Mike Lyle schreef
I don't think what I said was matter of faith, surely? The
dictionaries have a better chance than I do of identifying the first
published use of a word, given that thousands of people like us are
constantly sending in verifiable dated references: this isn't
guesswork. When they quote examples from other dictionaries, they say
so.

Or do you mean they're not 100% reliable about the *meanings* of
words? Of course you have to use your judgement, as with any reference
book. No argument there.
Mike.

+ + +
I am not up to a detailed discussion of the relative merits of dictionaries.
Still, I went to the Merriam Webster on-line and typed in "redcedar" to see
when this was first used and if originally it might have been "red cedar".

However the (by now universally accepted?) "redcedar" is not even in there,
just "red cedar", which in all likelyhood is something entirely different
(probably Toona spp?).

Someone putting his faith in this dictionary would go badly wrong here.
PvR

Mike Lyle schreef
Meanwhile, Google has
17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red
cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but
they do give an impression of what people are typing.

+ + +
Caution here!
- redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar"
- while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar"
(4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of
conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of
statistics.

Just to give an indication:
+ cedar just the color
red 870.000 54.000.000
blue 200.000 2.000.000
white 1.240.000 61.000.000
black 810.000 84.000.000

I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such
thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway.
PvR
PvR

In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes
I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such
thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway.

Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits;
restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18.
Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'.

I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I
would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan
Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue
Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus
libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca)
Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue')
and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking
further.


--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article , P van
Rijckevorsel writes
I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such
thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway.

Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits;
restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18.
Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'.

I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I
would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan
Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkaensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue
Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus
libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca)
Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue')
and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking
further.


--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Stewart Robert Hinsley schreef
Googling for the phrase "black cedar" gives nearly a thousand hits;
restricting it to pages also referring to Thuja cuts it down to 18.
Black cedar seems to be current for Thuja occidentalis 'Nigra'.

I would understand "blue cedar" as Cedrus atlantica 'Glauca', tho' I
would use "Blue Atlas Cedar". Googling additionally finds Alaskan
Weeping Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Glauca Pendula), Blue
Cedar (Juniperus virginica 'Glauca'), Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus
libani 'Glauca'), Weeping Blue Cedar-of-Lebanon (Cedrus libani '(Glauca)
Pendula'), Oregon Blue Cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue')
and Blue Cedar (Cedrus 'Feeling Blue'), at which point I stopped looking
further.

--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

+ + +
Yes, this means descending into the depths of cultivardom.

Might be more interesting to look for the ratio between
Chamaecyparis nootkatensis and its competing names, although offhand I will
guess that it is no contest.
PvR

In article ,
P van Rijckevorsel wrote:
Mike Lyle schreef
That's interesting: the one-word form hasn't yet reached my corner of
the universe. I'll keep my eye open for it. Meanwhile, Google has
17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red
cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but
they do give an impression of what people are typing.

I don't know about *toona*, though I do eat *tuna*: you're probably
more up-to-date than I am , as I still place Western red cedar in
*Thuja*.

Mike.

+ + +
Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already have
a fair idea:
- redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It refers
to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata and
will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar", "red
cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a wood
is being discussed.
- red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is
red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam
Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar"

My point was that the dictionary consulted was absolutely clueless and off
by at least two orders of magnitude. Dictionaries are fine in their place,
but no use when you really need them (sort of like banks, only worse)

Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and
Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red
heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line
closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put
branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White
cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here.

I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 16:23:56 GMT, "P van Rijckevorsel"
wrote:

Mike Lyle schreef
Meanwhile, Google has
17,200 *redcedar*, of which many are web addresses, and 890,000 *red
cedar*. Google counts aren't the strongest evidence, of course; but
they do give an impression of what people are typing.

+ + +
Caution here!
- redcedar will generate only hits for "redcedar"
- while "red cedar" will present a cross-section of the sites using "cedar"
(4.000.000) and those using "red" (54.000.000). To draw any kind of
conclusion requires lots (and lots) of handwork or the application of
statistics.

Just to give an indication:
+ cedar just the color
red 870.000 54.000.000
blue 200.000 2.000.000
white 1.240.000 61.000.000
black 810.000 84.000.000

I am a little dubious about "blue cedar", but fairly sure there is no such
thing as "black cedar" and look: 810.000 hits anyway.
PvR
PvR


when using two words, put them into quotes, like "red cedar"

with that google gave me 163, 000 hits

"blue cedar" gives 1,420
of course the first three are for BnBs or Inns

with "blue cedar" -bed -breakfast -lodge -Inn -coaster (for roller
coaster" and you get 924

"white cedar" 42,200

"black cedar" 956
of course the first two are for pencils, then there are the boxes,
schools, etc.

P van Rijckevorsel wrote:
Well, to me usage in this case is not very interesting since I already
have a fair idea:
- redcedar is a US term, and dominates the official documentation. It
refers to eastern, southern and western redcedar. This last is Thuja plicata
and will be the wood referred to by the general US populace as "redcedar",
"red cedar" or (especially, and by a comfortable margin) "cedar" whenever a
wood is being discussed.
- red cedar in the same official US documentation will be a cedar that is
red, or more particular has red wood. This will usually be Toona (fam
Meliaceae), yielding "Australian red cedar" and "Asian red cedar"

Beverly Erlebacher schreef
Here in Ontario we call Thuja occidentalis (eastern) white cedar and
Juniperus virginiana (eastern) red cedar. The intensely aromatic red
heartwood of the latter has long been used to make chests and line
closets to deter moths. North of the range of red cedar, people put
branches of white cedar in with woolen clothes to deter moths. White
cedar is sometimes called arborvitae here.

I've never seen "redcedar", only "red cedar", until this thread, FWIW.

+ + +
As I noted above "redcedar" is a US term and has its stronghold in the
official documentation. In everything I have of the USFS (Forestry Service)
this is used, but my set of USFS-publications does not appear to extend
further back than 1948.

It is also in the field guides, both the Audubon and Peterson. Or to be
accurate: of the three Peterson guides, all by the same author, the modern
ones (Eastern, 1988, 1998 and Western Trees, 1992, 1998) use "redcedar",
while the old one (Trees and Shrubs, 1958, 1986) uses "red cedar". In
Western Trees the author notes that he would welcome Canoe-cedar instead of
Western redcedar.

The average US-citizen uses "cedar" (when not used as a general category)
for Thuja plicata (western redcedar) and "aromatic cedar" for Juniperus
virginiana (eastern redcedar). The use of "cedar" is connected to the size
of the stands rather than to a particular tree.

To call Thuja "arbor-vitae" goes back quite some time (perhaps long enough
for Mike Lyle's dictionaries to have captured usage? :^).
PvR