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Old 30-01-2008, 01:46 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight globalwarming?

I am a lay man - neither botanist, nor a global warming specialist.
I understand that
1. Global warming is caused by Carbon dioxide in atmosphere
2. Plants fix Carbon dioxide - and more plants, less global warming
3. Plants can grow more (and more plants can grow) if soil has
Nitrogen
4. Some plants can have symbiotic relations with Nitrogen fixing
bacteria
5. But grass family does not have such relationship
6. Grass family is botanically most successful colonizer of land
7. Using genetic engineering we can modify organism behaviors
8. Bacteria are easier/cheaper to experiment than plants

Now, if we can alter behavior of some type of the Nitrogen fixing
bacteria and make them symbiotic with grass (wheat, rice, corn,
millet, sorghum, sugarcane, bamboo)
1. A lot of Nitrogen gets fixed into soil
2. Soil becomes very plant friendly
3. That should kick up plant growth
4. That should kick up Carbon dioxide fixation
5. That should bring down global warming

Environment impact could be less than altering plant behavior to
become symbiotic with bacteria.

At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in fertilizer
stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting global
warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?
-Bhushit
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Old 30-01-2008, 04:27 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

On Jan 30, 6:46*am, Bhushit Joshipura wrote:
I am a lay man - neither botanist, nor a global warming specialist.
I understand that
1. Global warming is caused by Carbon dioxide in atmosphere


false

2. Plants fix Carbon dioxide - and more plants, less global warming


plants use co2, like we yse oxygen

3. Plants can grow more (and more plants can grow) if soil has
Nitrogen


most plants get nitrogen from the air. some fix it from the soil.

4. Some plants can have symbiotic relations with Nitrogen fixing
bacteria


true

5. But grass family does not have such relationship


true

6. Grass family is botanically most successful colonizer of land


could be.

7. Using genetic engineering we can modify organism behaviors


sometimes successfully, most times not, and often with un-intended
results.

8. Bacteria are easier/cheaper to experiment than plants


Not necessarily


Now, if we can alter behavior of some type of the Nitrogen fixing
bacteria and make them symbiotic with grass (wheat, rice, corn,
millet, sorghum, sugarcane, bamboo)
1. A lot of Nitrogen gets fixed into soil
2. Soil becomes very plant friendly
3. That should kick up plant growth
4. That should kick up Carbon dioxide fixation
5. That should bring down global warming

Environment impact could be less than altering plant behavior to
become symbiotic with bacteria.

At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in fertilizer
stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting global
warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?
-Bhushit


Who caes if someone is working on this. Your first statement, whch all
subsequent statements depend on, is FALSE.

You've just wasted your time and mine.
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Old 30-01-2008, 07:07 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?



Bhushit Joshipura wrote:
At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in fertilizer
stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting global
warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?
-Bhushit



BS J-- there is a recent issue of Science that deals with CO2 fixing
plants, bacteria and fungus that have GW capabilities--if I have time
I'll try and summarize it.

RL
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Old 31-01-2008, 12:42 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

On Jan 30, 10:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:
BS J-- there is a recent issue of Science that deals with CO2 fixing
plants, bacteria and fungus that have GW capabilities--if I have time
I'll try and summarize it.



Keywords: Vol 318 Dec 14, 2007 p. 1732

Fifth pathway of carbon fixation found in organism Metallosphaera.
Also found in autotrophic organisms, Bacteria, Eurkarya (Calvin 1961
was first, Evans 1966 was second, 1980s gram-positive bacteria and
methane-forming archaea was third; Chloroflexus green-sulfer bacterium
was fourth, and now Berg et al 318 Science 1782 is fifth pathway of
carbon fixation from CO2.

Long story short, which I'll report in a seperate post, you can use
five different ways to suck CO2 out of the air using microbes.

RL
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Old 31-01-2008, 02:32 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

On Jan 30, 4:46*am, Bhushit Joshipura wrote:
I am a lay man - neither botanist, nor a global warming specialist.
I understand that
1. Global warming is caused by Carbon dioxide in atmosphere
2. Plants fix Carbon dioxide - and more plants, less global warming
3. Plants can grow more (and more plants can grow) if soil has
Nitrogen
4. Some plants can have symbiotic relations with Nitrogen fixing
bacteria
5. But grass family does not have such relationship
6. Grass family is botanically most successful colonizer of land
7. Using genetic engineering we can modify organism behaviors
8. Bacteria are easier/cheaper to experiment than plants

Now, if we can alter behavior of some type of the Nitrogen fixing
bacteria and make them symbiotic with grass (wheat, rice, corn,
millet, sorghum, sugarcane, bamboo)
1. A lot of Nitrogen gets fixed into soil
2. Soil becomes very plant friendly
3. That should kick up plant growth
4. That should kick up Carbon dioxide fixation
5. That should bring down global warming

Environment impact could be less than altering plant behavior to
become symbiotic with bacteria.

At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in fertilizer
stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting global
warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?


If they aren't, they ought to be. Your facts
and reasoning are sound. This scheme could
produce increased food yields as a by product.
Lets see what the people on sci.bio.botany
have to say.

The keyword in your title is "help," you say,
"help fight global warming." There is no one
fix that will solve global warming. What is
needed is a variety of solutions each one
measured by how effectively it removes
greenhouse gas forcing.



-Bhushit




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Old 31-01-2008, 06:56 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

On Jan 31, 5:32*am, Roger Coppock wrote:

The keyword in your title is "help," you say,
"help fight global warming." *There is no one
fix that will solve global warming. *What is
needed is a variety of solutions each one
measured by how effectively it removes
greenhouse gas forcing.


I have detected a small shift in your position Roger, that gives me
pause for hope, if you're acknowledging that we can engineer our way
out of any excess atmospheric CO2 earth... hope for you, not me.

RL
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Old 31-01-2008, 08:29 PM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight global warming?


"Tunderbar" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 6:46 am, Bhushit Joshipura wrote:
I am a lay man - neither botanist, nor a global warming specialist.
I understand that
1. Global warming is caused by Carbon dioxide in atmosphere


false

2. Plants fix Carbon dioxide - and more plants, less global warming


plants use co2, like we yse oxygen

3. Plants can grow more (and more plants can grow) if soil has
Nitrogen


most plants get nitrogen from the air. some fix it from the soil.

4. Some plants can have symbiotic relations with Nitrogen fixing
bacteria


true

5. But grass family does not have such relationship


true

6. Grass family is botanically most successful colonizer of land


could be.

7. Using genetic engineering we can modify organism behaviors


sometimes successfully, most times not, and often with un-intended
results.

8. Bacteria are easier/cheaper to experiment than plants


Not necessarily


Now, if we can alter behavior of some type of the Nitrogen fixing
bacteria and make them symbiotic with grass (wheat, rice, corn,
millet, sorghum, sugarcane, bamboo)
1. A lot of Nitrogen gets fixed into soil
2. Soil becomes very plant friendly
3. That should kick up plant growth
4. That should kick up Carbon dioxide fixation
5. That should bring down global warming

Environment impact could be less than altering plant behavior to
become symbiotic with bacteria.

At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in fertilizer
stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting global
warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?
-Bhushit


Who caes if someone is working on this. Your first statement, whch all
subsequent statements depend on, is FALSE.



ROFLMAO


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Old 31-01-2008, 08:30 PM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight global warming?


"raylopez99" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 10:07 am, raylopez99 wrote:
BS J-- there is a recent issue of Science that deals with CO2 fixing
plants, bacteria and fungus that have GW capabilities--if I have time
I'll try and summarize it.



Keywords: Vol 318 Dec 14, 2007 p. 1732

Fifth pathway of carbon fixation found in organism Metallosphaera.
Also found in autotrophic organisms, Bacteria, Eurkarya (Calvin 1961
was first, Evans 1966 was second, 1980s gram-positive bacteria and
methane-forming archaea was third; Chloroflexus green-sulfer bacterium
was fourth, and now Berg et al 318 Science 1782 is fifth pathway of
carbon fixation from CO2.

Long story short, which I'll report in a seperate post, you can use
five different ways to suck CO2 out of the air using microbes.


No, but this does mean that microbes can.


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Old 31-01-2008, 08:31 PM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight global warming?


"raylopez99" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 5:32 am, Roger Coppock wrote:

The keyword in your title is "help," you say,
"help fight global warming." There is no one
fix that will solve global warming. What is
needed is a variety of solutions each one
measured by how effectively it removes
greenhouse gas forcing.


I have detected a small shift in your position Roger, that gives me
pause for hope, if you're acknowledging that we can engineer our way
out of any excess atmospheric CO2 earth...


Everybody knows that, at least for some CO2. But is it the cheapest
route?


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Old 31-01-2008, 09:43 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

On Jan 31, 11:30*am, "Ouroboros_Rex" wrote:
Long story short, which I'll report in a seperate post, you can use
five different ways to suck CO2 out of the air using microbes.

* No, but this does mean that microbes can.


Well, argue with the editors of Science then Fool. Because they say
it can. It was in their global warming news section.

RL


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Old 01-02-2008, 12:03 AM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?


most plants get nitrogen from the air. some fix it from the soil.


Nope, that's backwards. Most plants rely on nitrogen that they obtain
from dissolved nitrogen compounds (NO, ammonia,nitrates, etc.) in the
soil. "Nitrogen-fixing" plants obtain nitrogne from bacteria that fix
it from the atmosphere (by converting N2 to ammonia.)

This is why trying to increase plant biomass usually requires input of
nitrogen fertilizers.

Yes, making other plants nitrogen-fixing would be spiffy, but you also
have to consider something else: Once a plant dies, all the CO2 that
has been sequestered in its tissues goes right back into the atmosphere
through burning, decay, etc.

M. Reed



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Old 01-02-2008, 04:39 AM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight global warming?

monique wrote:

Yes, making other plants nitrogen-fixing would be spiffy, but you also
have to consider something else: Once a plant dies, all the CO2 that
has been sequestered in its tissues goes right back into the atmosphere
through burning, decay, etc.

M. Reed


Is that supposed to be bad?

Isn't that called "carbon neutral"?

Dust to Dust, Air to Air.




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Old 01-02-2008, 04:49 AM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

Whata Fool wrote:
monique wrote:

Yes, making other plants nitrogen-fixing would be spiffy, but you also
have to consider something else: Once a plant dies, all the CO2 that
has been sequestered in its tissues goes right back into the atmosphere
through burning, decay, etc.

M. Reed


Is that supposed to be bad?

Isn't that called "carbon neutral"?

Dust to Dust, Air to Air.


Your final carbon tax....
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Old 01-02-2008, 07:08 AM posted to alt.global-warming,sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fight global warming?

"Ouroboros_Rex" wrote in
:


"Tunderbar" wrote in message
news:c8711601-6ebb-4c60-aa36-


... On Jan 30, 6:46 am, Bhushit Joshipura
wrote:
I am a lay man - neither botanist, nor a global warming specialist.
I understand that
1. Global warming is caused by Carbon dioxide in atmosphere


false


More recent research indicates that this may actually be true, the
question does remain about how much is caused by man.



2. Plants fix Carbon dioxide - and more plants, less global warming


plants use co2, like we yse oxygen


This is quite false. We use oxygen as an electron donor for the
reduction of hydrogen. Plants use carbon dioxide as a source of carbon
which is used as a building block for biochemicals.


3. Plants can grow more (and more plants can grow) if soil has
Nitrogen


most plants get nitrogen from the air. some fix it from the soil.



Most plants get nitrogen from the water, about 1/3 of plants get
nitrogen from the soil, and a small number use symbiotic relationships
to get nitrogen from bacteria that get it from the air.



4. Some plants can have symbiotic relations with Nitrogen fixing
bacteria


true

5. But grass family does not have such relationship


true


Several species of grass do have such a relationship, Dactylus
glomeratus is one.



6. Grass family is botanically most successful colonizer of land


could be.


The orchid family is right up there too.


7. Using genetic engineering we can modify organism behaviors


sometimes successfully, most times not, and often with un-intended
results.

8. Bacteria are easier/cheaper to experiment than plants


Not necessarily


Usually it is easier to play with one chromosome than with 40.



Now, if we can alter behavior of some type of the Nitrogen fixing
bacteria and make them symbiotic with grass (wheat, rice, corn,
millet, sorghum, sugarcane, bamboo)
1. A lot of Nitrogen gets fixed into soil
2. Soil becomes very plant friendly
3. That should kick up plant growth
4. That should kick up Carbon dioxide fixation
5. That should bring down global warming

Environment impact could be less than altering plant behavior to
become symbiotic with bacteria.


Actually, you probably have to alter both, as both partners need to
have some reliance on the other. For instance, most nitrogen fixing
plants produce a variant of hemoglobin that helps lower oxygen
concentration around the bacteria, which vastly improves the fixation
rate.


At the end we get a percent or two nitrogen less in the air, better
soil, thicker vegetation and cooler planet - with slump in
fertilizer stocks - all for cheaper than many options for fighting
global warming. Not a bad deal!

Is anyone working in this direction?
-Bhushit


Who caes if someone is working on this. Your first statement, whch
all subsequent statements depend on, is FALSE.



ROFLMAO



Not all the subsequent statements depend on the first one. For
instance, it is a good idea to reduce dependence on nitrogen
fertilizers, regardless of any effect it may have on atmospheric carbon
dioxide levels.

Sean

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from
http://www.teranews.com

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Old 01-02-2008, 07:30 PM posted to alt.global-warming, sci.bio.botany
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Default Can genetically engineered Nitrogen fixing bacteria help fightglobal warming?

This is a very complicated "what if" question. I doubt engineering
plants to fix nitrogen would have a major impact on global warming for
the following reasons:

1. Plant nitrogen fixation requires a lot of photosynthetic energy.
Plants that naturally fix nitrogen often produce less dry matter if
they have to fix all their own nitrogen than when they are fertilized
with nitrogen.

2. The main reason to engineer plants to fix nitrogen is to save on
the cost of fertilizers. Fertilizer production uses a lot of fossil
fuel, and contributes to global warming, so there might be some
savings in fossil fuel use in fertilizer production. However, that
fossil fuel will simply be burned for something else given the
increasing demand for fossil fuels.

3. Plants that will be engineered to fix nitrogen will be high value
food crops such as corn, wheat and rice. The biomass those food plants
produce is simply plowed under or burned each season so no carbon
dioxide is permanently removed from the air.

4. Plant growth is often limited by factors other than nitrogen,
especially water, temperature, other mineral nutrients, insects, plant
diseases, etc. Plants engineered to fix nitrogen will not
automatically have greater growth rates than nonengineered plants.

5. Fighting global warming by sequestering recently produced plant dry
matter cannot have a significant impact because we are burning fossil
fuels and lowering the world's photosynthetic capacity via forest
destruction, building, paving, etc. at such a rapid rate. One estimate
is that one gallon of gasoline required 98 tons of buried plant
matter.

"Bad Mileage: 98 tons of plants per gallon"
http://www.innovations-report.de/htm...cht-22773.html

David R. Hershey
http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/hershey/bio.htm
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