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Old 10-05-2008, 02:40 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl wrote:

In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:


For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow. About
8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the birch, which
became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed by a wave of oak
and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly, ash, beech,
hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little to do
with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of trees were
the main causes of the deforestation.


Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?

As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal and
cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available of course
- but only after the forests had made room for it.


No, it was always available...

If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is surprising
that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British, (English)
is merely being paranoid and specious.


Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests to
build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later plundered
this Irish land for its forests in order to finance one of his
expeditions."

"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in English
outposts."

Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!


Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut down
the trees of Ireland.

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries


What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in
nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.


Which ones precisely?

Nik

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Old 10-05-2008, 02:48 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

Westprog wrote:
jl wrote:
...
Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main
causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British,
(English) is merely being paranoid and specious. Britain had more
than enough forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!


As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from
the
Baltic countries - that trade certainly is mentioned quite
frequently
in various history books.


I wonder if anyone wrote a poem or song about Irish trees being cut
down. That would be interesting.


They did. I tried posting a link to it several times and for some
reason the posts got lost.

It's called "Bonny Portmore" and if you Google that you will find a
number of references. If you go to Youtube and search on it you'll
find a number of performances of it, and it's also a staple in the
"Highlander" movies and TV series.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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Old 10-05-2008, 03:01 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On May 8, 5:40 am, Billy wrote:
In article ,
(Way Back Jack) wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?


Long story short, the British built ships with which to conquer
and colonize the world.
--

Billyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.nethttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c7zU&feature=related


For some reason or other, I had been invited to a high level meeting
of a planned economy country dealing with timber products. I had had
some previous run in with Minister regarding the load of whiskey in my
office and had refused to use it. On the way in the door the Minister
asked me how I liked my whiskey.

"I'll take it neat"

For some reason I was placed at the head of the large boardroom table
with the Minister at the other. Someone next to me poured a large
measure into my glass so I quaffed it down, put my elbows on the table
in the manner of - right, now, let's get down to business. I know it
now, but did not then, that the culture was; that if the glass was
empty, it had to be refilled; but I quaffed that down as well. After
some time I realised that people had stopped talking in English and
instead used various other languages, which I didn't understand. I
started talking Gaelic, but all that could come out of my roundabout
brain was an old Irish poem 'What are we going to do when all the wood
is gone?...'

To my amazement, the Minister translated the poem into English - there
were English bankers at the meeting, and he gave the same explanation
for the removal of trees as your good self. When I looked at my glass
again, it was full to the brim. I can't explain it but it happened.

I have been experimenting with trees for fuel for about fifteen years
and, for the record; Eucl. Viminalis wins by a mile.


Donal





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Old 10-05-2008, 03:06 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On May 8, 11:15 am, mothed out wrote:
On May 7, 11:53 pm, (Way Back Jack) wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?


One factor is this:
The EU has been paying farmers to cut down trees for a long time.
I think it is now paying people to plant them again.


Yes, Administrative Cost........

Donal
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Old 10-05-2008, 03:12 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

In article ,
Someone else wrote:

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries


What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?


There are more countries around the Baltic than just Latvia.

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?


For the British fleet - when it was still built out of wood - certainly
until about 1860. I wouldn't get to hung up about the Spanish Armada - the
british fleet was quite small in those days, as were the ships.

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in
nearby Ireland?


I have no idea. I'm sure the procurement agents in those days were quite
competent and got their supplies from whoever could deliver the quality
and quantity need. The demands of a large fleet are quite astonishing -
even for simple things like wooden tackles.

Jochen

--

------------------------------------
Limavady and the Roe Valley
http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com


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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On May 8, 4:41 pm, jl wrote:
In article ,
Way Back Jack wrote:

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?


The Roe Valley has quite a few very nice woods, though a lot of the large
commercial forests are terrible and a scar on the countryside. Farmers
tended to fell trees everywhere except around their houses I think, hence
certain places have many fine old trees.

Our own house was build on the site of an old farm house and there must be
about sixty trees on our site, most of them near a hundred years old. Some
of them, particularly the ash trees are a wonderful sight.

They were planted as a windbreak, and do that job quite well.

Jochen

--

------------------------------------
Limavady and the Roe Valley
http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com



A combination of Spanish Broom and Tree Lupin make an excellent local
windbreak (scented).

Donal
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:07:25 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Someone else" wrote in message On
Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:
"Way Back Jack" wrote in message

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it climate? Too
windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?


(snip) Ireland suffered from
ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come back as
pioneer species.

Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go together. As
the population grew the trees would have had to go,


In Ireland a whole culture had grown up around living amongst the
trees and it was this culture that was effectively destroyed by the
deforestation of Ireland wrought by the forces loyal to the English
crown...in their desire to obtain materials to build a fleet large
enough to beat/repel a fleet whose creation had likewise deforested
Spain...which of course is a much larger country than
Britain...Spain's total land area = 504,030 km² whereas Britain's is
244,820 km²...and Ireland's (the entire island of Ireland) is 84414
km²

or in some instances,
'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too. Ireland's
population exploded after the introduction of the potato and you can't
grow spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow more trees,
there would have been a strong disincentive to do so.


That is true.

Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of
potatoes in Europe...


Yes it did have more trees but even today Ireland has only 16.8% of land
that is arable. I don't know what the figure is for Ulster, but think it
would be higher.


There is a reason why Cromwell's men gave the inhabitants of Ulster
the choice "To hell or Connaught" that being that the land of Ulster
was preferable to the land of Connaught for farming...and underlies
the essentially economic reasons rather than theological ones for the
Irish conflict.

...so you're telling me that in the roughly 150 years between the arrival of the potato in
western Europe, including Ireland, from South America, and the Potato
Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it had
also become deforested?


Do read for comprehension. You clearly did not understand what I wrote.


I've addressed this elsewhere in this post.

In addition, some of your facts are simply wrong. The potato was introduced
into Ireland by about 1600


Right...after the 1588 Battle with the Spanish Armada...

so by the time the first cases of potato blight
were seen in 1816, so 200 years had passed not 150. The famine of 1845-1851
was the worst but not the only famine.


Did I claim it was?

Nah.

Ireland population doubled at the end of the 18th century in about a 40-50
year period till it hit 8 million.


So you're telling me that the population of Ireland in 1750 was 4
million people despite the fact that there were no censuses of the
entire population of Ireland until 1821?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html
http://www.data-archive.ac.uk/findin...on.asp?sn=3542

That increase did not come from grain.


I think that you're going to have to revise what you've said above.

Ireland's population today is now just over 4 million.


No, Ireland's population is more like 6 million...remember to compare
apples with apples and include the population of what is now known as
'Northern Ireland' in your figures because the figures for the census
of 1821 included all 32 counties...

Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns
incurred by the Penal Laws?

http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html


You're right I didn't mention them and that was quite deliberate.


Really you should have because the consequences of the laws pertaining
to inheritance and the selling of land have had long lasting
ramifications, consider:

"English Statute 1 Ann c. 26 (1702):
An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited
Estates in Ireland
Sec. 15. No papist, during the time of his professing the popish
religion, shall be capable to inherit, take or enjoy any other
forfeited estates or interest therein,"

and, in particular, this one:

7.04
2 Ann c.6 (1703):
An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery
Sec. 10. All lands owned by a papist, and not sold during his lifetime
for valuable consideration, really and bona fide paid, shall descend
in gavelkind, that is to all of his sons, share and share alike, and
not to the eldest son only, and lacking sons, to all his daughters,
and lacking issue, to all kin of the papist's father in equal degree,

The consequence of this was that the lots that were actually owned by
Irish people who chose to remain 'Papists' was that their farms became
smaller and smaller because the farms owned by Irish Catholics *had*
to be split up evenly among *all* their children as opposed to the
eldest inheriting the farm with the younger ones either being married
off, sent into the Clergy or the Military as was traditional prior to
the imposition of the Penal Laws... until potatoes were the only crop
that could sustain the family that lived upon the land...maybe I do
have a chip on my shoulder, maybe I don't but the point remains.

Perhaps you could knock that chip off your shoulder and explain how to grow potatoes
in a forest to feed a rapidly growing population?


Admittedly difficult but given that the naval battle between the
English and the Spanish occurred in 1588 was before the potato was
introduced to Ireland, as you claim above, 1600 and the trees had
already been largely cut down to build the ships that fought the
Spanish Armada in the name of the Elizabeth I the point is beside the
point...the trees were already gone...

Or on the Burren or a bog or some of the other non arable land?


Have you yourself ever actually been to the Burren?

Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet
of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the
timber to do so...

You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much
about the natural and human history of Ireland.


Perhaps I should say, don't seem to know much, in particular about the
impact of the penal laws and their long reaching historical
consequences...some of which are still in place right now...in the
form of inherited privilege...

And you appear to have reading difficulties


The lecturers at my University disagree with you.

so I will forgive your inability to draw a logical conclusion


Please indicate, using formal logic where it is that I make an invalid
inference.

based on your misunderstanding of what I wrote
or didn't write.


Of course a logically valid inference can be drawn from an incorrect
assumption/belief but it remains for you to demonstrate that I have
done this. I await with interest.

I know when my ancestors left Ireland, I also know why they left.


Ok, fair enough but does that have anything at all directly to do with
the deforestation of Ireland? Or the introduction and subsequent
dependence of the Irish Catholic population on the potato?

You know nothing about what I know about Ireland


Why then did you not refer to the impact of the Penal laws regards
inheritance?

nor it seems about the impact of the
potato on population growth of Ireland or indeed when the famines occurred


Claiming to know the extent of my knowledge is just silly...especially
considering that you've underestimated it. The infestations of the
fungus Phytophthora infestans occurred several times in the 1840's
with the consequences being particularly dire in 1848-49 given that
there had already been several years of crop failure...

or how long the Irish had been growing potatoes.


Do feel free to make up shit to suit your prejudices eh?

It was the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1530's in Peru that were the
first Europeans to encounter potatoes.

http://research.cip.cgiar.org/conflu...play/wpa/China

The potato (Solanum tuberosum L.) was introduced to Europe from its
geographic origin in the Andes of South America in the late sixteenth
century, probably in the 1570s (Hawkes 1992)

Hawkes, J. G. 1992. History of the Potato. In: P.M. Harris, Ed. The
Potato Crop: The Scientific Basis for Improvement. Second Edition.
Chapman and Hall. London. pp. 1-12.

Some claim that potatoes washed up in Ireland in 1588 as a consequence
of the Spanish Armada sinking off the west coast of Ireland...its
possible but not a certainty that the introduction was that
early...but...as I say above it is beside the point because the trees
that were cut down in Ireland were already cut down at that point.

Nik

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Old 10-05-2008, 04:48 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

Someone else wrote:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl wrote:

In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:


For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow. About
8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the birch, which
became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed by a wave of oak
and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly, ash, beech,
hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little
to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of
trees were the main causes of the deforestation.


Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?


NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own, but also
imported any woods for ship building mostly from Scandinavia.


As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal
and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available
of course - but only after the forests had made room for it.


No, it was always available...


Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.


If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is
surprising that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British,
(English) is merely being paranoid and specious.


Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests to
build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later plundered
this Irish land for its forests in order to finance one of his
expeditions."

"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in English
outposts."

Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!


Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut down
the trees of Ireland.

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries


What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in
nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.


Which ones precisely?

Nik

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Old 10-05-2008, 05:02 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
jl jl is offline
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

In article
A combination of Spanish Broom and Tree Lupin make an excellent local
windbreak (scented).


Thanks for the tip.

Mind you, our house is 200m high on a mountain and open to the South, East
and West - in fact we can see across Lough Foyle from the Donegal
mountains and the mouth of the Roe to the Sperrins. Some of the winds we
get - particularly from the West - are /very/ severe.

I tend to plant only those trees that I know will grow up here because
I've seen them elsewhere. Even the oak tree I planted three years ago
seems to be dying. Ash, larch and spruce on the other hand seem to be
doing very well.

Jochen

--

------------------------------------
Limavady and the Roe Valley
http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com
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Old 10-05-2008, 05:05 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

Someone else wrote:
On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:07:25 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

"Someone else" wrote in message
On

Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:
"Way Back Jack" wrote in message

TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in
those countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. Is it
climate? Too windy in Ireland? Sheep and/or other livestock?


(snip) Ireland suffered from
ice coverage during the Ice Ages so any trees there had to come
back as pioneer species.

Large numbers of people, 'modern farming' and trees don't go
together. As the population grew the trees would have had to go,


In Ireland a whole culture had grown up around living amongst the
trees and it was this culture that was effectively destroyed by the
deforestation of Ireland wrought by the forces loyal to the English
crown...in their desire to obtain materials to build a fleet large
enough to beat/repel a fleet whose creation had likewise deforested
Spain...which of course is a much larger country than
Britain...Spain's total land area = 504,030 km² whereas Britain's is
244,820 km²...and Ireland's (the entire island of Ireland) is 84414
km²


So, you would have enjoyed being beaten by the Spanish Armada and being
subjected to an Inquisition no doubt! - Such blether and rubbish you talk
Nik! See this:
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html
The world was once covered in forests which were indeed depleted for ship
building but also for Iron manufacture, and NOT mainly by the British, but
also by the Irish and every other advanced country that wished to build
ships for trade and for war, not to mention the slave ships as well, highly
specialised that those were, and for the manufacture of iron.


or in some instances,
'modern farming' methods were the cause of clearance too.
Ireland's population exploded after the introduction of the potato
and you can't
grow spuds in forests so even if there had been a desire to grow
more trees, there would have been a strong disincentive to do so.


That is true.

Ireland had extensive forest cover well prior to the arrival of
potatoes in Europe...


Yes it did have more trees but even today Ireland has only 16.8% of
land
that is arable. I don't know what the figure is for Ulster, but
think it
would be higher.


There is a reason why Cromwell's men gave the inhabitants of Ulster
the choice "To hell or Connaught" that being that the land of Ulster
was preferable to the land of Connaught for farming...and underlies
the essentially economic reasons rather than theological ones for the
Irish conflict.

...so you're telling me that in the roughly 150 years between the
arrival of the potato in western Europe, including Ireland, from
South America, and the Potato
Famine of the 1840s that Ireland's population grew so much that it
had
also become deforested?


Do read for comprehension. You clearly did not understand what I
wrote.


I've addressed this elsewhere in this post.

In addition, some of your facts are simply wrong. The potato was
introduced
into Ireland by about 1600


Right...after the 1588 Battle with the Spanish Armada...


By Raleigh, from a wooden ship! Made in England out of British Oak.


so by the time the first cases of potato blight
were seen in 1816, so 200 years had passed not 150. The famine of
1845-1851
was the worst but not the only famine.


Did I claim it was?


You usually do.


Nah.

Ireland population doubled at the end of the 18th century in about a
40-50
year period till it hit 8 million.


So you're telling me that the population of Ireland in 1750 was 4
million people despite the fact that there were no censuses of the
entire population of Ireland until 1821?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html
http://www.data-archive.ac.uk/findin...on.asp?sn=3542

That increase did not come from grain.


I think that you're going to have to revise what you've said above.

Ireland's population today is now just over 4 million.


No, Ireland's population is more like 6 million...remember to compare
apples with apples and include the population of what is now known as
'Northern Ireland' in your figures because the figures for the census
of 1821 included all 32 counties...

Why do you neglect to mention the impact on farm ownership patterns
incurred by the Penal Laws?

http://local.law.umn.edu/irishlaw/land.html


You're right I didn't mention them and that was quite deliberate.


Really you should have because the consequences of the laws pertaining
to inheritance and the selling of land have had long lasting
ramifications, consider:

"English Statute 1 Ann c. 26 (1702):
An Act for the Relief of the Protestant Purchasers of the forfeited
Estates in Ireland
Sec. 15. No papist, during the time of his professing the popish
religion, shall be capable to inherit, take or enjoy any other
forfeited estates or interest therein,"

and, in particular, this one:

7.04
2 Ann c.6 (1703):
An Act to prevent the further Growth of Popery
Sec. 10. All lands owned by a papist, and not sold during his lifetime
for valuable consideration, really and bona fide paid, shall descend
in gavelkind, that is to all of his sons, share and share alike, and
not to the eldest son only, and lacking sons, to all his daughters,
and lacking issue, to all kin of the papist's father in equal degree,

The consequence of this was that the lots that were actually owned by
Irish people who chose to remain 'Papists' was that their farms became
smaller and smaller because the farms owned by Irish Catholics *had*
to be split up evenly among *all* their children as opposed to the
eldest inheriting the farm with the younger ones either being married
off, sent into the Clergy or the Military as was traditional prior to
the imposition of the Penal Laws... until potatoes were the only crop
that could sustain the family that lived upon the land...maybe I do
have a chip on my shoulder, maybe I don't but the point remains.

Perhaps you could knock that chip off your shoulder and explain how
to grow potatoes in a forest to feed a rapidly growing population?


Admittedly difficult but given that the naval battle between the
English and the Spanish occurred in 1588 was before the potato was
introduced to Ireland, as you claim above, 1600 and the trees had
already been largely cut down to build the ships that fought the
Spanish Armada in the name of the Elizabeth I the point is beside the
point...the trees were already gone...

Or on the Burren or a bog or some of the other non arable land?


Have you yourself ever actually been to the Burren?

Also you neglect to mention that the English desire to build a fleet
of warships to fight the Spanish Armada and where they obtained the
timber to do so...

You may (or may not) know a lot about Botany but you don't know much
about the natural and human history of Ireland.


Perhaps I should say, don't seem to know much, in particular about the
impact of the penal laws and their long reaching historical
consequences...some of which are still in place right now...in the
form of inherited privilege...

And you appear to have reading difficulties


The lecturers at my University disagree with you.

so I will forgive your inability to draw a logical conclusion


Please indicate, using formal logic where it is that I make an invalid
inference.

based on your misunderstanding of what I wrote
or didn't write.


Of course a logically valid inference can be drawn from an incorrect
assumption/belief but it remains for you to demonstrate that I have
done this. I await with interest.

I know when my ancestors left Ireland, I also know why they left.


Ok, fair enough but does that have anything at all directly to do with
the deforestation of Ireland? Or the introduction and subsequent
dependence of the Irish Catholic population on the potato?

You know nothing about what I know about Ireland


Why then did you not refer to the impact of the Penal laws regards
inheritance?

nor it seems about the impact of the
potato on population growth of Ireland or indeed when the famines
occurred


Claiming to know the extent of my knowledge is just silly...especially
considering that you've underestimated it. The infestations of the
fungus Phytophthora infestans occurred several times in the 1840's
with the consequences being particularly dire in 1848-49 given that
there had already been several years of crop failure...

or how long the Irish had been growing potatoes.


Do feel free to make up shit to suit your prejudices eh?

It was the Spanish Conquistadors in the 1530's in Peru that were the
first Europeans to encounter potatoes.

http://research.cip.cgiar.org/conflu...play/wpa/China

The potato (Solanum tuberosum L.) was introduced to Europe from its
geographic origin in the Andes of South America in the late sixteenth
century, probably in the 1570s (Hawkes 1992)

Hawkes, J. G. 1992. History of the Potato. In: P.M. Harris, Ed. The
Potato Crop: The Scientific Basis for Improvement. Second Edition.
Chapman and Hall. London. pp. 1-12.

Some claim that potatoes washed up in Ireland in 1588 as a consequence
of the Spanish Armada sinking off the west coast of Ireland...its
possible but not a certainty that the introduction was that
early...but...as I say above it is beside the point because the trees
that were cut down in Ireland were already cut down at that point.


Bullshit. Your opinion only. See
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html


--
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh.



  #41   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2008, 05:14 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2008
Posts: 10
Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl
wrote:
In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:


For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow. About
8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the birch,
which became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed by a wave
of oak and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly, ash, beech,
hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little
to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of
trees were the main causes of the deforestation.


Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?


NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own, but
also imported any woods for ship building mostly from Scandinavia.


As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal
and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available
of course - but only after the forests had made room for it.


No, it was always available...


Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.


If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is
surprising that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British,
(English) is merely being paranoid and specious.


Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests to
build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.


Nonsense! : See
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html



http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later
plundered this Irish land for its forests in order to finance one of
his expeditions."


So? If the estates were his, then he had every right to do as he pleased. In
any case, how many ships? Possibly two at most? Not a lot of Oak involved in
that.Why do you isist on being such a begrudger against the English? After
all, without England, Ireland would not have progressed past the Iron age.
Technology, smelting iron, using wood for that? The largest industry in
Wicklow for many a long year was Forestry. Nothing to do with the English.


"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in
English outposts."


Your source?

Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!


Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut down
the trees of Ireland.


Bullshit. Over simplification and merely your own unsupported opinion. See:
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html


As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from
the Baltic countries


What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in
nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.


Which ones precisely?


Maybe you should use Google Nik, everyone else seems to!

ROTFL


--
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh.

  #42   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2008, 05:48 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2008
Posts: 20
Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On May 10, 4:02 pm, jl wrote:
In article

A combination of Spanish Broom and Tree Lupin make an excellent local
windbreak (scented).


Thanks for the tip.

Mind you, our house is 200m high on a mountain and open to the South, East
and West - in fact we can see across Lough Foyle from the Donegal
mountains and the mouth of the Roe to the Sperrins. Some of the winds we
get - particularly from the West - are /very/ severe.

I tend to plant only those trees that I know will grow up here because
I've seen them elsewhere. Even the oak tree I planted three years ago
seems to be dying. Ash, larch and spruce on the other hand seem to be
doing very well.

Jochen

--

------------------------------------
Limavady and the Roe Valley
http://www.jochenlueg.freeuk.com


They grow easily from seed, buy online and it's not to late. If you
use Eucl. Viminalis; plant them only a foot apart and in a group. They
will support each other in the wind (groups of two metres diameter)
and when the trunks are about eight inches wide they can be harvested.
Paint the cut on the living trunks with oil and they will sprout
again: same as Salix Viminalis (Osier Willow). Tree Lupin is sown by
aircraft in some parts of the world and their roots go sown about
twenty feet (stops soil erosion) - also Spanish Broom and Tree Lupin
are legumes and produce nitrogen.

Donal
  #43   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2008, 06:07 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 520
Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

On May 9, 5:15*pm, Si wrote:
On 8 May, 13:49, Des Higgins wrote:





On May 8, 11:15 am, mothed out wrote:


On May 7, 11:53 pm, (Way Back Jack) wrote:


TV documentaries and travelogues reveal a lot of lush "green" in those
countrysides but a relative scarcity of trees. *Is it climate? *Too
windy in Ireland? *Sheep and/or other livestock?


One factor is this:
The EU has been paying farmers to cut down trees for a long time.
I think it is now paying people to plant them again.


Tree coverage in Ireland was at its lowest point a century ago. *The
EU has nothing to do with it. *In fact, Irish tree coverage has been
slowly growing since the 70s. *The trees disappeared for farming, fuel
and for building (including ships), centuries ago.


T'was the towel heads(pasted from an old SCI thread):

"Message from Q'il Q'as (Al Jazzbeera)

Q'adda yen Hamid fastha q'on Aymid?
Tha Tehran A'Q'ilta er Al'Awer.
Ni Al Traw'q ter Q'il Q'as nawat' Ayla'q,
Shni Q'lingfer A'Qling Ibn' Braw "


well spotted that man!!
It makes a change from blaming the Brits (apart from Gavin Bailey who
himself almost certainly chopped down several large native trees).

Des


Si

"Bog snorkler extraordinaire"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


  #44   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2008, 06:17 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jan 2008
Posts: 188
Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl
wrote:
In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be
given
wrote:

For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest
cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow.
About 8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the
birch, which became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed
by
a wave of oak and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly,
ash, beech, hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had
little
to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting
of trees were the main causes of the deforestation.

Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?


NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own, but
also imported any woods for ship building mostly from Scandinavia.


As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for
charcoal
and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was
available
of course - but only after the forests had made room for it.

No, it was always available...


Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.


If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is
surprising that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main
causes. (Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the
British, (English) is merely being paranoid and specious.

Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests
to build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.


Nonsense! : See
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html


Which, among other things, says "The deforestation effects of
increased shipbuilding was most visible in the change of Great Britain’s
landscape during the fifteenth to eighteenth centuries. Those who
traveled across Ireland at this time reported that one could ride all
day and not see a single tree, an image that contrasts sharply with
the carpet of trees that covered the area only centuries before
(Brown, Terry)."

So I guess your own source is spouting "nonsense".

http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the
peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making
ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later
plundered this Irish land for its forests in order to finance one
of
his expeditions."


So? If the estates were his, then he had every right to do as he
pleased. In any case, how many ships? Possibly two at most? Not a
lot
of Oak involved in that.Why do you isist on being such a begrudger
against the English?


You're the one turning "British" into "English".

After all, without England, Ireland would not
have progressed past the Iron age. Technology, smelting iron, using
wood for that? The largest industry in Wicklow for many a long year
was Forestry. Nothing to do with the English.


So what did they do with the wood?

"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in
English outposts."


Your source?

Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!

Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut
down
the trees of Ireland.


Bullshit. Over simplification and merely your own unsupported
opinion. See:
http://fubini.swarthmore.edu/~ENVS2/...restation.html


Which supports his view, not yours.

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from
the Baltic countries

What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees
in
nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.

Which ones precisely?


Maybe you should use Google Nik, everyone else seems to!

ROTFL


You really should read your own sources in their entirety before using
them to refute the statements of others.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #45   Report Post  
Old 10-05-2008, 07:52 PM posted to sci.bio.botany,rec.gardens,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.irish
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Posts: 2,265
Default Lack Of Trees In Irish And British Countrysides

In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:

Someone else wrote:
On Fri, 09 May 2008 22:35:45 +0000 (GMT), jl wrote:

In article ,
Hal Ó Mearadhaigh. wrote:
Someone else wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 16:57:04 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:


For those who think that Ireland never had significant forest cover
please see:

www.lhi.org.uk/docs/History_Project_1.pdf

"The first wave of colonisation was by birch, aspen and sallow. About
8 500 BC. pine and hazel spread northwards, replacing the birch, which
became uncommon. The pine colonisation was followed by a wave of oak
and alder. Lime and elm followed this, then holly, ash, beech,
hornbeam and maple."

Ireland's population grew to around 8 million. But that had little
to do with the state of the forests. Disease and over harvesting of
trees were the main causes of the deforestation.


Who was it that was responsible for that overharvesting?


NOT the British, who always had plenty of forests of their own, but also
imported any woods for ship building mostly from Scandinavia.


As Ireland had no coal, the needs of 8 million people for charcoal
and cooking woulkd certainly damage the forests. Peat was available
of course - but only after the forests had made room for it.


No, it was always available...


Peat bogs? of course. But they were also forested.


If local attitudes to trees were the same then as now, it is
surprising that any trees survived at all.

"That tree will knock that wall down - cut it down".

I've heard that sentence so often, it makes me sick.


Manufacturing, farming, and the
monies being made out of harvesting the peat bogs were main causes.
(Alas Bord Na Mona, so much for greed). Blaming the British,
(English) is merely being paranoid and specious.


Not if it actually was the British that cut down the Irish forests to
build the fleet that fought the Spanish Armada.

http://www.russellmcmurtrey.com/

"Ireland used to be covered with a lot of oak forest until the peak
British armada years where much of it was cut down for making ships."

and, interestingly,

http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/nucci.html

"The Queen gave Ralegh a massive estate in Ireland. He later plundered
this Irish land for its forests in order to finance one of his
expeditions."

"He exploited the natural resources of Irish forestry to fund his
expedition and targeted religious dissidents for settlement in English
outposts."

Britain had more than enough
forests of her own to build all the ships she wished!!


Maybe so / maybe not but the ruling class of Britain still cut down
the trees of Ireland.

As far as I'm aware Britain got most of it's marine supplies from the
Baltic countries


What? There were substantial Oak forests in Latvia?

For the ships that fought the Spanish Armada?

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to have felled the trees in
nearby Ireland?

- that trade certainly is mentioned quite frequently in
various history books.


Which ones precisely?

Nik

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure
Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service
in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server
Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Shame on you Hal. jl gave you a retort with citations to prove his
point. Until you do likewise, we can only assume that you are blowing
hot air.
--

Billy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related
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