Hi Len,

That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but
it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker )
Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human
nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the
only solution, it's a good one.
Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word
out there?

Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place,
Yours
Andrea

PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta
)


"len gardener" wrote in message
...
hey permie friends world wide?

lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey?

what do we really want hey?

permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common
man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we
are ever gong to have to call home ok?

SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY?????????

lets get back to grass roots hey?

lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that
other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey.

we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to
pee get the message?

OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK

Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a
seppo)[sorry just how i see it]

ok getting the message hey?

cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all
that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the
heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet
we are likely to have to live on.

so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while
the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever
had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates.

i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK.

so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and
forget the bloody money ok! let that come later.

you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off.

and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your
mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't
understand.

so lets SUCK it and SEE hey.

to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time
coming for the chardeney set ok.

len proudly trying to tip the balance.


--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the
environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before
you send.

thanks andrea,

i was a bit emotional on the day i guess, but yes it was bought on by
the fact that others keep saying there is no just simply promotion of
pc and the ideals, and this is borne out if one does a search. and
then those that wish to bleed it to death never seem to want to offer
much help free. and lurking is what seems to go on an awful lot in pc
forums/groups whatever, one forum has over 300 members and generates
app' i post every 2 days, some posts have had over 400 visits and only
8 or so responses, to me sort of sounds like hey why? even here alt.pc
up to a couple of years agao and for the 3 or so years before that
after i joined (is the only period i can talk about) there was lots of
banta going on new people coming in and the word was being spread but
now to all appearance sakes it is fairly much null and void
(refraining from using dead as may upset the few good people still
here). i don't profess to know anything about anything let alone
everything i just go along and give it my best shot and if something
works then hope to share that with others in their efforts.

we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more
than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very
simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be
seen.

i'll try and get some inspiration going on the suggestion for my web
page, just it's a bit hard to portray even in pics what processes are
going on and how they are working or that they are working at all. we
did have plans of some eco' tourism and then use that as the foot
inthe door to explain what we are doing. but in life things never
quiet go the way we'd like so now must look to other plans.

len

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:47:31 GMT, "Pinky"
wrote:

Hi Len,

That's a very intense and angry (and not completely clear) post there, but
it certainly brought people out, glad to know i'm not the only lurker )
Permaculture is a great thing, and sadly there is always an element of human
nature that likes to cash in on great things, tho I don't think it's the
only solution, it's a good one.
Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective, ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word
out there?

Hope all is well and you're getting some healthy offers on your place,
Yours
Andrea

PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one, ta
)


"len gardener" wrote in message
.. .
hey permie friends world wide?

lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey?

what do we really want hey?

permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common
man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we
are ever gong to have to call home ok?

SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY?????????

lets get back to grass roots hey?

lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that
other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey.

we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to
pee get the message?

OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK

Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a
seppo)[sorry just how i see it]

ok getting the message hey?

cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all
that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the
heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet
we are likely to have to live on.

so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while
the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever
had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates.

i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK.

so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and
forget the bloody money ok! let that come later.

you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off.

and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your
mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't
understand.

so lets SUCK it and SEE hey.

to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time
coming for the chardeney set ok.

len proudly trying to tip the balance.


--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the
environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before
you send.


--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

"Pinky" wrote in message
...
Maybe you need to approach this problem from a permaculture perspective,
ie:
there's not an influx of money grubbing, selling it crap, there's simply a
lack of simple-get-started-now info and use your web site to get the word
out there?

Thats a good way to look at it, if we think about it, those of us who are
using pc techniques daily dont think to take pics and notes to pass on ..we
just get on with it.

I personally think there is room for the teachers and if there's a market
for a weekend crash course into pc then why wouldnt people who are able to
teach it offer that service ?

I understand what Len meant though, it could be very daunting for newcommers
if they think that to be able to use permaculture means you have to be
taught by someone who has a diploma in pc design, and if you search for pc
on the net thats what comes across.

We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want simple
and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc without
it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if
not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len
was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you
permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you
how to plant cabbages.

Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats
what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting
cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange.


PS. If those are tim-tams you're passing out there Pete, I'll have one,
ta
)

tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good
from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-)

Just keep Len away from the red cordial

exactly pete,

i too did a 2 day intro course which is more than enough to start
people into working towards pc ideals. but with the other side that
chagrges huge bucks everyone who goes that way thinks there is a magic
bottomless cash cow pit that they too have the right to tap into, just
isn't so.

yes this group was a live online community, i rmemeber when i first
came wet behind the ears it had the feeling of belonging about it, and
we ahd some good banta we don't always all agree but hey we are
individuals but we don't carry it to the point of the detriment of the
group. and yes back then new folks could jump in and where made so
welcome but now nothing well almost.

in the early days i used to think how great could it be if we could
all amass together just to meet each other and break down the unknown
barriers, i have been fortunate to meet a number of pc'ers face to
face it just puts a whole new concept to the name you chat with
online. we met ted and sheena this way and no we don't agree on
everything but we are good friends and although they live app' 1 hour
away we help each other, i get to grow all the garlic while ted gets
on top of his slight salt problems and gets his system working and
every season the changes can be seen.

now back to that red ah-um cordial of course. tim tams put too mauch
weight on hey pete??

enjoy take care

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

"len gardener" wrote in message

but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research
all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it
to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells
money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do

(snip)
and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get
lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple
pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course.


Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment,
just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google
search?

If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every
page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages
will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian
restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet services
that use vegetables, etc, etc etc.

People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing, won't
necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick up
the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page you
are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see.
The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info out
there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they
will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that
uses the keyword of "permaculture".

You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc
practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been
that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way
back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow and
asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the
time he was there. To get interested people they advertised it locally (at
their own cost) and didn't ask a penny from anyone. In their course
information they told people that they should bring basic camping stuff and
the course attendees could have free use of camping space and showers.
Many free loaders arrived who were either broke or disorganised without
event he basics that my friends ended up providing meals and all sorts of
other things to the participants. By the end of the long weekend course
they were so appalled at the participants that they have stayed clear of
pcers ever since. Mollison did give them some sort of Permaculture Award
for their efforts before and during the course. I've seen it but I don't
remember what it is actually called.

Anyway, my friends are unbelievably generous people and the situation must
have been appalling for them to have got the hump. I do know that there was
one PC person who went to their workshop and who now "instructs" and
advertises widely. He sounds like a right nut case and a very nasty piece
of work into the bargain - he's violent. He can't control his temper and
then turns violent - he should be locked away as should anyone who does
that.

Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably
all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the computer.

Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it and
as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly ever
having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to stick
around here than those other forums.

"Pete" wrote in message
...

The whale would have to be pretty big these days cos the good life is erm
catchin up with me ...if ya know what I mean...


Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead
for quids.

"len gardener" wrote in message

we had hoped to simply be able to show people how without much more
than perusing a book that realy pc is from the heart, and so very
simple and the results although not as visibly obvious are there to be
seen.

It is sometims a bit hard to explain to people who aren't in the know about
the simple joys of being outside rooting around in the dirt.

Years ago before we moved out here from the village, I was helping a woman
friend of mine unload a trailer load of compost she'd brought to her home
from 50 kms away. She got the compost at her mother's place because her
mother was going into an old folks home and my friend wasn't going to leave
this lovely stuff for the tenants.

As we were unloading this rich friable yummy chocolate brown stuff into her
cement clay like courtyard we often came across worms which we'd gently pick
up and put aside into a bucket which we'd filled with some compost which
we'd set aside for just this purpose - didn't want to harm any of the worms
did we?

Anyway at some stage she got the giggles as I yelled at her yet again to
stop shovelling 'cos I needed to rescue another worm. When I asked her what
the matter was she replied: "No-one where we work would EVER understand 2
highly paid women looking like a couple of derros shovelling dirt and
rescuing worms".

She was right of course. I'll remember her comment till I eventually get
Alzheimers. It's all about what one values and some people will spend more
on hiring videos in a week that they would on buying fresh fruit. Me, I
like worms and animal poo and my chooks and my poor dry garden.

"Pete" wrote in message

We (this newsgroup) should be here as a resource for people who want
simple
and down to earth banter/advice/brain storming/idea echange about pc
without
it costing them anything, if they want to pursue a course then fine ... if
not then fine.... but its important to get the message across I think Len
was trying to make ... that you don't need to pay someone to teach you
permaculture techniques anymore than you need to pay someone to teach you
how to plant cabbages.

That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from?

You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc
hewed this fat before. :-))

Of course there was "fluff" on this NG .... it was a community and thats
what made it so ....IMO thats why new folks jumped in and started posting
cos it felt like a community not just an information exchange.

You mean just like we are doing now? :-P

tim-tam for you .....and seeing as the female/male ratio looks pretty good
from where I'm sitting .......I also think a group hug would be nice. :-)

Pete you really do need to play harder to get!

Just keep Len away from the red cordial

LOL

g'day fran,

there was a post or 2 here quiet some time ago if i recal i then
raised the issue of pc 4 sale only to those who can afford it.

i am currently in or lurking if you wish in 5 pc forums this one and 4
other forums. this one was by far the best some time back but has all
but faded away but for a few cross posts and smutt material.

i am also inviolved in quiet a number of gardening and related news
groups and forums even exclusively aussie forums, the difference
between the 2 that is pc and the others is that on all the others
there are gardeners and related chatting about what they are doing,
asking about help for porblems and otehrs providing help or assistance
where possible, people are not only excahnging ideas and pics online
but they are exchanging seeds and plant material where they can.

i myself have recieved all sorts of material from others and from you
as well and to all i am very grateful, i have been able to
reciprocagte buy sending stuff to others so the circle goes around,
but those gardening forums are vibrant and alive with chat, and they
are all at grass roots level no one is flogging lessons in growing
things or how to organic garden or even how to fix a mower it all
comes gratis to all and sundry.

i can emphasize with your pc friends and feel for their honest efforts
but unfortunately the world is full of those that would take
advantage, it's like some who take advantage of whooffers they think
these people travelling around are little more than slaves. back to
the serf's and lord's days.

in all those other forums there are dozens upon dozens probably
hundreds of posts daily, but perma-c would be lucky to generate up to
4 a day on any given day this topic excluded. and for the maion the
most topiced product in those permy posts is you guessed it yet
another fresh from someone's institute certified with diploma who now
wants the right to earn their money back. i have tried to have chat on
those forums about all sorts of things but usually if just fades away.

anyhow fran it is not a personal attack on you or any of the handful
of regulars still er um lurking.

yes i can ingnore the yuppies but those out there that we want to come
onto pc aren't and they aren't coming into pc, we realy need to get it
promoted very strongly at grass roots level, or i for one can't see it
going far.

the reason i frequent those other forums is that i am looking for
chat, knowledge and the sharing of it not knowledge from a carriculum
but knowledge from applying it and succeeding. i can only invite
people to come to pc i ca't make them come.

take care

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

hey pete,

at least it's only catching up with you i'm so slow nowadays it's gone
right by me lol

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

a couple of deros' and loving it hey fran?

way to go would love to ahve bee there getting me hand dirty with you.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

that's the sad point fran,

pc is losing relevence and from all the feed back i get from others
they see it as something expensive before they can even think about
what it is all about.

we need that new um "meat" all avenues of common interest needs it all
otehr gardening related forums i am involved in have new converts
almost daily, things have gone terribly wrong and it can't farely be
blamed on this forum, the results of search engines is a good point to
start with.

forget which post you mentioned in about web pages and their costs and
how they are set up. but my homepage (as distinct from a web page
there seems to be a difference or perception that there is) doesn't
cost money but i am only allocagted so much space in this caes 5 meg
by my isp, also homepages like mine lose lots of contacts when we
change isp's for one reason or another, so literally we have to start
all over again when we make those changes.

us simple folk can't afford domain name nor can we afford web masters
to set our pages up and make sure we get all the top search positions
but the money chasers can it si after all a legitimate tax deduction
for them, and they flood the market so to speak. when people do
searches they rarely peruse past the first 20 hits (there could be
over a hundred hits to select from)so if those positions are flooded
then us little people don't even get noticed.

before i left brissy i was contacted by a lady seeking help with pc
she ahd consulted with a certified pc designer, who spoke way over
this ladies head and after collecting her fee the convert had little
or nothing to go on, she found me somehow and for free i went to her
place abotu a 2 hour round trip and discussed things as i saw it (she
ahd seen my layout) then i took her to her local demolition yard to
show her different material she could use for garden edges, she's
still pc gardening. and i think that near most of us here would do the
same thing. if she hadn't stumbled across me then would she still be
interested in pc today? i dunno my crystal ball is broken.

i think that 1 of the glasses of red cordail may have been bad the
other day mmm wot u reckon?

enjoy & take care

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

Howdy again, I'm chiming in all over the place *sigh*

"Fran" wrote in message
...
"len gardener" wrote in message

but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research
all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it
to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells
money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do

(snip)
and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get
lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple
pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course.


Well that is true to some extent, but if you think about it for a moment,
just how many home veggie gardening pages do you find when you do a google
search?

If I just do a hunt using the word "vegetables" I'm going to get up every
page with veggies on it whether I want it or not AND most of those pages
will be about commercial ventures:- vegetable wholesalers, vegetarian
restaurants, health practitioners extolling the value of their diet
services
that use vegetables, etc, etc etc.

People like you, who put up a homepage that includes veggies growing,
won't
necessarily know how to put in the info needed for search engines to pick
up
the site. Also, since you also probably have to pay for your home page
you
are less likely to put in much info that the rest of us would like to see.
The commercial world will always be to the forefront in putting the info
out
there because they will pay for professionals to make their page and they
will pay to do it well and for it to come up in each and every search that
uses the keyword of "permaculture".

Too true, web advertising is budgeted for in businesses now days, it's hard
to compete with that if you're an 'owner/builder' web page, but keep
plugging away there (lol, i also think if you put 'vegetables' into a search
engine you'd probably get a load of strange and probably unhygenic sounding
porn judging by the crap that's been flooding this group lately p)

You may object to the making money approach and think that all pc
practisioners should all do it for free and gratis but it has never been
that way from what I can tell. Friends of mine ran a pc course way, way
back in the very early days. They had met Mollison or knew him somehow
and
asked him to come and run a session. He agreed if he was put up for the
time he was there.
snip, but that must have been incredibly disheartening

Mollison hasn't done too badly off permaculture either, which is reasonable
since he & David Holmgren coined the phrase, then, iirc, copyrighted it, so
making a bob off the idea has always been there, but it is a bit of a pain
in the butt if you're given the impression that the only way to get into it
is to shell out a large amount of dosh to 'learn' it... I'm with you there
Len


Anyway I suspect that the grassroots bodies who are doing pc are probably
all busily out there doing it and not spending as much time on the
computer.

Just ignore the pc yuppies. You don't have to buy their way of doing it
and
as I said earlier I don't ever recall anyone who posted here regularly
ever
having had a cert or an interest in making money out of pc. Better to
stick
around here than those other forums.

Excellent advice Fran D And everyone who used to post here was busily
doing their own thing and learning as we went and sharing their experiences,
it'd be great to get that back, but i suppose monitoring the group,
responding to q's etc (which I know you guys do) and being welcoming to any
new people is probably the best way to get the ng back from the spammers and
breathe some life back into it...
just to save replying further down: I loved your story about the compost
and the worms, Fran - only people with gardeners hearts (and maybe
fisherperson hearts) would think to save the worms, it did make me laugh,
I'd be doing the same thing I think, and as to being 'old meat', I
resemble... er... resent that remark, lmao

Have a good weekend all,
Andrea

"Fran" wrote in message
...
Now that sounds like one very contented fisher person who wouldn't be dead
for quids.

Contented yessss very .... and fat

I now know why I got married .............. its the food preparation

"Fran" wrote in message
...

That sounds like a good idea, but where do we get the fresh meat from?

You, me, Len, Tara, Andrea and Janet are all quite old meat and we've allc
hewed this fat before. :-))

Mmmm meat ....
mmmm fat..... oops

Problem iniit ?
Mark used to say it best when he said "we can't JUST talk about pc
continually without the fluff" or something similar ... because unless new
folks are coming into the group we would just grind to a halt saying the
same things to each other over and over.


Pete you really do need to play harder to get!


Ok .... only female permaculturists can hug me ........is that better ?