?? evidence for precolombian dhaturas on the indian subcontinent ??
in the western group temples of khajuraho in a corner of the grounds sits the kandariya mahadeva temple i came across the temple in a recent road trip across northern india and was excited because i thought it might hold scenes from the devi mahatmyam my favorite part of all the puranas this was a mysterious temple menacing from afar but strangely attractive inviting like a poison outside beneath the temple placard advertising its importance to the tourist i saw the distinctive trumpet of a datura metel bush http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/kan...deva-metel.JPG i had been noticing daturas through the road trip and earlier had shot a strand of datura stramonium outside in orchha http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/str...niumOrchha.JPG i have a deep love for the entire solanaceous family and grow metels and stramoniums in my garden so there were no difficulties identifying these plants but i did not realise at first what secrets this simple fact might reveal the kandariya mahadeva temple held more explicit and more various the erotic tantric sculptures the khajuraho temples are famous for and more scenes from the ancient epics seemed detailed stepping into the inner sanctum after paying respects to the central lingam i followed the relief all around the pradakshinathapa until i suddenly saw http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/wideClearPhlash.JPG although certainly no expert in hindu iconography i felt certain that this was a depiction of durga slaying mahishasura from the second or middle charita of the devi mahatmyam http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clearPhlashPhoto.JPG but if you take a look at the upper right of the pictures (durga's left shoulder) you will notice some kind of trumpet flower or fabric arrangement http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clo...tueTrumpet.JPG http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/underneathStone.JPG http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/beneathDimensional.JPG to me this seemed a likely datura representation but this is where i get pretty much useless now i can recognise many of the traditional weapons she is supposed to be holding i see the sword in her right hand diagonal behind her back and i see scepter down the conch shell hiding in the betweenness of the right arms the sudarshan-chakra discus in the uppermost right i see her shield others appear missing in the broken arms but it seems likely that the datura-looking thing corresponds to what is also common in iconography as her lotus flower however that is certainly not a representation of a lotus flower it is not even closely resembling and i cannot think of any other botanical it might be now i also know that there is a strong tradition associating daturas with shiva and kali/durga and i know there is some historical use by thuggees but i also know that the thuggee are not definitively precolombian and the "traditional" explanation for datura in india is misassignment of other botanicals through linguistic transference because datura like many other solanaceous plants like tomatos and chiles are new world plants there were no known trade routes which could have brought it to india precolumbus orthodoxy claims no communication between old world and the new a datura in a tenth century temple would indicate something quite remarkable ^..^ but of course it would not be anything definitive seeds can travel without human intervention there are always other explanations and of course i've heard of the cocaine and tobacco the mass-spec found in egypt what do you think? what else could this piece of statuary represent? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar |
?? evidence for precolombian dhaturas on the indian subcontinent??
On Apr 15, 7:51 am, galathaea wrote:
in the western group temples of khajuraho in a corner of the grounds sits the kandariya mahadeva temple i came across the temple in a recent road trip across northern india and was excited because i thought it might hold scenes from the devi mahatmyam my favorite part of all the puranas this was a mysterious temple menacing from afar but strangely attractive inviting like a poison outside beneath the temple placard advertising its importance to the tourist i saw the distinctive trumpet of a datura metel bush http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/kan...deva-metel.JPG i had been noticing daturas through the road trip and earlier had shot a strand of datura stramonium outside in orchha http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/str...niumOrchha.JPG i have a deep love for the entire solanaceous family and grow metels and stramoniums in my garden so there were no difficulties identifying these plants but i did not realise at first what secrets this simple fact might reveal the kandariya mahadeva temple held more explicit and more various the erotic tantric sculptures the khajuraho temples are famous for and more scenes from the ancient epics seemed detailed stepping into the inner sanctum after paying respects to the central lingam i followed the relief all around the pradakshinathapa until i suddenly saw http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/wideClearPhlash.JPG although certainly no expert in hindu iconography i felt certain that this was a depiction of durga slaying mahishasura from the second or middle charita of the devi mahatmyam http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clearPhlashPhoto.JPG but if you take a look at the upper right of the pictures (durga's left shoulder) you will notice some kind of trumpet flower or fabric arrangement http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clo...imensional.JPG to me this seemed a likely datura representation but this is where i get pretty much useless now i can recognise many of the traditional weapons she is supposed to be holding i see the sword in her right hand diagonal behind her back and i see scepter down the conch shell hiding in the betweenness of the right arms the sudarshan-chakra discus in the uppermost right i see her shield others appear missing in the broken arms but it seems likely that the datura-looking thing corresponds to what is also common in iconography as her lotus flower however that is certainly not a representation of a lotus flower it is not even closely resembling and i cannot think of any other botanical it might be now i also know that there is a strong tradition associating daturas with shiva and kali/durga and i know there is some historical use by thuggees but i also know that the thuggee are not definitively precolombian and the "traditional" explanation for datura in india is misassignment of other botanicals through linguistic transference because datura like many other solanaceous plants like tomatos and chiles are new world plants there were no known trade routes which could have brought it to india precolumbus orthodoxy claims no communication between old world and the new a datura in a tenth century temple would indicate something quite remarkable ^..^ but of course it would not be anything definitive seeds can travel without human intervention there are always other explanations and of course i've heard of the cocaine and tobacco the mass-spec found in egypt what do you think? what else could this piece of statuary represent? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar Even though Dhatura flower is said to be most liked by Shiva, have hardly seen it being offered to Shiva in a temple in Ahmedabad near where I lived for 8 years from 1955 to 1962. Nor even Karen flower (bushes for which grow some ten feet high, flowers could be red or yellow, Yellow flower bush-tree give fruits in shape of pear though small in size. Yellow Karen is somewhat like small dhatura while red Karen flower is multipetal flower like rose. tree-bush of both have thick narrow long leaves. Both kinds give white sap). Do dhatura thorny round pods have any medicinal value? www.dmjoshi.org |
?? evidence for precolombian dhaturas on the indian subcontinent??
On Apr 15, 1:40 am, Romanise wrote:
Do dhatura thorny round pods have any medicinal value? all parts of the plant contain significant levels of atropine and scopolamine and the plant has been a major part of many culture's pharmacopoeia the leaves and seed pods do have larger concentrations compared to the rest of the plant but all plant parts can potentially be lethal both atropine and scopolamine are anticholinergic (muscarinic) from the general action of the tropane alkaloids and each have found use in western medicine scopolamine is more narcotic causing dissociation with mild euphoria whereas atropine is more of a deliriant with greater body discomfort / distress (fever, dry mouth, blindness, itchiness, ...) new world use is quite spread and diverse and includes many other solanaceous species with similar chemistry (and similar appearance - the trumpet is very distinctively solanaceous) they still tie their kids up to latua trees in places of south america -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar |
?? evidence for precolombian dhaturas on the indian subcontinent??
On Apr 14, 11:51 pm, galathaea wrote:
in the western group temples of khajuraho in a corner of the grounds sits the kandariya mahadeva temple i came across the temple in a recent road trip across northern india and was excited because i thought it might hold scenes from the devi mahatmyam my favorite part of all the puranas this was a mysterious temple menacing from afar but strangely attractive inviting like a poison outside beneath the temple placard advertising its importance to the tourist i saw the distinctive trumpet of a datura metel bush http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/kan...deva-metel.JPG i had been noticing daturas through the road trip and earlier had shot a strand of datura stramonium outside in orchha http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/str...niumOrchha.JPG i have a deep love for the entire solanaceous family and grow metels and stramoniums in my garden so there were no difficulties identifying these plants but i did not realise at first what secrets this simple fact might reveal the kandariya mahadeva temple held more explicit and more various the erotic tantric sculptures the khajuraho temples are famous for and more scenes from the ancient epics seemed detailed stepping into the inner sanctum after paying respects to the central lingam i followed the relief all around the pradakshinathapa until i suddenly saw http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/wideClearPhlash.JPG although certainly no expert in hindu iconography i felt certain that this was a depiction of durga slaying mahishasura from the second or middle charita of the devi mahatmyam http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clearPhlashPhoto.JPG but if you take a look at the upper right of the pictures (durga's left shoulder) you will notice some kind of trumpet flower or fabric arrangement http://www.galathaea.org/dhatura/clo...imensional.JPG to me this seemed a likely datura representation but this is where i get pretty much useless now i can recognise many of the traditional weapons she is supposed to be holding i see the sword in her right hand diagonal behind her back and i see scepter down the conch shell hiding in the betweenness of the right arms the sudarshan-chakra discus in the uppermost right i see her shield others appear missing in the broken arms but it seems likely that the datura-looking thing corresponds to what is also common in iconography as her lotus flower however that is certainly not a representation of a lotus flower it is not even closely resembling and i cannot think of any other botanical it might be now i also know that there is a strong tradition associating daturas with shiva and kali/durga and i know there is some historical use by thuggees but i also know that the thuggee are not definitively precolombian and the "traditional" explanation for datura in india is misassignment of other botanicals through linguistic transference because datura like many other solanaceous plants like tomatos and chiles are new world plants there were no known trade routes which could have brought it to india precolumbus orthodoxy claims no communication between old world and the new a datura in a tenth century temple would indicate something quite remarkable ^..^ but of course it would not be anything definitive seeds can travel without human intervention there are always other explanations and of course i've heard of the cocaine and tobacco the mass-spec found in egypt what do you think? what else could this piece of statuary represent? after some literature research i have found http://ns1.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/dec2007/1227.pdf which illustrates some other statuary evidence so perhaps the conclusion is not half-baked i will email the authors with my own findings but i was curious about the scholarliness of my presentation for those of you who may be professionals in these fields how does the presentation of this find measure up? are the pictures satisfactory or should i have captured more angles? (i did, but they ended too blurry to post) is the identification of the representation accurate? was my specification of it's location accurate enough? should i have collected any other evidence? (situational, expository, supportive, ...) is the hypothesis of precolombian daturas a valid hypothesis on the evidence? now that i've seen the 2007 paper i am more comfortable that there are at least other kooks who think like me that is comforting but i'm still unsure how kooky the results really are... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar |
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