface
things tend to grow more than die and we can sustain a longer dry
period than other before our grasses show it.

maybe you could turn the hole into a health spa? make some un
supportable sorry supportable claim and attract lots of nubile um
ladies you get me drift, i always say to bev if we don't make it with
perma-c here i might turn itn into a nudist colony for ladies um and i
could vet all applicants so to speak huh lol, ok ladies only jokin
only jokin.

right now we are back on the market still fine tuning realtionship
problems but we will be going this time, but i was planning on more
garden beds so i could devote 1 bed to each type of onion thingy and
maybe2 or 3 beds for garlic, as it is nigh on impossible to get local
grown garlic anymore up here that chinese bleached white imported
stuff ahs flooded the market. thsi will dry up reserves of plantable
corms for people like us and make buying this stuff fresh for use is
going to get expensive could be a bit of a money spinner in years to
come.

the best to you and yours

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/
  #38   Report Post  
Old 12-06-2004, 09:05 AM
Sirius631
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

In article , "Pete" writes:

should we start calling you Adam ?


rofl. It's been hot and humid here over the last few days. I find that being
raw, so to speak, stops me feeling grimey, thus helps cut down on the water I'd
use having extra showers.


David Lloyd
So open-minded - my brains dribbled out.
  #39   Report Post  
Old 12-06-2004, 09:05 AM
Sirius631
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

In article , "Pete" writes:

Don't talk to me about muck and sweat ....... ok ya can this seems the right
place, we have to improve every bit of soil we plant in ... our soil (or
whatever it is) is very salty and has little organic matter ..it is soupy
when wet and rock hard when dry, it gets to a stage where it is almost
impossible to re-wet it ... a lot of Aussie soils have this unwettable
characteristic ... its a weird one.


Sounds like raised beds would be the best bet. That is is what I'm using. I
can't keep all the soil moist all the time with my rain water storage and
supply capacity. I do need to expand this, but finances might soon dictate that
I sould have held on to the cash. I can take solice in the fact that sparrows,
which have been suffering a big dip in numbers, will invade in hoards to take a
dust bath when the soil gets to that hydrophobic state.


David Lloyd
So open-minded - my brains dribbled out.
  #40   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2004, 11:03 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"len gardener" wrote in message
...
Snippings

i always say to bev if we don't make it with
perma-c here i might turn itn into a nudist colony


Len meet David ... David meet Len ....

Ok I snipped the "for ladies bit" :-) cos David is looking for somewhere to
sunworship.


right now we are back on the market still fine tuning realtionship
problems but we will be going this time,


So ... as soon as I come back on the group you decide to move house so I
can't find ya eh?
Are you looking for somewhere with land again Len or are you thinking of
becoming a city kid again?


but i was planning on more
garden beds so i could devote 1 bed to each type of onion thingy and
maybe2 or 3 beds for garlic, as it is nigh on impossible to get local
grown garlic anymore up here that chinese bleached white imported
stuff ahs flooded the market. thsi will dry up reserves of plantable
corms for people like us and make buying this stuff fresh for use is
going to get expensive could be a bit of a money spinner in years to
come.


I agree about the garlic though we still get a fair bit of locally grown
stuff in our nearest greengrocers ... I'm hoping to get a reasonably sized
shadehouse finished this year and produce some seedlings and maybe seed for
sale. I saw in a garden/hardware shop recently...a punnett of half a dozen
cabbage plants for $5.00 !!! thats unbelievable, they were the most
unhealthy looking plants too.

Good luck with the sale and move when it happens mate.

Pete




  #41   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2004, 11:03 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"Sirius631" wrote in message
...
Sounds like raised beds would be the best bet. That is is what I'm using.

I
can't keep all the soil moist all the time with my rain water storage and
supply capacity. I do need to expand this, but finances might soon dictate

that
I sould have held on to the cash. I can take solice in the fact that

sparrows,
which have been suffering a big dip in numbers, will invade in hoards to

take a
dust bath when the soil gets to that hydrophobic state.


Yes indeedy raised beds are definately the go ... a few years ago I had some
commercial worm beds which have been turned into garden beds and although
the pure worm castings are not IMO good growing medium when they were
spread into the surrounding area they improved the soil to a stage where it
supports growth all year even through the dryest times ... only grasses a
few trees and a rather unruly raspberry bush at the moment ... but the worms
are still there and have spread also ... so the whole area is slightly
raised (but was already in a higher spot) and the difference in soil
texture, organic material and water holding capacity is nothing short of a
miracle.

I've used old cut down water tanks as big plant pots (5 feet across and
about 2.5 feet deep) for Herbs and things like Mint and self setting plants
like Garlic chives etc ... things that would get out of control or be hard
to contain in a normal garden bed .. again the lack of rain is a prob and
the hot sun on the tin water tanks doesnt help but having a real depth of
workable soil is a real bonus.

I understand the lack of finances ... dont we all? ... ya just have to do
what you can when ya can .. I'll never get this place as I want it even if I
live to be a hundred, but its kinda fun (sometimes) trying.

Dont get too sunburnt

Pete





David Lloyd
So open-minded - my brains dribbled out.



  #42   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2004, 12:02 PM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...

g'day pete,

who's looking for david i was thinking more along the lines o delilah
heh chuckle

yep that's me mate but you will still be able to chat and i hope you
do i very much enjoyed our banta in the earlier days.

it will ahve to be back to the big smoke and i will be lucky if it is
on 30 perches.

boy that is dear for seedling the most we pay is 2.80 or 3 bucks not
sure, garlic could be a good little home garden cash crop for the
organic growers or home growers as in this neck of the woods south
east qld the home grown stuff that will grow is scarcer then the
proverbial hens teeth.

i'm also amassing varieties of perpetual types of onion faimilies
onions now at around 4 bucks a kilo and rising just like gold prices
homegardeners are going to be looking for something perpetual. and
realy for most they could grow these things for all their cullenary
uses in such a little space.

we've had 3 solid bites since i put it on line on wednesday night.

keep the chat coming yo can always revert to e/mail.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/
  #43   Report Post  
Old 07-07-2004, 03:03 AM
jonathan zeidman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:acexc.11087$1L4.5742@okepread02...

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

Do the conventional plots rotate the same as organic plots, are they

in
continues wheat or some other rotation.


Both are first wheats after break. The organic rotations have far more
breaks than the arable ones.

The largest loss in organic
agriculture is the years that the land is in low production rotations
that produce low value or no value crops.


Of course. Some of these are complete losses being, in effect, cover
crops. Red clover is a typical one, with herbiage all ploughed under, in
all-arable organic rotations.


Then for a true picture the total yield in some unit, dollar or pounds
sterling per acre in total yield of wheat, feed, fiber meat and what ever
should be totaled up and divided by the number of years in the study

giving
true value of the output of an organic farming operation per unit area
compared to a conventional or modern farm. Showing how much far they are
really behind modern methods. With total production nearer 25% or less

that
of a modern farm ran in an intensive operation.

Gordon

Hey Gord, don't forget to factor in the carcinogen and neurotoxin
levels/acre. In that your methodology is way ahead. How's your blood,
anyways? The last farmer I worked for couldn't walk 100 yards because his
blood no longer carries oxygen, thanks to the pesticides he worked with his
whole life. The good news for progressive thinkers, and you're not one of
them, is that the old guard is dying off, and their children's thinking will
change or show in the popularity they enjoy. The writing is on the wall, and
the cost of producing and spreading poison is becoming something only the
very most willfully ignorant can ignore.


  #44   Report Post  
Old 07-07-2004, 01:03 PM
Gordon Couger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Organic does not mean pesticide free...


"jonathan zeidman" wrote in message
...

"Gordon Couger" wrote in message
news:acexc.11087$1L4.5742@okepread02...

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Gordon Couger writes

Do the conventional plots rotate the same as organic plots, are they

in
continues wheat or some other rotation.

Both are first wheats after break. The organic rotations have far more
breaks than the arable ones.

The largest loss in organic
agriculture is the years that the land is in low production rotations
that produce low value or no value crops.

Of course. Some of these are complete losses being, in effect, cover
crops. Red clover is a typical one, with herbiage all ploughed under,

in
all-arable organic rotations.


Then for a true picture the total yield in some unit, dollar or pounds
sterling per acre in total yield of wheat, feed, fiber meat and what

ever
should be totaled up and divided by the number of years in the study

giving
true value of the output of an organic farming operation per unit area
compared to a conventional or modern farm. Showing how much far they are
really behind modern methods. With total production nearer 25% or less

that
of a modern farm ran in an intensive operation.

Gordon

Hey Gord, don't forget to factor in the carcinogen and neurotoxin
levels/acre. In that your methodology is way ahead. How's your blood,
anyways? The last farmer I worked for couldn't walk 100 yards because his
blood no longer carries oxygen, thanks to the pesticides he worked with

his
whole life. The good news for progressive thinkers, and you're not one of
them, is that the old guard is dying off, and their children's thinking

will
change or show in the popularity they enjoy. The writing is on the wall,

and
the cost of producing and spreading poison is becoming something only the
very most willfully ignorant can ignore.

Not a thing wrong with my blood. I do have a problem with multiple sclerosis
that came down with when I was 15 before I had any thing to do with farm
chemicals. I saw my spray pilot the other day and at 70 is still working and
is healthy and has a little gray hair. My dad started having problems
walking a year ago he will be 96 in two months. My grand mother lived to 104
and her mother to 96 all with farming and ranching bakgrounds.

I do know a few farmers that injured themselves with insecticides by being
careless. That is why I hired experts to apply mine.

The average age of a farmer is nearly 60 and very very few young men are
coming back to the farm. My second cousin just took over the family ranch
and she is 58. Her dad stayed on until he died at 88.

I would like you to define what you think progressive agriculture is?

Gordon


  #45   Report Post  
Old 23-08-2004, 01:31 AM
lammas
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Gordon Couger Wrote:
"ta" wrote in message
...
rick etter wrote:
And that means also not cruelty-free. Just what I've been saying...

"...some organic pesticides have mammalian toxicities that are far
higher than many synthetic pesticides..."
http://tinyurl.com/6a5y2

Wow, I can't *believe* CFGI, which is funded by the right-wing think
tank
Hudson Institute, could possibly be promoting information that
supports
their big agribusiness clients like Monsanto, ConAgra, and Archer
Daniels
Midland, who have everything to lose by the success of organic
farming.

But to be fair, I can't answer the specific charges as I'm not an
expert,
so
I'm expanding the thread to get a wider range of input.

Does the messenger make the message any less correct? What Alex fails
to
mention are the pest that organic pesticides won't touch. The boll
weevil,
alfalfa aphid and corn root worm to name a few. In the last 100 years
we
have made ever effort to make farming less invasive on the land and
going
back to organic farming would not only reduce yields and increase
erosion
but plunge the world into famine if it was the only way allowed as
many
want.

What everybody seems to be unaware of are plant extracts and
micro-organisms that have been tried and tested, work as well, if not
better, than chemical pesticides, cannot damage beneficial insects and
are harmless to animals, humans, plants and wildlife. Best of all, and
this is a trick that chemicals can't perform, it's impossible for
insect pests to develop resistance to them due to their mode of
action.

To take the three pests mentioned; Neem oil kills boll weevil and it's
been in use 4,000 years, alfalfa aphid is killed by BDB extract and
that goes gack to the mists of time as a traditional Chinese herbal
medicine and corn root worm is resoundingly eradicated by a fungus that
is responsible for green muscadine disease, first discovered in the
1830s in Europe. They are pesticides, Gordon, but not as we know it and
they just happen to be 100% organic. But don't worry, they won't be
appearing on the shelves of your local agricultural merchant to tempt
the weak; because they're completely natural they can't be patented so
no company is going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds getting
them licenced and discovering they can't protect it. W.R. Grace
patented a method of extracting Azadarachtin from Neem oil to allow it
to last longer on the leaf surface but mother nature, for some perverse
reason, decreed that Neem oil works just as well with its main
ingredient removed. Any chemical pesticides spring to mind that can do
that?

As for conventional versus organic yields, Azotobacter will outperform
any amount of chemical fertiliser; it will never scorch plants, no
matter how much you use, it produces it's own organic matter to build
up soil fertility and it can't create nitrate run-off. As far as soil
erosion is concerned, planting through a permanent green manure crop is
helping to reverse years of soil erosion caused by conventional farming
in South America. I can also add Trichoderma; unlike methyl bromide,
you don't need to wear a gas mask, you can plant immediately and it
kills all pathogenic fungi. As a bonus it's also a plant growth
stimulant.

There is a lot of cutting edge bio-technology out there and if the
organic lobby stopped sniping at conventional farmers they might notice
that the world has moved on and it is they who may well be living in the
past.

If you want a glimpse into the future of organic growing, visit
http://www.gardenknowledge.co.uk


--
lammas
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