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Old 05-07-2004, 09:02 AM
len gardener
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

hey permie friends world wide?

lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey?

what do we really want hey?

permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common
man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we
are ever gong to have to call home ok?

SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY?????????

lets get back to grass roots hey?

lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that
other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey.

we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to
pee get the message?

OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK

Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a
seppo)[sorry just how i see it]

ok getting the message hey?

cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all
that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the
heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet
we are likely to have to live on.

so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while
the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever
had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates.

i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK.

so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and
forget the bloody money ok! let that come later.

you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off.

and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your
mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't
understand.

so lets SUCK it and SEE hey.

to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time
coming for the chardeney set ok.

len proudly trying to tip the balance.


--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.

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Old 05-07-2004, 10:03 PM
Janet Baraclough..
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

The message
from len gardener contains these words:


ok getting the message hey?


No, I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about.

you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off.


Speak for yourself. I haven't seen anything to complain about, or
anybody else complaining. You certainly don't represent me.

Altpc doesn't need another Lawrence laying down crazed foul-mouthed
smutty edicts about who can post here.

Janet
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Old 05-07-2004, 10:03 PM
len gardener
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

i'm not laying anything down janet and i'm no whomever, and this
response is about your standard. and the only thing i am addicted to
is passing on this planet to the next generations in as good a
condition as it can be.

get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is
killing the goose so to say.

sometimes we need to get outside the square.

this forum is a good example of the demise.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:03 AM
Janet Baraclough..
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

The message
from len gardener contains these words:

i'm not laying anything down janet


Telling people who post here to **** off and **** off isn't "laying it
down"?

and i'm no whomever, and this
response is about your standard.


What does that mean?

get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is
killing the goose so to say.


Aren't you also trying to make money by selling something on this group?

this forum is a good example of the demise.


Rubbish. The demise of this forum had nothing whatever to do with the
commercial side of permaculture. It happened because one idiot attempted
to dictate the agenda of a newsgroup and drive out anyone who had
different views from his; just as you're doing now.

Janet
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:03 AM
Fran
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

"len gardener" wrote in message

get eyes wide open all this selling pc and making money from it is
killing the goose so to say.


Len I'd have to say that your post came like a bolt from the blue. I can
understand why you object to the "get certified, make money from pc"
approach but then I have seen nothing like that here for ages.

In fact all I have seen here for ages is smut from slimy porn posters -
absolutely nothing to do with pc at at all. And as far as pc stuff goes
here well it is more a matter of keeping things hanging there so that they
can survive this bloody drought. I'm sick to death of hauling our shoer
water to keep my plants alive.

this forum is a good example of the demise.


Well in tha case you might like to help by suggesting a few drought
strategies and see if we can get this ng back from the smutters and
pornsters.........hmmmmm?




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Old 06-07-2004, 04:03 AM
len gardener
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

g'day fran,

i didn't post this as a personal thing, i am involved in a few permy
forums etc.,. and this news group up to a couple or so years ago was a
vibrant forum of people sharing ideas and discussing what they were
doing and how.

that all stopped and in my opinion which i am voicing ok sorry it came
out a bit strong, but there is an undercurrent of these diploma
yuppies out there and all they see pc as is a way to a healthy bank
account or some sort of notoriety. this group which was attracting new
players which is needed to keep the flow going has slowly but surely
ground to a halt, and the way i see largely due to this premise that
unless you have a diploma and set up and institute you just aren't
doing permaculture (this was not necessarily caused by posters in this
group but surely it has been by other forums).

yes i know that some sort of bad politics played it's part here as
well and from where i see it not all that can be pointed one way there
was lots of bad karma going on between what appeared to be factions.

permaculture is people interested in the betterment of the planet,
what their personal perferences or biases are do not count.

now for those who do not believe in freedom of speech i stick to my
opinion, so if the shoe fits you wear it, i'm afraid to me it looks
like there are those that cannot handle the resposibilty that comes
with the anonimity that the 'net guarantees. i have never been this
vocal before but i hold the right to say it as i see it as everyone
has that right.

i feel for all our friends and otehrs who are sharing this drought,
yes we ahve been lucky this last summer and gotten some good falls and
some good falls alst year as well, and a lot of the practises we have
incorporated here have maximised those falls of rain.

we bought and lost lots of trees in the early stages there was just no
way know we coyuld keep the water up to them, that has now truned
around, but it was very distressing especially when not only water was
short but so was money, not counting the tiem & effort involved.

we too keep our plants going with our grey water and our night water,
our main supply is tanks one is already shut down so we are on the
last 2, we are hoping and praying for rain for one and all in the
coming summer.

the otehr down side that is disheartening is ok (no accolades sort)
but in the time we have planted 500 trees just around us our estimate
is that anywhere up to or mere than 1000+ trees have been pushed over
or felled for the mill or the chippers, so when our mr jack thompson
illustrious actor and tree ambassador says we are a bit behind the 8
ball boy have i got a message for, he mentions 8 million trees planted
but no mention that maybe there is around 10 times that amount
destroyed in the same period of time.

if we don't start getting some common sense land management going in
this country alone and pc was maybe still is if we can get it back to
grass roots, the best way to instil that need in people, for if we
don't in simple terms i can't see our rain situation returning to
normal.

take care

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.
  #7   Report Post  
Old 06-07-2004, 04:03 AM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

that's our janet,

tucked inside your comfort zone, not daring to come outside the square
and taking cheep shots from behind the protective anonimity curtain
that the 'net provides all of us.

i don't recall using yours or anyones name in my post or should i say
open letter, but you seem to revel in turning things into a personal
afront.

i will say 'if the shoe fits then you wear it'.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.
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Old 06-07-2004, 06:02 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

Anyone wanna biscuit ?

Ya can have a coffee too ...everyone except Len ... I'm putting you on a
caffeine
free diet mate :-)



"len gardener" wrote in message
...
hey permie friends world wide?

lets cut the crap hey or should i say cut to the chase hey?

what do we really want hey?

permacultuer is about the best tool we have to encourage the common
man(women) to think serious;y about how we treat this only planet we
are ever gong to have to call home ok?

SO LETS CUT THE CRAP HEY?????????

lets get back to grass roots hey?

lets keep race. creed colour, voting style, politics and all that
other stuff people want and have the right to believe in hey.

we others don't need to know whether you stand up to pee or squat to
pee get the message?

OK FOLKS LETS KEEP it to K.I.S.S ................OK

Keep It Simple Stoopid!!!!!! (substitute silly if you are a
seppo)[sorry just how i see it]

ok getting the message hey?

cut the crap hey get diplomas, courses, people making money and all
that other SHIT out of something that is so simple and so close to the
heart of those that SIMPLY want to preserve this one and only planet
we are likely to have to live on.

so my message to you FOOLS that want to turn as dollar get out while
the getting IS good you are killing the best thing us common folk ever
had. ok that means you pv in nsw and all your mates.

i'm sure this is not what bill and his co-horts had in mind OK.

so in short **** OFF unless your really want to save this planet and
forget the bloody money ok! let that come later.

you are really shitting me and lots of others like me off.

and to you yuppies who f-u-c-k things up post this one around to your
mates hey, please provide pictures as they just simply won't
understand.

so lets SUCK it and SEE hey.

to all you genuine people i apologise but this has been a long time
coming for the chardeney set ok.

len proudly trying to tip the balance.


--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the

environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before

you send.


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Old 06-07-2004, 09:02 AM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

thanks pete,

yeh maybe i am drinking a little too much of it nowadays caffeine that
is.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.
  #10   Report Post  
Old 06-07-2004, 08:02 PM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

The message
from len gardener contains these words:

now for those who do not believe in freedom of speech i stick to my
opinion,


Straw man.

so if the shoe fits you wear it, i'm afraid to me it looks
like there are those that cannot handle the resposibilty that comes
with the anonimity that the 'net guarantees.


i have never been this
vocal before but i hold the right to say it as i see it as everyone
has that right.


Really? Don't forget that "everyone" includes me, those you disrespect
in your post, and people who value permaculture courses, diplomas, and
earning a living from teaching. Telling them to **** off and shut up,
shows you're a blinkered hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about other
peoples' freedom to express their opinion. Your appalling lie that I
post anonymously to avoid responsibility for what I say, is just
pitiful. A year back you emailed me to arrange for your friend's wife to
visit me on her trip to Scotland; and you have spoken to her since she
did. You know perfectly well that this my real name, and exactly where I
live.

Janet




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Old 06-07-2004, 08:02 PM
Janet Baraclough..
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

The message
from len gardener contains these words:

that's our janet,


tucked inside your comfort zone, not daring to come outside the square
and taking cheep shots from behind the protective anonimity curtain
that the 'net provides all of us.


Liar. There's nothing anonymous or behind the curtain about my posts
and never has been.

You're the one sounding off behind the protective curtain of altpc,
aiming your bile at OTHER FORUMS safe in the knowledge that they won't
see it here.

i don't recall using yours or anyones name in my post or should i say
open letter, but you seem to revel in turning things into a personal
afront.


When you said " **** OFF ...(..)you are really shitting me and lots of
others like me off", you intended the targets of your views to believe
that other users of this group share that opinion. Other users of altpc
includes me. For you to behave like that while pretending to represent
other people, is dishonest, and an affront to all of us.

Freedom of speech applies equally to all, Len. That includes me and
anyone else who disagrees with you, and people who want to discuss
aspects of permaculture that don't appeal to you. Freedom of speech does
not mean a license to abuse people and it does not mean that you can
dictate who posts in this group.

Janet.


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Old 07-07-2004, 07:02 AM
Fran
 
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Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

"Pete" wrote in message

Now that couldn't be Wibbers the fisher person could it?

If it is, then the rumours that you were swallowed by a whale must have been
exaggerated.



  #13   Report Post  
Old 07-07-2004, 08:02 AM
Fran
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

"len gardener" wrote in message
g'day fran,

i didn't post this as a personal thing, i am involved in a few permy
forums etc.,. and this news group up to a couple or so years ago was a
vibrant forum of people sharing ideas and discussing what they were
doing and how.


Yes it was

that all stopped and in my opinion which i am voicing ok sorry it came
out a bit strong, but there is an undercurrent of these diploma
yuppies out there and all they see pc as is a way to a healthy bank
account or some sort of notoriety. this group which was attracting new
players which is needed to keep the flow going has slowly but surely
ground to a halt, and the way i see largely due to this premise that
unless you have a diploma and set up and institute you just aren't
doing permaculture (this was not necessarily caused by posters in this
group but surely it has been by other forums).


Len, the group here has ground to a halt BUT none of the regular posters
here ever had a permie cert, or ever (from what I remember) sought to make
money from pc.

I don't know what is going on in other forums and what is happening there
may be the reason why you are cross now and posted such a heavy comment.
There has been no pc activity here in this newsgroup from the regulars for
so long now that you couldn't possibly still be cross about anything that
happened in the dim past.

I still can't understand why we all got a blast from you in this newsgroup.
Obviously there are a few of us old regulars who are still hanging around
here and checking in here regularly. It would seem that Pete, Tara, Janet
and myself are all lurking. Because we are all still checking this ng
regularly that should tell you that we are still interested in both pc and
this newsgroup. We (Janet, Pete, Tara and myself) didn't do or say anything
nasty to you but suddenly you have given us a serve whether we deserved it
or not. Janet got cross with you in response to your post. She hadn't
posted here for so long that nothing she previously posted could have caused
you to post what you did.

Has something happened that upset you in another forum? Or are you just
shitty with life generally?

I don't think we deserved your post. We were all lurking here very very
quietly. We weren't posting so how could you be cross with a bunch of
lurkers?

Why don't you have that cup of coffee that Pete won't give you and have a
biscuit and then post and tell us all why you are really shitty. No-one
here has ever claimed to be interested in money or certificates or looked
down on anyone for being interested in pc. We have had a go at people who
have lied but then I don't recall ever thinking that you had ever lied.

yes i know that some sort of bad politics played it's part here as
well and from where i see it not all that can be pointed one way there
was lots of bad karma going on between what appeared to be factions.


Yes Len but that is ancient history. What is up now?

if we don't start getting some common sense land management going in
this country alone and pc was maybe still is if we can get it back to
grass roots, the best way to instil that need in people, for if we
don't in simple terms i can't see our rain situation returning to
normal.


Now ain't that the truth!


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Old 07-07-2004, 09:02 AM
len gardener
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

g'day fran,

it wasn't directed an any particular person in the group, there are so
few of us who lurk here now anyway.

but when you get involved around the 'net and try to do any research
all you get is certificates, diplomas, institutes and the call for it
to be a uni degree and a senior school curriculum. and it all spells
money and they are not promoting pc as something everyone can do to
some degree you along with pete and others i hope we can count
ourselves in as well are out there doing it and untill all that
factional garbage this group was full of help and ideas going back and
forth but now that the only thrust is from those chardinay yuppies
looking for an easy buck.

but please fran i think you and pete and others would know that i did
not aim this personaly, just as others have said and what the feed
back i get from the common man pc is rapidly turning into a here today
gone tomorrrow yuppie fad.

i love sharing ideas and experiences and as you would know am not
known for getting into personal afronts like some others live for.

i'm with fukuoka he says plant the trees/plants and the rain will
come, i believe that is our only hope to reversing what is occuring
trouble is it won't happen over night it took us 200 hundred years to
get to this stage so guess it is going to take us some of that time to
get some of the way back.

so if this form of pc that is gets out of the reach of the common man
the grass roots people then it will lose it's relevence and change
will never come or when people realise that they can't afford to buy
food then it will be too late. like i said we alone have planted 500
trees in this area on our block but it is a mere spit in the bucket to
what is ripped out of the place.

people are of the opinion if they own it then they can do what they
like with it. i think if we don't get more responsible and say ok we
are the custodians of these resources then the situation cannot
change.

so if we get a benefit from selling and our land is more attractive
due to pc principlas well so be it that to us shows others that pc is
tangible and beneficial, just imagine if everyone who bought land like
tis could see those benefits and turn them into a benefit for them
thibngs would start to change, but that is not about to happen anytime
soon.

and for discenteres just do a search under pc and see what you get
lots and lots of certificates and diplomas, none of here is how simple
pc can be so get started today. pc is a mind set not a design course.

take care

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

my e/mail addies have spam filters you should know what to delete before you send.
  #15   Report Post  
Old 07-07-2004, 10:03 AM
Pete
 
Posts: n/a
Default open letter to all perma-culturists who realy care - back 2 grass roots

"Fran" wrote in message
...
"Pete" wrote in message

Now that couldn't be Wibbers the fisher person could it?


I think it's me ....

Yes it is I just checked wiv the wife

If it is, then the rumours that you were swallowed by a whale must have

been
exaggerated.


The whale would have to be pretty big these days cos the good life is erm
catchin up with me ...if ya know what I mean...





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