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Isolated facts in biology/botany texts
Your comment "The present understanding of gene change can be briefly
stated as 'Cut, Copy, Paste.'" refers to transposons, which can cause mutations: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...ansposons.html http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult...Mutations.html Therefore, it seems you are agreeing with my statement that "genes and alleles do arise by chance via mutation." I still don't see how you can disparage one definition of evolution without explaining why and yet will not provide a definition you consider satisfactory. Your statement that the evolution definitions "confuse measurement with definition" is a bogus argument. Measuring a change in allele frequency is not at all like "measuring individual body weight" as you suggest. Human body weight is largely a function of environment, not genetics. I don't see that you have any basis for criticizing the American education system when you can't even provide a definition for evolution. Again, you are still confusing homogeneity and homozygosity. One reason why Coffea arabica is disease susceptible might be its homogeneity but that does not necessarily have anything to do with its homozygosity. A homozygous crop can be very disease resistant if it has the required disease resistance alleles. Too, heterozygous crops are often homogeneous, which increases their disease susceptibility. For example, in 1970, most of the hybrid corn cultivars in the United States had the same genes for Southern corn leaf blight susceptibility resulting in a devastating epidemic for that disease. You stated "As I stated a few posts back you will have to find another source to continue your education on the evolution of plant diseases." If you are implying that I view you as a source of education on evolution of plant diseases, you have proved that false time and time again because you provide no facts or references to support your hypotheses. I mainly end up just pointing out your errors. It appears that you either know very little or don't want to share your vast knowledge because you will not answer any of the questions I have posed, e.g. 1. "What is your definition of evolution if you disagree with the definition I presented, i.e. ."...evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."" 2. "Based on your contention that "extra genes/alleles have additional effects" how do you explain that C. arabica with 44 chromosomes is more disease susceptible than C. canephora with just 22?" 3. "...your hypothesis that homozygous species or cultivars will be more disease susceptible than heterozygous species and cultivars. Is that just something you thought up yourself or is there a website, book or reference where you got the hypothesis from?" David R. Hershey "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message ... David Hershey wrote If chance mutations don't give rise to new alleles in plant species, then how do they arise? Many alleles do not code for "normal" or functional proteins. The explanation is that the abnormal alleles arose via mutations in the existing normal allele. + + + It is a truism that our understanding of how 'nature' works keeps pace with the development in the technology surrounding us. For example human brain functions were once compared with cog-and-gear systems and are now likened to computers. The present understanding of gene change can be briefly stated as "Cut, Copy, Paste" Note that not all genes code for proteins. + + + You stated "Glad to see these two sites contradicting each other, when it comes to (mis)defining evolution ;-) Although it remains sad to see evolution so poorly taught". You cast aspersions on the two evolution websites I cited but give no substantive reasons why you berate them. If you find they contain inaccuracies why not point them out to justify your criticisms? What is your definition of evolution if you disagree with the definition I presented, i.e. ."...evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next."? Notice that the definition does not include natural selection because it is not absolutely required for evolution to occur, although natural selection very often does cause evolution. Allele frequency can change without natural selection due to genetic drift: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html + + + There are two major things wrong with these "definitions": - firstly they confuse measurement with definition. You can try and measure the progress of evolution by measuring gene / allele change. That is not evolution but only one way of measuring it. It is like expressing human progress over the last millenia by measuring individual body weight: this may be be useful data but presents only a small part of the picture. - secondly it says nothing about evolution: if you replace the word "evolution" by "genetic change" you can put this 'definition' into just about any Creationist textbook without anybody raising an eyebrow I had heard that the American educational system had gone to hell but if this is part of any textbook actually used in schools it is much worse than is usually sketched. I can only hope that the website presents it out of context. + + + You stated, "You also emphatically stated several times that of any one gene only one version was active, at least distinctly implying that you held an alternate theory on why polyploids often have "greater vigor than diploids", since you so heavily discount the obvious explanation that the extra genes / alleles have additional effects." I never said that "of any one gene only one version was active" always occurred. I only said that when you have a heterozygous condition, the recessive allele often codes for no protein. I even gave an example from Mendel's wrinkled/smooth peas. I pointed out last time that Coffea arabica is a tetraploid with 44 chromosomes and C. canephora is a haploid with 22 chromosomes. Based on your contention that "extra genes/alleles have additional effects" how do you explain that C. arabica with 44 chromosomes is more disease susceptible than C. canephora with just 22? + + + Coffea arabica is particular susceptible to a new disease developing since it is a crop that is both homozygote and homogeneous. I assumed you had caught that by now? + + + After all these posts, you still have provided no evidence beyond one example for your hypothesis that homozygous species or cultivars will be more disease susceptible than heterozygous species and cultivars. Is that just something you thought up yourself or is there a website, book or reference where you got the hypothesis from? David R. Hershey + + + As I stated a few posts back you will have to find another source to continue your education on the evolution of plant diseases. PvR =============================== "P van Rijckevorsel" wrote David Hershey wrote Chance is an important part of evolution because genes and alleles do arise by chance via mutation. Your own Hugo de Vries brought the concept of mutation into the Theory of Evolution. Without the genes or alleles provided by mutation, natural selection would have nothing to select for. Even clones, such as apple cultivars, often produce favorable mutations that result in new improved cultivars. + + + Actually there has been progress in science since Hugo de Vries, and it is pretty clear that mutations as such are not really the factor they were made out to be, unless one takes the position that any change in the genome is a mutation, which would be a self-redundant statement. How long it may last till the lay public realizes this is another matter. Creationism certainly does not help. As I have been trying to make clear there is a difference between species and cultivars. The fact that 'mutations' occasionally give rise to new cultivars has little bearing on what happens in species. The common link between species and cultivars are that they arise through selection, but both method and purpose of these respective forms of selection are greatly different. + + + I did say that natural selection was responsible for changing the frequency of alleles and genes. A change in the frequency of a gene or allele in a population results in evolution. It not uncommon to define evolution that way, e.g."...evolution can be precisely defined as any change in the frequency of alleles within a gene pool from one generation to the next." - http://atheism.about.com/library/glo..._evolution.htm There are also other factors besides natural selection that cause evolution: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbhdjm/course.../OneGenePP.pdf + + + Glad to see these two sites contradicting each other, when it comes to (mis)defining evolution. ;-) Although it remains sad to see evolution so poorly taught + + + The frequency of an allele often changes due to natural selection. For example, suppose one mutation in one plant gives rise to an allele X providing resistance to an often lethal disease. If that disease occurs widely in the population, then plants with the X allele will survive at a far greater rate than those without allele X. Thus, most plants of the species will eventually carry the X allele so its frequency increases greatly. Stop putting words in my mouth again, I presented no "alternative theory on polyploids". I don't dispute that polyploids often have greater vigor than diploids. However, that tends to contradict your hypothesis given that C. arabica is a tetraploid with 44 chromosomes, and C. canephora is a diploid with 22. + + + You also emphatically stated several times that of any one gene only one version was active, at least distinctly implying that you held an alternate theory on why polyploids often have "greater vigor than diploids", since you so heavily discount the obvious explanation that the extra genes / alleles have additional effects. + + + The key dispute has been your unsupported hypothesis that homogygous crops are more disease susceptible than heterozygous crops simply because they are homozygous. The only example you cite is homozygous Coffea arabica being more susceptible to disease than heterozygous C. canephora. However, that could be due to poor breeding or poor selection of C. arabica cultivars. It could also be that C. arabica by chance simply has fewer disease reistance genes or alleles than C. canephora. You have yet to provide any evidence that the homozygous status of C. arabica has anything to do with is greater disease susceptibility. David R. Hershey + + + Actually the key item was the undesirability of presenting isolated facts in botany texts, such as mentioning that peas are self-pollinated and that peas were used by Mendel, without explaining why self-pollination was essential to Mendel for carrying out his landmark experiments. There are far too many isolated facts and names going about, when it would not be all that much harder to teach concepts. PvR |
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