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Old 13-05-2006, 08:05 AM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

There must be a lower limit as to the size of a seed, for which it is
impossible to grow a plant therefrom. A strawberry seed is very small
but probably not the smallest in existence.

Elm seeds are small in relation to becoming a woody plant of a tree.
Can you have a tree come from a seed that is as small as a strawberry
seed?

Can you have a seed as small as a "big virus" or "small bacteria"?

So what I am fathoming into, is the question of the limitations of size
of plant seed in order for the entity to grow into a plant.

Somewhere in size, say in millimeters or smaller comes a lower limit
for which the seed cannot organize itself into a plant. What is this
lower limit? And the physics comes into the picture as to the
photosynthesis takes over as the energy source. So is there a Lower
Limit in size in which photosynthesis cannot take over the duties of
growing the plant.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies


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Old 13-05-2006, 08:35 AM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
[email protected]
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

Charles wrote:
Read about orchid seeds. Too small to have any stored food, need a
fungus to feed them but they gave the genetic material necessary.

A.P. replies:
So in a sense, an orchid seed has become a viral particle that uses
fungus to regenerate itself.

Can we define a virus as a seed?

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Old 13-05-2006, 09:22 AM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
Kye
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

No. orchid seeds are not at all similar to viral particles.

Seeds of Orchidaceae use a mutually benificial, symbiotic relationship to
germinate as they dont carry their own food supplies and use the sugars
released by the actions of particular fungi to grow.

A virus uses the cells of an organism to duplicate its own DNA... there is
quite a marked difference.

Kye.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Charles wrote:
Read about orchid seeds. Too small to have any stored food, need a
fungus to feed them but they gave the genetic material necessary.

A.P. replies:
So in a sense, an orchid seed has become a viral particle that uses
fungus to regenerate itself.

Can we define a virus as a seed?



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Old 13-05-2006, 12:32 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
[email protected]
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

Since DNA self-replicates, it can be considered its own seed, and its
size is "itty-bitty".

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Old 13-05-2006, 08:16 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

Kye wrote:
No. orchid seeds are not at all similar to viral particles.

Seeds of Orchidaceae use a mutually benificial, symbiotic relationship
to
germinate as they dont carry their own food supplies and use the sugars
released by the actions of particular fungi to grow.

A virus uses the cells of an organism to duplicate its own DNA... there
is
quite a marked difference.

A.P. replies:

Well I want the thermodynamics or energy relationships of the smallest
size possible plant seed. Can you have a plant grow from pure DNA, or
does it need a minimum stored energy to get it to the point where the
Sunlight takes over the job.

Apparently, between the size of an Orchid seed and a strawberry seed
lies the answer to this question of Energy equation.

The Minimum Amount of Stored Energy surrounding the DNA to create a
plant seed. That is the question.

What exactly is the millimeter size of a strawberry seed?

What exactly is the millimeter size of a orchid seed?

As we get smaller size than that of a strawberry seed we eventually
come to a size for which the physics does not allow for the seed to
develop into a plant. So that is the question. What is the minimum
Stored Energy surrounding a DNA for which the plant can grow to
maturity. This is a physical limit that needs to be well understood.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

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Old 14-05-2006, 04:35 AM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
Alan Meyer
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?


wrote in message
oups.com...
...
Well I want the thermodynamics or energy relationships of the smallest
size possible plant seed. Can you have a plant grow from pure DNA, or
does it need a minimum stored energy to get it to the point where the
Sunlight takes over the job.
...


I'm not an expert on this but allow me to offer a speculative answer
to your question.

First, for simplicity, let's leave asided the orchid or any other
plant that gets part of its nutrients from a symbiotic relationship
with some other organism, and only consider seeds that can
grow on their own without help.

If we measure the weight of the seedling at its largest size
before photosynthesis begins, we should be measuring the
amount of material that was already in the seed, plus any water
or minerals absorbed from the ground.

I presume that there is not an exact cutoff point where growth
is fed by photosynthesis rather than stored energy. No doubt
there is a period of overlap. So we can't get an exact point
for this, but we can get an approximate, average point.

I also presume that the amount of water absorbed varies from
plant to plant, with some plants coming from seeds that are
relatively wet inside and others being quite dry and absorbing
most of their water from the environment.

But setting these complications aside, my speculation would
be that we come up with a figure that is many orders of
magnitude greater than the size of a bacterium, and in fact,
several orders of magnitude greater than the typical size of a
eucaryotic cell.

Alan


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Old 14-05-2006, 10:44 AM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
a_plutonium
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce aplant; what is it?



Alan Meyer wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

...
Well I want the thermodynamics or energy relationships of the smallest
size possible plant seed. Can you have a plant grow from pure DNA, or
does it need a minimum stored energy to get it to the point where the
Sunlight takes over the job.
...



I'm not an expert on this but allow me to offer a speculative answer
to your question.

First, for simplicity, let's leave asided the orchid or any other
plant that gets part of its nutrients from a symbiotic relationship
with some other organism, and only consider seeds that can
grow on their own without help.

If we measure the weight of the seedling at its largest size
before photosynthesis begins, we should be measuring the
amount of material that was already in the seed, plus any water
or minerals absorbed from the ground.

I presume that there is not an exact cutoff point where growth
is fed by photosynthesis rather than stored energy. No doubt
there is a period of overlap. So we can't get an exact point
for this, but we can get an approximate, average point.

I also presume that the amount of water absorbed varies from
plant to plant, with some plants coming from seeds that are
relatively wet inside and others being quite dry and absorbing
most of their water from the environment.

But setting these complications aside, my speculation would
be that we come up with a figure that is many orders of
magnitude greater than the size of a bacterium, and in fact,
several orders of magnitude greater than the typical size of a
eucaryotic cell.

Alan



Yes I this is a good starting point to measure the weight of the seed
before we start and to weigh the seedling before photosynthesis begins.

I wonder if any experimenter has performed that task already.

I am especially interested in this topic for the Fusion Barrier
Principle where 2/3 breakeven is the upper limit. So I wonder if this
2/3 number appears in the Energy equation of a seed.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

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Old 14-05-2006, 07:21 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,sci.physics
boson boss
 
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Default The lower limit of seed size to organize energy and produce a plant; what is it?

First of, I remember various faiths teaching about faith as a seed that
grows. So, its a question that stalked people, maybe since forever. For
all we know, the starting seed of alien life form could be as small as
the last seen small thing that exibited properties of life. It would
have enough energy to alter the smallest portion of enviroment around
it. Yet again, from there it would be one cool green thing to watch.
DNA is a low calory food. It mostly contains information, and a
necessary paradox because your question still makes sense entirely.



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